ability damage + ability penalty? [Archive] - Wizards Community

ability damage + ability penalty? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Burdell
09-05-06, 12:23 PM If a spell such as Ray of Clumsiness is used to "damage" a foes Dexterity, then another effect is used which imposes a Dex penalty, would those stack to reduce a foes net dexterity to 0 or less? (Assuming the numbers work out.)

Or is there something I missed somewhere which prevents a penalty from bringing a stat to 0 or below?
Paxar
09-05-06, 01:16 PM Yes, they would stack but the minimum stat is 0. See the DMG pgs. 289-290. A dex of 0 means that the character or creature absolutely cannot move at all (note that this is different from not having a dex score as some creatures might).
Nom
09-05-06, 10:45 PM Many spells applying ability score penalties explicitly state that the spell cannot reduce the score below 1.

You also need to think what you mean by "damage" stacking with penalties. Damage or drain changes the actual score (until healed or permanently). Penalties then modify the actual score to produce an effective score. Like hit point damage, damage and drain accumulate ("stack" is the wrong word) and can take the score to 0 (but not below). In contrast, penalties stack with other different penalties but not with other instances of the same penalty.
Burdell
09-06-06, 10:19 AM Many spells applying ability score penalties explicitly state that the spell cannot reduce the score below 1.

You also need to think what you mean by "damage" stacking with penalties. Damage or drain changes the actual score (until healed or permanently). Penalties then modify the actual score to produce an effective score. Like hit point damage, damage and drain accumulate ("stack" is the wrong word) and can take the score to 0 (but not below). In contrast, penalties stack with other different penalties but not with other instances of the same penalty.

Right, most of the "ability damage" spells (Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Clumsiness) in fact won't bring the score below 1. Thats why I was wondering about then using a different spell that applied a "penalty", such as Pyrotechnics, to finish the job and getting the stat down to 0, thus crippling the foe.
Nom
09-06-06, 11:36 AM Some people say that you should apply things strictly in the order they were added, so you could reduce it to 1 and then reduce it again by another effect.

I don't buy that, and instead apply all penalties simultaneously. If it says "can't lower it below 1" then if that penalty is applied the score must be 1+. If you can lower it below 1 without using that penalty then that's fine.

It's a similar logic to the "best for the defender" logic applied to a mix of resistances and vulnerabilities.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Burdell 09-05-06, 12:23 PM	If a spell such as Ray of Clumsiness is used to "damage" a foes Dexterity, then another effect is used which imposes a Dex penalty, would those stack to reduce a foes net dexterity to 0 or less? (Assuming the numbers work out.) Or is there something I missed somewhere which prevents a penalty from bringing a stat to 0 or below?
Paxar 09-05-06, 01:16 PM	Yes, they would stack but the minimum stat is 0. See the DMG pgs. 289-290. A dex of 0 means that the character or creature absolutely cannot move at all (note that this is different from not having a dex score as some creatures might).
Nom 09-05-06, 10:45 PM	Many spells applying ability score penalties explicitly state that the spell cannot reduce the score below 1. You also need to think what you mean by "damage" stacking with penalties. Damage or drain changes the actual score (until healed or permanently). Penalties then modify the actual score to produce an effective score. Like hit point damage, damage and drain accumulate ("stack" is the wrong word) and can take the score to 0 (but not below). In contrast, penalties stack with other different penalties but not with other instances of the same penalty.
Burdell 09-06-06, 10:19 AM	Many spells applying ability score penalties explicitly state that the spell cannot reduce the score below 1. You also need to think what you mean by "damage" stacking with penalties. Damage or drain changes the actual score (until healed or permanently). Penalties then modify the actual score to produce an effective score. Like hit point damage, damage and drain accumulate ("stack" is the wrong word) and can take the score to 0 (but not below). In contrast, penalties stack with other different penalties but not with other instances of the same penalty. Right, most of the "ability damage" spells (Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Clumsiness) in fact won't bring the score below 1. Thats why I was wondering about then using a different spell that applied a "penalty", such as Pyrotechnics, to finish the job and getting the stat down to 0, thus crippling the foe.
Nom 09-06-06, 11:36 AM	Some people say that you should apply things strictly in the order they were added, so you could reduce it to 1 and then reduce it again by another effect. I don't buy that, and instead apply all penalties simultaneously. If it says "can't lower it below 1" then if that penalty is applied the score must be 1+. If you can lower it below 1 without using that penalty then that's fine. It's a similar logic to the "best for the defender" logic applied to a mix of resistances and vulnerabilities.