Ability score drain [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ability score drain [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
shadowflamedancer
08-16-04, 04:03 PM If I cast touch od idiocy on a person, and rolled a 3, so they take 3 temporary int, wis, & cha damage, and then I cast bestow curse, to inflict a -6 penalty on their wis, what would happen. say they have a wis of 10 to start out with. Would it now be 1, or 4? If they don't stack, why not?
Seeker95
08-16-04, 04:23 PM In this case, there is no "stacking" involved. One is a penalty and the other is damage. Add it up -- the target is toast! :D
shadowflamedancer
08-16-04, 04:33 PM So if I use two different sources(spells) to damage abilities, they don't overlap(like in my previous example) but if I were to cast touch of idiocy twice, I would just take the higher penalty?

Sorry, but I'm a little conufsed about it and I want to know. I have a minor Villan who's strategy is to cast touch of idiocy and bestow cure to lower the int or wis(I havn't decided which would be better) of any NPC who sees him doing somthing "bad", so all they have is a very vague memorey, and not enough information to identify him. He can also cast charm person on the "dumbed down" NPC, and now he basically has a temporary animamal companion in humandoid form(I say animal cause they would be very not-smart).
Pentar
08-16-04, 04:34 PM Actually, Touch of Idiocy is an attribute penalty, not damage. And Bestow Curse doesn't seem to clearly list what the subtraction is, penalty or damage.

If the case is that Bestow Curse is a penalty, then it would take over the original Touch of Idiocy penalty. So the creature would be a -6 to WIS instead of a -3 (thus effectively WIS 4).

If the case is that Bestow Curse is damage, then (as I understand it), you calculate damage based on the true attribute value and not the penalized one. So, someone with a WIS of 10 gets hit with a Touch of Idiocy for -3 penalty. They have an effective WIS of 7, although their -real- WIS is still 10. They then get hit by some ability damage that makes them lose -6 WIS in damage. Their WIS is now 4.

The damage would overwrite the penalty, but it would last until the damage is somehow repaired (rest, Restoration type effect, etc.).

In both cases, the result is the same (reduction in Wis to 4) however, one is longer lasting/permanent over the other one.
Lord Lorac Silvanos
08-16-04, 05:03 PM Originally posted by Pentar
If the case is that Bestow Curse is damage, then (as I understand it), you calculate damage based on the true attribute value and not the penalized one. So, someone with a WIS of 10 gets hit with a Touch of Idiocy for -3 penalty. They have an effective WIS of 7, although their -real- WIS is still 10. They then get hit by some ability damage that makes them lose -6 WIS in damage. Their WIS is now 4.

The damage would overwrite the penalty, but it would last until the damage is somehow repaired (rest, Restoration type effect, etc.).

In both cases, the result is the same (reduction in Wis to 4) however, one is longer lasting/permanent over the other one.

This is not the case. It is like Seeker stated earlier: They "add up".
The penalty is applied to the ability score after it has been modified for damage or bonuses. (Note: you do not need to do it in this order)
shadowflamedancer
08-16-04, 09:52 PM So do penalties work the same way that bonuses do for purposes of stacking/overlapping? So a competence penalty(if there can be such a thing, lol) would stak with a profane penalty, but 2 profane penalties would just overlap? Sorry, for keeping this subject alive for so long, but I'm really not getting it. If there is some good quote on this stuff from the SRD, please use it. ;)
Seeker95
08-16-04, 09:57 PM Originally posted by shadowflamedancer
So do penalties work the same way that bonuses do for purposes of stacking/overlapping?There is a general division on this one.

Some view penalties to be "negative bonuses" which means they would have to follow stacking rules. Others view penalties as distinct from bonuses, and would "stack" regardless.

I lean toward the latter. After all, if we follow the former, and a character receives a strength penalty of -3 and a Strength bonus of +4, only the higher one would apply, since stacking rules would prevent them from both applying.
SALDAR
08-16-04, 10:02 PM SFD,

You are correct. Bonuses OR penalties of the same type do not stack, you use the highest one that applies. A bonus AND a penalty will always stack with each other. Damage from more than one source, on the other hand, always stacks, whether it is hit point or ability damage. Ability damage and ability penalties would also stack within the above limitations.

Ex: A -2 Profane penalty to Wis would stack with a -2 circumstance penalty to Wis and 3 points of Wis drain/damage but not with a -4 profane penalty to Wis. You would use the higher profane penalty, a -4.
A +4 profane bonus would stack with a -2 profane penalty for a net of +2 profane bonus.
Deep Blue 9000
08-16-04, 10:26 PM I think yall are making this issue more complex than it is. Penalties are never typed but always unnamed. So there's no such thing as circumstance or profane penalty. This means penalties always stack unless they both come from the exact same source (such as two touch of idiocies)
flyingmoose
08-17-04, 12:24 AM If your score was 10, you took 4 points of ABILITY DAMAGE and then had a -4 ABILITY PENALTY imposed, you'd have a score of 2. When the penalty wore off, you'd be back up to 6.

Penalties and Damage are not the same thing.
Lord-Gawain
08-17-04, 09:18 AM Deep Blue 9000 has hit the nail on the head. Penalties are almost always un-named. Unnamed penalties stack, as long as they are not from the same source (i.e. the same spell). In general the main thing to worry about is making sure that you don't try to stack a penalty from the same spell twice, when you are referring to different spells they will almost always stack.
shadowflamedancer
08-17-04, 01:08 PM but don't unamed bonuses always overlapp with every other type of bonus? (or in this case penalty)
Lord Lorac Silvanos
08-17-04, 02:02 PM No Shadiwflamedancer, unnamed bonuses stack with other types.

You should read the Rules of the Game Articles on the subject:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040120a
Seeker95
08-17-04, 03:32 PM Thanks for clearing up my own understanding. It fits with both the core rules *and* common sense. :D
Lord Lorac Silvanos
08-17-04, 04:13 PM Behold!
We shall rejoice for the day is upon us,
the "Core Rules" and "Common Sense" overlap,
the "Core Rules" and "Common Sense" stack up,
as it has been foretold by the Seeker.
Seeker95
08-17-04, 04:38 PM Can I get an amen? :D
ballekalle
08-18-04, 07:00 AM Amen.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
shadowflamedancer 08-16-04, 04:03 PM	If I cast touch od idiocy on a person, and rolled a 3, so they take 3 temporary int, wis, & cha damage, and then I cast bestow curse, to inflict a -6 penalty on their wis, what would happen. say they have a wis of 10 to start out with. Would it now be 1, or 4? If they don't stack, why not?
Seeker95 08-16-04, 04:23 PM	In this case, there is no "stacking" involved. One is a penalty and the other is damage. Add it up -- the target is toast! :D
shadowflamedancer 08-16-04, 04:33 PM	So if I use two different sources(spells) to damage abilities, they don't overlap(like in my previous example) but if I were to cast touch of idiocy twice, I would just take the higher penalty? Sorry, but I'm a little conufsed about it and I want to know. I have a minor Villan who's strategy is to cast touch of idiocy and bestow cure to lower the int or wis(I havn't decided which would be better) of any NPC who sees him doing somthing "bad", so all they have is a very vague memorey, and not enough information to identify him. He can also cast charm person on the "dumbed down" NPC, and now he basically has a temporary animamal companion in humandoid form(I say animal cause they would be very not-smart).
Pentar 08-16-04, 04:34 PM	Actually, Touch of Idiocy is an attribute penalty, not damage. And Bestow Curse doesn't seem to clearly list what the subtraction is, penalty or damage. If the case is that Bestow Curse is a penalty, then it would take over the original Touch of Idiocy penalty. So the creature would be a -6 to WIS instead of a -3 (thus effectively WIS 4). If the case is that Bestow Curse is damage, then (as I understand it), you calculate damage based on the true attribute value and not the penalized one. So, someone with a WIS of 10 gets hit with a Touch of Idiocy for -3 penalty. They have an effective WIS of 7, although their -real- WIS is still 10. They then get hit by some ability damage that makes them lose -6 WIS in damage. Their WIS is now 4. The damage would overwrite the penalty, but it would last until the damage is somehow repaired (rest, Restoration type effect, etc.). In both cases, the result is the same (reduction in Wis to 4) however, one is longer lasting/permanent over the other one.
Lord Lorac Silvanos 08-16-04, 05:03 PM	Originally posted by Pentar If the case is that Bestow Curse is damage, then (as I understand it), you calculate damage based on the true attribute value and not the penalized one. So, someone with a WIS of 10 gets hit with a Touch of Idiocy for -3 penalty. They have an effective WIS of 7, although their -real- WIS is still 10. They then get hit by some ability damage that makes them lose -6 WIS in damage. Their WIS is now 4. The damage would overwrite the penalty, but it would last until the damage is somehow repaired (rest, Restoration type effect, etc.). In both cases, the result is the same (reduction in Wis to 4) however, one is longer lasting/permanent over the other one. This is not the case. It is like Seeker stated earlier: They "add up". The penalty is applied to the ability score after it has been modified for damage or bonuses. (Note: you do not need to do it in this order)
shadowflamedancer 08-16-04, 09:52 PM	So do penalties work the same way that bonuses do for purposes of stacking/overlapping? So a competence penalty(if there can be such a thing, lol) would stak with a profane penalty, but 2 profane penalties would just overlap? Sorry, for keeping this subject alive for so long, but I'm really not getting it. If there is some good quote on this stuff from the SRD, please use it. ;)
Seeker95 08-16-04, 09:57 PM	Originally posted by shadowflamedancer So do penalties work the same way that bonuses do for purposes of stacking/overlapping?There is a general division on this one. Some view penalties to be "negative bonuses" which means they would have to follow stacking rules. Others view penalties as distinct from bonuses, and would "stack" regardless. I lean toward the latter. After all, if we follow the former, and a character receives a strength penalty of -3 and a Strength bonus of +4, only the higher one would apply, since stacking rules would prevent them from both applying.
SALDAR 08-16-04, 10:02 PM	SFD, You are correct. Bonuses OR penalties of the same type do not stack, you use the highest one that applies. A bonus AND a penalty will always stack with each other. Damage from more than one source, on the other hand, always stacks, whether it is hit point or ability damage. Ability damage and ability penalties would also stack within the above limitations. Ex: A -2 Profane penalty to Wis would stack with a -2 circumstance penalty to Wis and 3 points of Wis drain/damage but not with a -4 profane penalty to Wis. You would use the higher profane penalty, a -4. A +4 profane bonus would stack with a -2 profane penalty for a net of +2 profane bonus.
Deep Blue 9000 08-16-04, 10:26 PM	I think yall are making this issue more complex than it is. Penalties are never typed but always unnamed. So there's no such thing as circumstance or profane penalty. This means penalties always stack unless they both come from the exact same source (such as two touch of idiocies)
flyingmoose 08-17-04, 12:24 AM	If your score was 10, you took 4 points of ABILITY DAMAGE and then had a -4 ABILITY PENALTY imposed, you'd have a score of 2. When the penalty wore off, you'd be back up to 6. Penalties and Damage are not the same thing.
Lord-Gawain 08-17-04, 09:18 AM	Deep Blue 9000 has hit the nail on the head. Penalties are almost always un-named. Unnamed penalties stack, as long as they are not from the same source (i.e. the same spell). In general the main thing to worry about is making sure that you don't try to stack a penalty from the same spell twice, when you are referring to different spells they will almost always stack.
shadowflamedancer 08-17-04, 01:08 PM	but don't unamed bonuses always overlapp with every other type of bonus? (or in this case penalty)
Lord Lorac Silvanos 08-17-04, 02:02 PM	No Shadiwflamedancer, unnamed bonuses stack with other types. You should read the Rules of the Game Articles on the subject: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040120a
Seeker95 08-17-04, 03:32 PM	Thanks for clearing up my own understanding. It fits with both the core rules and common sense. :D
Lord Lorac Silvanos 08-17-04, 04:13 PM	Behold! We shall rejoice for the day is upon us, the "Core Rules" and "Common Sense" overlap, the "Core Rules" and "Common Sense" stack up, as it has been foretold by the Seeker.
Seeker95 08-17-04, 04:38 PM	Can I get an amen? :D
ballekalle 08-18-04, 07:00 AM	Amen.