Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GalaGalaxia 04-26-08, 01:26 PM	I know that the spell description for spells like Owl's Wisdom or Eagle's Splendor specifically state that this temporary ability score enhancement has no effect on bonus spells received. But, spells like Draconic Might (SpC 72) lack this blurb. Is there a non-spell rule somewhere else that governs this? Or, would Draconic Might indeed "break the norm" and grant bonus spells?
Jay_Ibero_911 04-26-08, 01:41 PM	I know that the spell description for spells like Owl's Wisdom or Eagle's Splendor specifically state that this temporary ability score enhancement has no effect on bonus spells received. But, spells like Draconic Might (SpC 72) lack this blurb. Is there a non-spell rule somewhere else that governs this? Or, would Draconic Might indeed "break the norm" and grant bonus spells? Unless you could somehow get the spell to last all day, it wouldn't benefit you. If you had the spell active durring your entire period of spell preparation/recover, then you would have bonus spells until draonic might expired, but even if you used those bonus spells before it expired, once it did expire you would just lose spells you still had available of the same level to make up for it. The only possible way to benefit from a non-continuous ability boost to spellcasting would be if you cast ALL your spells of the levels you are getting bonus spells from, because then once the boost wears off you have no more spells of the appropriate levels to lose.
GalaGalaxia 04-26-08, 01:58 PM	So, Draconic Might as a persistent spell would grant you bonus spells, but Fox's Cunning, Owl's Wisdom, and Eagle's Splendor would not, even if you can get them to last you all day, since they are by spell description not granting bonus spells regardless of the circumstances.
Jay_Ibero_911 04-26-08, 02:02 PM	So, Draconic Might as a persistent spell would grant you bonus spells, but Fox's Cunning, Owl's Wisdom, and Eagle's Splendor would not, even if you can get them to last you all day, since they are by spell description not granting bonus spells regardless of the circumstances. Well while it would be a house rule, it would be a reasonable house rule to allow any ability boost with a 24 hour duration to grant bonus spells while in effect, just like the ability boosting items do.
GalaGalaxia 04-26-08, 02:07 PM	Or, for that matter, to houserule that regardless of duration, unless it is a permanent effect it doesn't work, even if the spell description doesn't explicitly say so ...
Merestil Haye 04-26-08, 03:39 PM	If a benefit is granted, it is granted for all purposes that the source of the benefit does not explicitly exclude. Owls Wisdom et al cannot grant bonus spells, even if you could make them last 24 hours or more (which would require a caster of CL720+ and Extend Spell, since they are not eligible for Persist Spell. Where you'll find one of them is beyond me, and if you did he's likely to laugh himself silly at the idea of being your personal spell enhancer.) Draconic Might would grant the bonus spell slots if it could be made to last long enough, but since it is not Persistible either, you'd have the same problems making it last long enough. It's cheaper to buy a Cloak of Charisma.
groveborn 04-26-08, 11:00 PM	There was a very long and heated discussion on these lines, though in a different way, a few months back. The way the bonuses work is that after you take the needed rest, you have a certain number of slots for your level, and bonus slots for your high casting stat. If you're using a temporary method of increasing your casting stat, always keep your bonus slots seperate from your class level slots, as a reduction to your stat will result in loss of your bonus slots. The major issue may be when you consider that divine casters don't really need to rest to gain spells, but they have their ritual to consider. Therefore, the question is less "will it work", but rather "how long must the effect be active FOR it to work". 24 hours is the safest bet, with 8 hours at the outside. Since the spell in question does not quantify that it cannot provide bonus slots, I'd say that so long as it is cast either immediately prior to 8 hours rest for arcane casters, or directly prior to the divine caster's ritual, it'd work. This is a more serious predicament to prepared casters than it is to spontaneous casters, as the prepared spell will be lost even if the stat returns. The spontaneous caster just loses the ability to cast as many spells. The slots do not return, even if the ability to use them does. You treat it as though you just got those slots for the first time, and must rest. When a character is done resting and is ready to receive the spells per day allotment, consult table 1-1 on page 8 to determine all bonus spells. If they happen to still have a boosting spell on, yay. It has to have lasted during the entire 8 hours of rest, and for the entire ritual (preparation for lack of better terms) for it to be effective. Now, the background info is done, the nitty gritty. If the spell lasts any longer than 8 hours, you could use it immediately prior to resting, and you would, by RAW, be granted the spell slots. If you didn't use them before the spell expired (or was dispelled), then the benefits are lost. If you use them prior to losing them, congrats, you've made cheese. There are no specific rules on this, so one must make assumptions in the murky waters of which spells are held in which bonus slots, and which bonus slots have already been used, but generally D&D defaults to player's decision when such things present themselves.
GalaGalaxia 04-27-08, 02:31 AM	Groveborn, thank you for that excellent breakdown. ... which falls into the same category as gaining temporary hitpoints. If you have them -- great. They get used up first. If you haven't used them by the time they expire -- too bad. If they are used up, well ... you just benefitted from them. Be happy.
Jay_Ibero_911 04-27-08, 10:28 AM	Groveborn, thank you for that excellent breakdown. ... which falls into the same category as gaining temporary hitpoints. If you have them -- great. They get used up first. If you haven't used them by the time they expire -- too bad. If they are used up, well ... you just benefitted from them. Be happy. Actually Bonus spells are not used first like temporary HP. According to the FAQ if you use a stat boosting item to gain bonus spells and then lose the benefit of the item after caster, your spells currently available drop by however many bonuse spells you had. Do ability enhancing items (such as the headband of intellect, cloak of charisma, and periapt of wisdom) grant bonus spells to the appropriate spellcasters? The spells these items are based on would seem to prohibit it, but the only things specifically addressed in the item descriptions are skill points. Yes, you can get extra bonus spells if you have an item that increases the ability score that governs your spellcasting. To get the extra bonus spells, you must wear the item while resting to regain spells and all through your initial daily preparations for spellcasting. (Even characters who don’t prepare spells need to meditate a little while at the beginning of the day; see Daily Readying of spells under the Sorcerers and bards section of Chapter 10 in the Player’s Handbook.) If you lose the item, you immediately lose the bonus spell slots the item gave you, starting with any uncast spells you have of the appropriate levels. So lets say a 3rd level generalist wizard with 12 base INT has a headband of intellect +2. That gives him a bonus 2nd level spell slot, putting him a 2 2nd level spells per day. He prepares 2 acid arrow spells in those slots, and over the course of a day casts one of them. Then he walks into an antimagic field shutting down his headband, dropping his INT back to 12 so he no longer has a 2nd level bonus slot. Since he only has 1 uncast 2nd level spell remaining, he loses that one, leaving him with no 2nd level slots left.
GalaGalaxia 04-27-08, 06:51 PM	Interesting ...