Ability Score Penalty vs Damage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Ability Score Penalty vs Damage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
davorious
12-20-07, 11:57 PM Question about how “Ray of Enfeeblement” works. Specifically against creatures immune to damage to physical ability scores.

Example – Casting ‘Ray of Enfeeblement’ on a Vampire.

Undead Immunity states that all undead are immune to damage to physical ability scores (STR, DEX, CON), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.

‘Ray of Enfeeblement’ states that the subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels.

Closest I can find in the PHB or DMG is DMG-290 where it states that some spells or abilities impose an effective ability score reduction, which is different from ability score loss.

Using the ‘letter of the law’ the spell causes a penalty or reduction and not damage or drain. This means that creatures that are immune to damage to physical ability scores can still be affected by this spell.

Opinions?
Captain_Kobold
12-21-07, 01:36 AM Many of the creatures that are immune to ability damage such as Undead and Constructs, are immune to spells like Ray of Enfeeblement anyway. I cant think of any off the top of my head that aren't.

That specific spell aside, it is possible for a creature that is immune to ability damage to be given a penalty to an ability. Undead and constructs can both be entangled in a net for example.
risner
12-21-07, 01:42 AM Using the ‘letter of the law’ the spell causes a penalty or reduction and not damage or drain. This means that creatures that are immune to damage to physical ability scores can still be affected by this spell.

You can have a penalty unless you are immune to penalties.
Vampire isn't immune to penalties afaik, so it works.

It isn't clearly written what happens with some penalties (mostly state abiltities) when you reach 0 or less. Most (all?) of the spells limit themselves to 1 such that if the score lowers from other sources you end up still at 1 (the penalty reduces.) That passage isn't in the DMG state conditions, so DM fiat what happens.
Estand
12-21-07, 10:15 AM It's easier to think of "Penalty" as a negative Enhancement...

Stat Damage can be cumulitive, just like a weapon deals cumulitive HP damage.

Stat Penalty is similar to an Enhancement in the other direction. You take the more severe penalty not the accumilated penalty. So multiple Ray of Enfeeblements do not stack, rather you apply the best roll for it's duration.
Estand
12-21-07, 11:02 AM Sorry forgot to mention

Look at the immunites of the creature.
Then look at how the spell affects the intended creature.

Undead and Contructs have no mind. So mind affecting spells will not work. Nor do they have a life force (blood and mucle) that they rely on, so those types of spells will not work.

RoE is neither, so it may work. But let's further explore the idea...

Undead have no other immunites from what I see to this spell. So it will work. Just as Bestow Curse would work on most undead!!! I chose BC because it allows a Will save. Undead do have a Will save stat. BC is not mind affecting at all... rather it is a Necromantic effect, and undead are affected by Necromancy :D

Bot RoE will not work on a Golem. RoE allows SR roll to be made. Golems have inifinte SR with explicit exceptions listed for each golem type. Not all contructs are Golems so this immunity may not apply to them!!
Captain_Kobold
12-21-07, 12:45 PM Many of the creatures that are immune to ability damage such as Undead and Constructs, are immune to spells like Ray of Enfeeblement anyway. I cant think of any off the top of my head that aren't.
Sorry. I go that bit wrong. I thought Ray of Enfeeblement required a Fortitude save. Since it doesn't, Undead can be affected by it.

However, Constructs are still immune to it: As they are to all other Necromancy effects.
Estand
12-21-07, 01:08 PM However, Constructs are still immune to it: As they are to all other Necromancy effects

Construct subtypes are not immune to Necromantic effects...

Bestow Curse is a Will save Necro spell that allows SR and is not mind affecting.

Golems are a construct. But they have an additional quality: Infinite SR with exceptions to certain spells. therefore they would not be affected by Bestow Curse only because of the SR.

But "Effigy Creatures" as introduced in the Complete Arcane would be affected by Bestow Curse!!!
Merestil Haye
12-21-07, 03:17 PM Construct subtypes are not immune to Necromantic effects...Actually they are.

Construct is a type, and one of the traits of the Construct type is this :Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromancy effects.(Bolding mine)

All Constructs are therefore immune to spells of the school of Necromancy unless the creature has a subtype that removes that immunity, or the creature's racial description explicitly states that it is affected by Necromantic spells.

This extends to effects produced by SLAs and Supernatural abilities that mimic Necromantic spells.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
davorious 12-20-07, 11:57 PM	Question about how “Ray of Enfeeblement” works. Specifically against creatures immune to damage to physical ability scores. Example – Casting ‘Ray of Enfeeblement’ on a Vampire. Undead Immunity states that all undead are immune to damage to physical ability scores (STR, DEX, CON), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects. ‘Ray of Enfeeblement’ states that the subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels. Closest I can find in the PHB or DMG is DMG-290 where it states that some spells or abilities impose an effective ability score reduction, which is different from ability score loss. Using the ‘letter of the law’ the spell causes a penalty or reduction and not damage or drain. This means that creatures that are immune to damage to physical ability scores can still be affected by this spell. Opinions?
Captain_Kobold 12-21-07, 01:36 AM	Many of the creatures that are immune to ability damage such as Undead and Constructs, are immune to spells like Ray of Enfeeblement anyway. I cant think of any off the top of my head that aren't. That specific spell aside, it is possible for a creature that is immune to ability damage to be given a penalty to an ability. Undead and constructs can both be entangled in a net for example.
risner 12-21-07, 01:42 AM	Using the ‘letter of the law’ the spell causes a penalty or reduction and not damage or drain. This means that creatures that are immune to damage to physical ability scores can still be affected by this spell. You can have a penalty unless you are immune to penalties. Vampire isn't immune to penalties afaik, so it works. It isn't clearly written what happens with some penalties (mostly state abiltities) when you reach 0 or less. Most (all?) of the spells limit themselves to 1 such that if the score lowers from other sources you end up still at 1 (the penalty reduces.) That passage isn't in the DMG state conditions, so DM fiat what happens.
Estand 12-21-07, 10:15 AM	It's easier to think of "Penalty" as a negative Enhancement... Stat Damage can be cumulitive, just like a weapon deals cumulitive HP damage. Stat Penalty is similar to an Enhancement in the other direction. You take the more severe penalty not the accumilated penalty. So multiple Ray of Enfeeblements do not stack, rather you apply the best roll for it's duration.
Estand 12-21-07, 11:02 AM	Sorry forgot to mention Look at the immunites of the creature. Then look at how the spell affects the intended creature. Undead and Contructs have no mind. So mind affecting spells will not work. Nor do they have a life force (blood and mucle) that they rely on, so those types of spells will not work. RoE is neither, so it may work. But let's further explore the idea... Undead have no other immunites from what I see to this spell. So it will work. Just as Bestow Curse would work on most undead!!! I chose BC because it allows a Will save. Undead do have a Will save stat. BC is not mind affecting at all... rather it is a Necromantic effect, and undead are affected by Necromancy :D Bot RoE will not work on a Golem. RoE allows SR roll to be made. Golems have inifinte SR with explicit exceptions listed for each golem type. Not all contructs are Golems so this immunity may not apply to them!!
Captain_Kobold 12-21-07, 12:45 PM	Many of the creatures that are immune to ability damage such as Undead and Constructs, are immune to spells like Ray of Enfeeblement anyway. I cant think of any off the top of my head that aren't. Sorry. I go that bit wrong. I thought Ray of Enfeeblement required a Fortitude save. Since it doesn't, Undead can be affected by it. However, Constructs are still immune to it: As they are to all other Necromancy effects.
Estand 12-21-07, 01:08 PM	However, Constructs are still immune to it: As they are to all other Necromancy effects Construct subtypes are not immune to Necromantic effects... Bestow Curse is a Will save Necro spell that allows SR and is not mind affecting. Golems are a construct. But they have an additional quality: Infinite SR with exceptions to certain spells. therefore they would not be affected by Bestow Curse only because of the SR. But "Effigy Creatures" as introduced in the Complete Arcane would be affected by Bestow Curse!!!
Merestil Haye 12-21-07, 03:17 PM	Construct subtypes are not immune to Necromantic effects...Actually they are. Construct is a type, and one of the traits of the Construct type is this :Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromancy effects.(Bolding mine) All Constructs are therefore immune to spells of the school of Necromancy unless the creature has a subtype that removes that immunity, or the creature's racial description explicitly states that it is affected by Necromantic spells. This extends to effects produced by SLAs and Supernatural abilities that mimic Necromantic spells.