Abjurant champion = wierd? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Abjurant champion = wierd? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sareld
11-04-06, 07:42 AM It states in the description of the Abjurant Champion in Complete Mage, that ACs get X shield or armor bonus to AC by any abjuration spells they cast, and they usually rely an Mage Armor and Shield to survive. Now, remember that Mage Armor is a conjuration, and that Shield provides a cover bonus to AC, not a shield bonus.

Is this ability just totally worthless?
ZinFeir
11-04-06, 07:55 AM It doesn't say Mage Armor is Abjuration, it just says they rely on it to keep them alive.
Sareld
11-04-06, 07:58 AM Yeah, but the thing is that the kind of spells he gets his bonus to hardly exists. There is one abjuration spell in CM that gives +4 shield bunus to AC, thats it. Or am I missing something?
Thiez
11-04-06, 08:17 AM I believe I've seen a discussion about this before. I think it's save to assume that the people who created the PHB spells roll d% to decide the school of a spell :P

Anyway, feel free to houserule Mage Armor into Abjuration. It's hardly going to affect gameplay, except for giving a little bonus to the Abjurant Champion.
Forged_Fury
11-04-06, 08:45 AM <snip> and that Shield provides a cover bonus to AC, not a shield bonus.
What book are you reading?
Shield
Abjuration [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level (D)

Shield creates an invisible, tower shield-sized mobile disk of force that hovers in front of you. It negates magic missile attacks directed at you. The disk also provides a +4 shield bonus to AC. This bonus applies against incorporeal touch attacks, since it is a force effect. The shield has no armor check penalty or arcane spell failure chance. Unlike with a normal tower shield, you can’t use the shield spell for cover.
Maybe you're thinking of shield of faith which grants a deflection bonus to AC.

-FF
Osedox
11-04-06, 12:02 PM Even stranger still is the fact that the sample character Caspain LaMont has a +9 Armor bonus to AC in his stat block. And worst than that I have seen an official response from WotC claiming that Mage Armor shoulsnt be effected by any of the Abjurant Champions abilities. So they are clearly loco, my best guess is to make Mage Armor Abjuration, and try to forget the whole bother.
Tyler Do'Urden
11-04-06, 12:07 PM Or just not buy Complete Mage.

But yeah, my DM noticed this the day after he got the book. Then again he proofreads for a living.
Iver Gearsham
11-04-06, 09:53 PM 5th lvl Abjurant Champion gets +5 to AC casts Shield +4 total +9 no suprise.
I believe if he casts Protection from X spell he could add 7 points of Deflection to that 2 from the spell and 5 from his abilitys.
Does any know for sure?
Drachasor
11-04-06, 11:08 PM 5th lvl Abjurant Champion gets +5 to AC casts Shield +4 total +9 no suprise.
I believe if he casts Protection from X spell he could add 7 points of Deflection to that 2 from the spell and 5 from his abilitys.
Does any know for sure?

His class ability only gives a bonus to Abjuration spells that provide a Shield or Armor bonus.

Some have houseruled this and removed the Abjuration limitation, so any spell that provides a Shield or Armor bonus is affected.

It is probably more sensible to make Mage Armor and other blatant defensive spells Abjuration. Conjuration gets too much as it is.

-Drachasor
unusualsuspect
11-04-06, 11:10 PM Yeah... because Abjurant Champion really needs that sort of boost.

Really.

Honest.

*sigh*
Drachasor
11-05-06, 01:00 AM Yeah... because Abjurant Champion really needs that sort of boost.

Really.

Honest.

*sigh*

Well, I did neglect to mention the entry requirements need to be upped. Spell Focus (Abjuration) would be good, and requiring proficiency in ALL martial weapons is definitely needed too. It might need some more requirements. Right now it is WAY too easy to get into.

After that, it isn't that bad. Afterall, the Abjurant Champion is trading physical armor for armor from spells. You can't enchant armor from spells and you can dispel such armor. Given his AC increasing ability only works on Shield and Armor bonuses to AC, I'd say that could work out pretty well. The mechanics of the class aren't bad; it just doesn't have requirements that demand a gishy build (e.g. sacrificing caster levels or other requirements).

-Drachasor

Edit: Remembered the fact it needed prof in only one martial weapon and how that was awful.
Benedictus
11-05-06, 02:58 AM Regarding the single Martial Weapon Proficiency as a requirement.

Tailor made for the Variant Sorcerer that is also in the book. They like to make things from the same book work together.

I like the Abjurant Champion. The Mage Armor deal is weird.
Is there any other abjuration spell or other spell that provides an Armor bonus?
Fargren
11-05-06, 10:18 AM You can't enchant armor from spells and you can dispel such armor.
But he can use a +1 bracer of armor an enchant them. Granted, the AC bonus won't stack, but he'll still get al those fancy enchantemnts.
Navigator
11-05-06, 05:08 PM (originally a double post, but using it anyway) :)

As far as the requirements go, they did kinda strike me as being very, very low. There should definately be something else (feat, casting requirement, etc), or the hit dice of the class needs to be reduced to d6 at least.
Navigator
11-05-06, 05:09 PM Yeah... because Abjurant Champion really needs that sort of boost.

Abjurant Champion needs that boost in order to be effective. Or would you rather him have a wizard's AC and in full attack range of the Ogre Barbarian?

Having a class ability that effects one measely 1st level spell is just short of pointless, anyway.

Abjurant Armor (Su): Any time you cast an abjuration spell that grants you an armor bonus or shield bonus to AC, you can increase the value of the bonus by your abjurant champion class level. Abjurant champions rely on mage armor, shield, and similar spells instead of actual armor.

And, in the sample, the character definately has a +9 bonus to armor, without any kind of armor in his possession. There is also a note that says mage armor is already cast (and exists in his spell pool), which is a clear indication that the authors intended for mage armor to be effected by the abjurant armor class ability.

Though, the sample character and write-up conflict by RAW.

I really don't see a clean way out of this (the cleanest way is to rule mage armor an abjuration spell), so everyone will have to solve this problem with house rules, unless some errata is released (and I'm sure it will, given that there is at least one mistake in the Abjurant Champion entry).
Benedictus
11-05-06, 05:20 PM Armor of Darkness for the Cleric Darkness Domain is an abjuration that grants an Armor bonus.

Ectoplasmic Armor is another Abjuration that grants an Armor bonus but it is a special armor that only blocks incorporeal attacks.

Now if you allow Mage Armor then you have to allow Greater Mage Armor which means that a third level spell that lets a 5th level Abjurant Champion have +11 Force Armor from the spell.

But I might be wrong.
Navigator
11-06-06, 05:26 AM Well, yeah. You'd have to make greater mage armor an abjuration spell if you made mage armor one.

If you used both, it'd be +11 armor, +9 shield. That's a pretty rockin' AC, until you get hit with dispel magic, anyway.
Benedictus
11-06-06, 07:55 AM Yes. If you're a low level caster those dispel magic spells are going to be painful. Abjurant Champions are geared toward a splash of low level casting in a mostly combat character too. There is a good balance point for the class.
ZinFeir
11-06-06, 10:41 AM Instead of all out making Mage Armor, Mass Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor an Abjur spell, make it a split school Abjur/Conj. That would make good use of anything that Conj has to offer(nothing yet). Also, you could change that line to "Any Abjur spell that add's any kind of AC bonus."

I was attract to this class because at 5th level my caster level is equal to my BAB, and its a full BAB class. ((My character is only one BAB behind full. . .from taking a level in wizard.))
Osedox
11-06-06, 11:12 AM I think the armor is negligable, but rather worrying is the fact that a 5th level AC can toss around quickened Dispel Magics every round as 3rd level slots.
Nessaj
11-06-06, 11:56 AM I think the armor is negligable, but rather worrying is the fact that a 5th level AC can toss around quickened Dispel Magics every round as 3rd level slots.

Except for the fact that unless you're a Battle Sorcerer, you're not getting in any earlier than 8th level. The BAB requirement sees to that. Anything else, and you're losing caster levels to fulfill said requirement. Still...Free Quickens is always nice. Especially on buffs and debuffs.

Instead of Houseruling Mage Armor as an Abjuration...I would simply change the class ability to include any spell that gives relies on force to give an armor, shield, or deflection bonus to AC. That seems to fit the flavor of the class to me. So Mage Armor, Shield, Protection from Evil, Armor of Darkness...All of these spells would gain the bonus.

Hm...A Sorcerer with the Deflect spell would make for an interesting Abjurant Champion. 5 + 1/2 caster levels Deflection bonus as an immediate action, coupled with a +11 Greater Mage Armor and a +9 Repelling Shield Spell would make for an obnoxious melee fighter, Dispel Magic, or not. That's why you're proficient with light armor; its your backup...

Assuming you're level 13, with all 5 levels of the Prestige class...

Thats 10 + dex + 11 armor + 9 shield + 7 def (Pro. from X) or +11 def vs 1 attack...

Base AC of 37 (41) before Dexterity, Size, and Natural armor bonuses. Nice.
Drachasor
11-06-06, 01:05 PM Personally, I think the class IS balanced in and off itself. It just should require more to get into. Otherwise pretty much ALL arcane casters (at the very least all elven ones) should take this at 11th level. Arcane Casters should have to give up a little bit more than that.

If changing one martial weapon to "all martial weapons" messes up a Sorcerer alternate given in the book, then have that alternate grant proficiency with all martial weapons. Afterall, it isn't like you are going to overpower the Sorcerer compared to the wizard doing that.

-Drachasor

PS. Again, Mage Armor should simply be changed to an Abjuration spell. Conjuration does not need awesome defense spells, awesome summoning spells, and awesome direct damage spells. The School has too much as it is.
Navigator
11-06-06, 02:12 PM Personally, I think the class IS balanced in and off itself. It just should require more to get into. Otherwise pretty much ALL arcane casters (at the very least all elven ones) should take this at 11th level. Arcane Casters should have to give up a little bit more than that.
Okay, the class is good, but not that good.

If you're a pure arcane caster, it's really not worth it. You'd have to burn 2 feats for it (Combat Casting and Martial Weapon Proficiency).

The extended abjuration and swift abjuration abilities can replicated with the use of items. Pure arcane casters can put their high-level spells to better use than getting a +X to saves/AC for 1 round (arcane boost). And I don't have to point out that martial arcanist is uselss.

Abjurant armor would be very useful, however. But considering all that, is it really worth 2 feats and 5 levels? For sorceror, maybe. For wizards, I'd need a lot more convincing.
Drachasor
11-06-06, 02:24 PM Abjurant armor would be very useful, however. But considering all that, is it really worth 2 feats and 5 levels? For sorceror, maybe. For wizards, I'd need a lot more convincing.

One feat for Elves and the Alternate option Sorcs. They already have a martial weapom prof. For them it is pretty much a no-brainer to take. I think the class should require proficiency in all martial weapons. If you are taking the class, you should have taken at least 1 level in a pure martial class. There are also a lot of handy low-level abjurations which auto-quickened would be even more useful. Protection from Evil is a poor man's Mind Blank, for instance.

-Drachasor
Barlo
12-03-06, 10:44 PM i wanted to point out that the abjurant armor ability wouldn't work for Protection from Evil or Deflection spell since they both give a deflection bonus. In the description for Abjurant armor, it only works for spells that give an armor or shield bonus.
unusualsuspect
12-04-06, 12:33 AM Okay, the class is good, but not that good.

If you're a pure arcane caster, it's really not worth it. You'd have to burn 2 feats for it (Combat Casting and Martial Weapon Proficiency).

The extended abjuration and swift abjuration abilities can replicated with the use of items. Pure arcane casters can put their high-level spells to better use than getting a +X to saves/AC for 1 round (arcane boost). And I don't have to point out that martial arcanist is uselss.

Abjurant armor would be very useful, however. But considering all that, is it really worth 2 feats and 5 levels? For sorceror, maybe. For wizards, I'd need a lot more convincing.

let's see...

2 feets for +3 bab, d10 hit die instead of d4 hit die, free autoquickened abjurations spells of 2nd level or lower, and the ability to boost your melee capabilities by sacrificing excess spell slots.

3 feats if you're taking this instead of wizard.

1 less feat either way if you get a martial weapon proficiency for free... say, elf?

And, though I'm likely to be flamed (again) for mentioning this, the sactified spells "Luminous Armor" and "Greater Luminous Armor" from BoED are abjuration spells that give an armor bonus, AS WELL AS a penalty to melee attacks against the caster.

Combined with Bracers of Armor with Armor enchantments, and you have a wizard who has the Armor bonus of Full Plate +5, the Shield Bonus of a Tower Shield +5, with -4 penalties to all melee attacks against the caster, and he DIDN'T SPEND ANY MONEY TO GET THESE.

Can they be dispelled? Sure. They can also be quickly replaced.

Of course, for something along the lines of 10k gp, you can have 0% ASF Full Plate anyway. Enchant This, and simply use the Shield spell, and you're not even digging into that horribly evil "good" Book of Exalted Deeds.

My closing statement: Arcane does NOT need a power boost, nor a survivability boost, especially at the relatively higher levels that you'd need to enter this class. Giving a full bab, melee boosting, full caster level PrC that has NO REAL CASTING DRAWBACKS besides a few feats that are arguably useful at lower levels anyway to arcane casters just... I don't know, it's like they didn't want the weakling wizard to miss out on being as better at being a fighter as clerics and druids already are.
Gworraent
05-18-07, 07:12 PM One should dip into Argent Savant from Complete Arcane.

1st
+2 atk with force spells
+1 dmg " " "

2nd
Any spell she casts that provides armor or shield bonus gets a +2 bonus to the provided AC

3rd
Force spells of 3rd level or higher last twice as long and have their DC's increased by 4

4th
Subtract class level from damage dealt by a spell with a force descriptor

5th
Standard action, dispel a single force spell/effect within 60 feet. DC11+opposing CL. Success means the spell is dispelled and all creatures within 10 feet take d6/level of spell or effect dispelled.

Spell Progress 4/5ths (at all but first)

Pre reqs
arbitrary skills that any wizard worth his salt would have

AND

must be able to cast at least 5 spells with the force descriptor, one at least 5th level or higher

A great combo

Abjurer 3/ Master specialist 5/ Argent savant 5/ Abjurant champion 5

Just look at what it can do.

http://www.dmtools.org/details.php?id=822
Cold Napalm
05-18-07, 07:48 PM No really, what kind of DUMB full caster takes AC as the PrC?!? I mean honestly a loremaster offer more to a full caster then the AC does...much less actually good PrC like incantrix.

Once again the AC is NOT A GOOD CHOICE FOR FULL CASTERS!!!!! We have been through this already. It does however make playing gishes a bit easier and more viable in more games.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
05-18-07, 08:02 PM No really, what kind of DUMB full caster takes AC as the PrC?!? I mean honestly a loremaster offer more to a full caster then the AC does...much less actually obscene PrC like incantrix.

Fix'd.
Cold Napalm
05-18-07, 08:10 PM Fix'd.

no that was the 3.0 one...the 3.5 one is just good.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sareld 11-04-06, 07:42 AM	It states in the description of the Abjurant Champion in Complete Mage, that ACs get X shield or armor bonus to AC by any abjuration spells they cast, and they usually rely an Mage Armor and Shield to survive. Now, remember that Mage Armor is a conjuration, and that Shield provides a cover bonus to AC, not a shield bonus. Is this ability just totally worthless?
ZinFeir 11-04-06, 07:55 AM	It doesn't say Mage Armor is Abjuration, it just says they rely on it to keep them alive.
Sareld 11-04-06, 07:58 AM	Yeah, but the thing is that the kind of spells he gets his bonus to hardly exists. There is one abjuration spell in CM that gives +4 shield bunus to AC, thats it. Or am I missing something?
Thiez 11-04-06, 08:17 AM	I believe I've seen a discussion about this before. I think it's save to assume that the people who created the PHB spells roll d% to decide the school of a spell :P Anyway, feel free to houserule Mage Armor into Abjuration. It's hardly going to affect gameplay, except for giving a little bonus to the Abjurant Champion.
Forged_Fury 11-04-06, 08:45 AM	<snip> and that Shield provides a cover bonus to AC, not a shield bonus. What book are you reading? Shield Abjuration [Force] Level: Sor/Wiz 1 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 min./level (D) Shield creates an invisible, tower shield-sized mobile disk of force that hovers in front of you. It negates magic missile attacks directed at you. The disk also provides a +4 shield bonus to AC. This bonus applies against incorporeal touch attacks, since it is a force effect. The shield has no armor check penalty or arcane spell failure chance. Unlike with a normal tower shield, you can’t use the shield spell for cover. Maybe you're thinking of shield of faith which grants a deflection bonus to AC. -FF
Osedox 11-04-06, 12:02 PM	Even stranger still is the fact that the sample character Caspain LaMont has a +9 Armor bonus to AC in his stat block. And worst than that I have seen an official response from WotC claiming that Mage Armor shoulsnt be effected by any of the Abjurant Champions abilities. So they are clearly loco, my best guess is to make Mage Armor Abjuration, and try to forget the whole bother.
Tyler Do'Urden 11-04-06, 12:07 PM	Or just not buy Complete Mage. But yeah, my DM noticed this the day after he got the book. Then again he proofreads for a living.
Iver Gearsham 11-04-06, 09:53 PM	5th lvl Abjurant Champion gets +5 to AC casts Shield +4 total +9 no suprise. I believe if he casts Protection from X spell he could add 7 points of Deflection to that 2 from the spell and 5 from his abilitys. Does any know for sure?
Drachasor 11-04-06, 11:08 PM	5th lvl Abjurant Champion gets +5 to AC casts Shield +4 total +9 no suprise. I believe if he casts Protection from X spell he could add 7 points of Deflection to that 2 from the spell and 5 from his abilitys. Does any know for sure? His class ability only gives a bonus to Abjuration spells that provide a Shield or Armor bonus. Some have houseruled this and removed the Abjuration limitation, so any spell that provides a Shield or Armor bonus is affected. It is probably more sensible to make Mage Armor and other blatant defensive spells Abjuration. Conjuration gets too much as it is. -Drachasor
unusualsuspect 11-04-06, 11:10 PM	Yeah... because Abjurant Champion really needs that sort of boost. Really. Honest. sigh
Drachasor 11-05-06, 01:00 AM	Yeah... because Abjurant Champion really needs that sort of boost. Really. Honest. sigh Well, I did neglect to mention the entry requirements need to be upped. Spell Focus (Abjuration) would be good, and requiring proficiency in ALL martial weapons is definitely needed too. It might need some more requirements. Right now it is WAY too easy to get into. After that, it isn't that bad. Afterall, the Abjurant Champion is trading physical armor for armor from spells. You can't enchant armor from spells and you can dispel such armor. Given his AC increasing ability only works on Shield and Armor bonuses to AC, I'd say that could work out pretty well. The mechanics of the class aren't bad; it just doesn't have requirements that demand a gishy build (e.g. sacrificing caster levels or other requirements). -Drachasor Edit: Remembered the fact it needed prof in only one martial weapon and how that was awful.
Benedictus 11-05-06, 02:58 AM	Regarding the single Martial Weapon Proficiency as a requirement. Tailor made for the Variant Sorcerer that is also in the book. They like to make things from the same book work together. I like the Abjurant Champion. The Mage Armor deal is weird. Is there any other abjuration spell or other spell that provides an Armor bonus?
Fargren 11-05-06, 10:18 AM	You can't enchant armor from spells and you can dispel such armor. But he can use a +1 bracer of armor an enchant them. Granted, the AC bonus won't stack, but he'll still get al those fancy enchantemnts.
Navigator 11-05-06, 05:08 PM	(originally a double post, but using it anyway) :) As far as the requirements go, they did kinda strike me as being very, very low. There should definately be something else (feat, casting requirement, etc), or the hit dice of the class needs to be reduced to d6 at least.
Navigator 11-05-06, 05:09 PM	Yeah... because Abjurant Champion really needs that sort of boost. Abjurant Champion needs that boost in order to be effective. Or would you rather him have a wizard's AC and in full attack range of the Ogre Barbarian? Having a class ability that effects one measely 1st level spell is just short of pointless, anyway. Abjurant Armor (Su): Any time you cast an abjuration spell that grants you an armor bonus or shield bonus to AC, you can increase the value of the bonus by your abjurant champion class level. Abjurant champions rely on mage armor, shield, and similar spells instead of actual armor. And, in the sample, the character definately has a +9 bonus to armor, without any kind of armor in his possession. There is also a note that says mage armor is already cast (and exists in his spell pool), which is a clear indication that the authors intended for mage armor to be effected by the abjurant armor class ability. Though, the sample character and write-up conflict by RAW. I really don't see a clean way out of this (the cleanest way is to rule mage armor an abjuration spell), so everyone will have to solve this problem with house rules, unless some errata is released (and I'm sure it will, given that there is at least one mistake in the Abjurant Champion entry).
Benedictus 11-05-06, 05:20 PM	Armor of Darkness for the Cleric Darkness Domain is an abjuration that grants an Armor bonus. Ectoplasmic Armor is another Abjuration that grants an Armor bonus but it is a special armor that only blocks incorporeal attacks. Now if you allow Mage Armor then you have to allow Greater Mage Armor which means that a third level spell that lets a 5th level Abjurant Champion have +11 Force Armor from the spell. But I might be wrong.
Navigator 11-06-06, 05:26 AM	Well, yeah. You'd have to make greater mage armor an abjuration spell if you made mage armor one. If you used both, it'd be +11 armor, +9 shield. That's a pretty rockin' AC, until you get hit with dispel magic, anyway.
Benedictus 11-06-06, 07:55 AM	Yes. If you're a low level caster those dispel magic spells are going to be painful. Abjurant Champions are geared toward a splash of low level casting in a mostly combat character too. There is a good balance point for the class.
ZinFeir 11-06-06, 10:41 AM	Instead of all out making Mage Armor, Mass Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor an Abjur spell, make it a split school Abjur/Conj. That would make good use of anything that Conj has to offer(nothing yet). Also, you could change that line to "Any Abjur spell that add's any kind of AC bonus." I was attract to this class because at 5th level my caster level is equal to my BAB, and its a full BAB class. ((My character is only one BAB behind full. . .from taking a level in wizard.))
Osedox 11-06-06, 11:12 AM	I think the armor is negligable, but rather worrying is the fact that a 5th level AC can toss around quickened Dispel Magics every round as 3rd level slots.
Nessaj 11-06-06, 11:56 AM	I think the armor is negligable, but rather worrying is the fact that a 5th level AC can toss around quickened Dispel Magics every round as 3rd level slots. Except for the fact that unless you're a Battle Sorcerer, you're not getting in any earlier than 8th level. The BAB requirement sees to that. Anything else, and you're losing caster levels to fulfill said requirement. Still...Free Quickens is always nice. Especially on buffs and debuffs. Instead of Houseruling Mage Armor as an Abjuration...I would simply change the class ability to include any spell that gives relies on force to give an armor, shield, or deflection bonus to AC. That seems to fit the flavor of the class to me. So Mage Armor, Shield, Protection from Evil, Armor of Darkness...All of these spells would gain the bonus. Hm...A Sorcerer with the Deflect spell would make for an interesting Abjurant Champion. 5 + 1/2 caster levels Deflection bonus as an immediate action, coupled with a +11 Greater Mage Armor and a +9 Repelling Shield Spell would make for an obnoxious melee fighter, Dispel Magic, or not. That's why you're proficient with light armor; its your backup... Assuming you're level 13, with all 5 levels of the Prestige class... Thats 10 + dex + 11 armor + 9 shield + 7 def (Pro. from X) or +11 def vs 1 attack... Base AC of 37 (41) before Dexterity, Size, and Natural armor bonuses. Nice.
Drachasor 11-06-06, 01:05 PM	Personally, I think the class IS balanced in and off itself. It just should require more to get into. Otherwise pretty much ALL arcane casters (at the very least all elven ones) should take this at 11th level. Arcane Casters should have to give up a little bit more than that. If changing one martial weapon to "all martial weapons" messes up a Sorcerer alternate given in the book, then have that alternate grant proficiency with all martial weapons. Afterall, it isn't like you are going to overpower the Sorcerer compared to the wizard doing that. -Drachasor PS. Again, Mage Armor should simply be changed to an Abjuration spell. Conjuration does not need awesome defense spells, awesome summoning spells, and awesome direct damage spells. The School has too much as it is.
Navigator 11-06-06, 02:12 PM	Personally, I think the class IS balanced in and off itself. It just should require more to get into. Otherwise pretty much ALL arcane casters (at the very least all elven ones) should take this at 11th level. Arcane Casters should have to give up a little bit more than that. Okay, the class is good, but not that good. If you're a pure arcane caster, it's really not worth it. You'd have to burn 2 feats for it (Combat Casting and Martial Weapon Proficiency). The extended abjuration and swift abjuration abilities can replicated with the use of items. Pure arcane casters can put their high-level spells to better use than getting a +X to saves/AC for 1 round (arcane boost). And I don't have to point out that martial arcanist is uselss. Abjurant armor would be very useful, however. But considering all that, is it really worth 2 feats and 5 levels? For sorceror, maybe. For wizards, I'd need a lot more convincing.
Drachasor 11-06-06, 02:24 PM	Abjurant armor would be very useful, however. But considering all that, is it really worth 2 feats and 5 levels? For sorceror, maybe. For wizards, I'd need a lot more convincing. One feat for Elves and the Alternate option Sorcs. They already have a martial weapom prof. For them it is pretty much a no-brainer to take. I think the class should require proficiency in all martial weapons. If you are taking the class, you should have taken at least 1 level in a pure martial class. There are also a lot of handy low-level abjurations which auto-quickened would be even more useful. Protection from Evil is a poor man's Mind Blank, for instance. -Drachasor
Barlo 12-03-06, 10:44 PM	i wanted to point out that the abjurant armor ability wouldn't work for Protection from Evil or Deflection spell since they both give a deflection bonus. In the description for Abjurant armor, it only works for spells that give an armor or shield bonus.
unusualsuspect 12-04-06, 12:33 AM	Okay, the class is good, but not that good. If you're a pure arcane caster, it's really not worth it. You'd have to burn 2 feats for it (Combat Casting and Martial Weapon Proficiency). The extended abjuration and swift abjuration abilities can replicated with the use of items. Pure arcane casters can put their high-level spells to better use than getting a +X to saves/AC for 1 round (arcane boost). And I don't have to point out that martial arcanist is uselss. Abjurant armor would be very useful, however. But considering all that, is it really worth 2 feats and 5 levels? For sorceror, maybe. For wizards, I'd need a lot more convincing. let's see... 2 feets for +3 bab, d10 hit die instead of d4 hit die, free autoquickened abjurations spells of 2nd level or lower, and the ability to boost your melee capabilities by sacrificing excess spell slots. 3 feats if you're taking this instead of wizard. 1 less feat either way if you get a martial weapon proficiency for free... say, elf? And, though I'm likely to be flamed (again) for mentioning this, the sactified spells "Luminous Armor" and "Greater Luminous Armor" from BoED are abjuration spells that give an armor bonus, AS WELL AS a penalty to melee attacks against the caster. Combined with Bracers of Armor with Armor enchantments, and you have a wizard who has the Armor bonus of Full Plate +5, the Shield Bonus of a Tower Shield +5, with -4 penalties to all melee attacks against the caster, and he DIDN'T SPEND ANY MONEY TO GET THESE. Can they be dispelled? Sure. They can also be quickly replaced. Of course, for something along the lines of 10k gp, you can have 0% ASF Full Plate anyway. Enchant This, and simply use the Shield spell, and you're not even digging into that horribly evil "good" Book of Exalted Deeds. My closing statement: Arcane does NOT need a power boost, nor a survivability boost, especially at the relatively higher levels that you'd need to enter this class. Giving a full bab, melee boosting, full caster level PrC that has NO REAL CASTING DRAWBACKS besides a few feats that are arguably useful at lower levels anyway to arcane casters just... I don't know, it's like they didn't want the weakling wizard to miss out on being as better at being a fighter as clerics and druids already are.
Gworraent 05-18-07, 07:12 PM	One should dip into Argent Savant from Complete Arcane. 1st +2 atk with force spells +1 dmg " " " 2nd Any spell she casts that provides armor or shield bonus gets a +2 bonus to the provided AC 3rd Force spells of 3rd level or higher last twice as long and have their DC's increased by 4 4th Subtract class level from damage dealt by a spell with a force descriptor 5th Standard action, dispel a single force spell/effect within 60 feet. DC11+opposing CL. Success means the spell is dispelled and all creatures within 10 feet take d6/level of spell or effect dispelled. Spell Progress 4/5ths (at all but first) Pre reqs arbitrary skills that any wizard worth his salt would have AND must be able to cast at least 5 spells with the force descriptor, one at least 5th level or higher A great combo Abjurer 3/ Master specialist 5/ Argent savant 5/ Abjurant champion 5 Just look at what it can do. http://www.dmtools.org/details.php?id=822
Cold Napalm 05-18-07, 07:48 PM	No really, what kind of DUMB full caster takes AC as the PrC?!? I mean honestly a loremaster offer more to a full caster then the AC does...much less actually good PrC like incantrix. Once again the AC is NOT A GOOD CHOICE FOR FULL CASTERS!!!!! We have been through this already. It does however make playing gishes a bit easier and more viable in more games.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 05-18-07, 08:02 PM	No really, what kind of DUMB full caster takes AC as the PrC?!? I mean honestly a loremaster offer more to a full caster then the AC does...much less actually obscene PrC like incantrix. Fix'd.
Cold Napalm 05-18-07, 08:10 PM	Fix'd. no that was the 3.0 one...the 3.5 one is just good.