Post/Author/DateTime	Post
robinscw 03-30-05, 11:53 PM	OK, so a friend of mine laughed the other day at my decision to make an abjurer for a campaign we're playing. Any suggestions on an optimized abjurer? Or is this really just a worthless field for specialization? Why is it that Wall spells are rarely abjuration, when it's supposed to be the defensive school. That's really about it, any help would be greatly appreciated.
green_yawgmoth 03-31-05, 12:37 AM	What you need is Complete Arcane. There's a lot of great things in there for an abjurer. Become an initiate of the sevenfold veil and wreak havoc on your opponents! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Draco Obscura 03-31-05, 12:47 AM	Walls aren't Abjuration because they either manipulate energy, or are conjured from thin air. And an Abjurer can do lots of fun things, like Dispel or counterspell more times per day. That sort of thing. Just because something isn't combat-oriented doesn't mean it sucks.
Salla 03-31-05, 01:15 AM	Just remember; by declaring yourself an abjurer, you're pretty much saying 'defense is my thing'. That said, don't cut yourself off completely from offensive spells; keep at least one of conjuration, evocation, or transmutation when you choose your banned schools, so you still have a little 'oomph' when you need it. (It bears noting that, really, specializing probably isn't worth it; you're probably better off going with a generalist and just choosing to focus on aburations. Losing those two spell schools hurts. A lot.)
smrtgmp 03-31-05, 01:28 AM	Prismatic Wall, the best wall in the game, IMO, is abjuration. So is prismatic sphere. There are some great abjuration spells out there, especially if you have access to the Complete Arcane. If you do, I would recomend an abjurer 5/mindbender 1/ geometer 3/initiate of the sevenfold veil7/ X 4, where X is any full casting class you want. This assumes you dont give up enchantment. 1 level of mindbender is awesome. You get a caster level, +2 to fort and will saves, and telepathy out to 100'. Geometer and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil were both made for abjurers, and both are outstanding (especially the latter). If you dont mind giving up the CL, taking 3 levels of Human Paragon or Elf Paragon could work really well. That would give you more HP, a broader skill selection, and an extra +2 to your int. If you do go with that option, then you should pick up the practiced spellcaster feat somewhere along the way. I recently played an "abjurer" in a one-shot 20th level game. The build I went with was human paragon1/abjurer2/human paragon2/mindbender1/geometer 3/initiate of the sevenfold veil 7/geometer 1/archmage 2* He was a major factor in the group, aguably one of the most powerful, if for no other reason than he was nearly impossible to hurt. *I was 19th level because I made most of my gear via item creation feats.
Pennarin 03-31-05, 01:53 AM	counterspell more times per day How?
rbingham2000 03-31-05, 02:36 AM	If you're doing a warrior-oriented campaign and you don't want your wizard or sorcerer to overshadow the warriors in your group, it can be useful to focus on keeping your compatriots alive using abjuration magic. In addition to the many protective spells, the Abjuration school also includes the Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic spells, which allow you to counter the spells of enemy spellcasters and keep them from messing up you and your allies; the Remove Curse and Break Enchantment spells, which gets rid of most curses and other nasty effects bestowed by items or evil spellcasters; the Dismissal and Banishment spells, which send enemy outsiders back where they came from; Dimensional Anchor and Dimensional Lock, which keep enemy spellcasters from using planar travel spells or teleportation in order to escape a battle; and the ever popular Spell Turning, which sends a spell that an enemy caster sent your way right back into his face. As you can see, quite the useful school.
BW0222 03-31-05, 03:51 AM	Nothing wrong with an abjurer. Only one spell per level in your bonus slot needs to be an abjuration spell and most folks take at least one defensive spell, and typically more as the gain higher-level spells. 0-level: resistance 1st-level: protection from good/evil, or shield. 2nd-level: protection from arrows or resist energy. 3rd-level: dispell magic or magic circle against good/evil. 4th-level: globe of invulnerablity, lesser or stoneskin. It's hard to think that walking around with your bonus slot taking up one of these would be that hard to live with. You can come up with good spell combos, such as having resist energy up on your front-line fighter and fireballing him as folks engage, or using levitate with protection from arrows. Also works well with many potions and/or other item creation feats. Potions of resist energy, or wands of protection from evil. Makes summoned creatures easy to deal with.
Bopple 03-31-05, 04:07 AM	Yeah, there is, at least one spell at each level, you must have. Nothing is wrong with an abjurer.
Santrilla 03-31-05, 04:13 AM	As has been said, if you're taking abjurer as your specialisation, it's vital that you think carefully about which schools you get rid of. With your focus on defense, you'll NEED some attack spells too- so don't lose both evocation and conjuration. EDIT: And IMHO, specialisation is more for flavor than anything else. If mechanically you want to focus on evocations, you could just only pick evocation spells. But if you say "I'm an Evoker", it sounds cooler and it shows the world where your loyalties lie in the schools of magic. "Illusionist" sounds so much better than "wizard who concentrates on illusion spells". :P
MrMagoo 03-31-05, 10:22 AM	How? There's a variant abjurer in UA that allows for spells to be spontaniously converted into dispels.
Helmed Horror 03-31-05, 10:31 AM	The trick if you are allowed to is one if not the best PrC for a wizard, Incanatrix in PGtF. The incanatrix requires you at first level to become an abjurer (you must give up 1 school). It requires Iron will to get in, a wasted feat, but is easily compensated with I believe 4 bonus metamagic feats not to mention many other metamagic goodies. (cooperative metamagic is always fun.) Perhaps Wizard 5/Incanatrix 4/IotSV 7/Archmage 4 this can easily be arranged to include either divine oracle loremaster or geometer depeneding on your background. incanatrix/IotSV is IMHO the best abjurer character in the game.
tarkin 03-31-05, 10:43 AM	incantratrix is cool, but abjurers are fine without it. Here are the spells I would use on my slot as an abjurer: 1: Shield 2: Protection From arrows (outside), Resist Energy (dungeon) 3: Dispell Magic at low levels, Non detection at high levels 4: StoneSkin 5: Break Enchantment 6: Either a Repeat Spell Dispell Magic or a Repulsion. 7: Banishment 8: Prismatic Wall 9: Prismatic Sphere (NOT disjunction, I like having the ability to cast spells, thank you very much.) As you can see, there are LOTS of good abjuration spells. I would not get rid of both Evocation and Conjuration.
green_yawgmoth 03-31-05, 11:16 AM	9: Prismatic Sphere (NOT disjunction, I like having the ability to cast spells, thank you very much.) Why wouldn't you be able to cast spells after an MDJ? It doesn't affect the caster, you know. :confused: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
calypso 03-31-05, 11:18 AM	Why wouldn't you be able to cast spells after an MDJ? It doesn't affect the caster, you know. :confused: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif Well... if you disjoin an artifact, you have to make a DC 25 Will save or lose spellcasting ability. However... A) What are the chances you'll disjoin an artifact? I mean, I'm not saying it can't happen, but it's not gonna happen most of the time. and B) What 17+ level wizard is going to fail a DC 25 Will save? Again, yes, it can happen if you roll a 1, but see point A. Calypso
tarkin 03-31-05, 11:56 AM	The problem is not the low chance of the bad thing happening. Instead it is the incredible problem of it happening. Note, not even a Wish or Miracle can fix you. You are stuck like that until a GOD says otherwise. At least if you die, someone can raise you from the dead, maybe lose a level at most. For a spell caster, losing the ability to cast spells is worse than death. The only punishment I can think of being worse than it, is being kicked out of the DM's game. On top of that, it destroys your treasure, and can get a God angry at you. As such, the risk of casting Disjunction is simply NOT worth the value of casting the spell. Think about it in real life. Lets say there were two cars, both cost $90,000, both had been out for 2 years. One of them went 180 mph top speed, 0-60 in 5 secs, but 1 in a thousand of the cars had catastrophic brake failure at speeds over 90mph. The other went at 175 mph, 0-60 in 5.2 secs, but had no known safety issues. Which car would you buy? Disjunction just is not worth it.
Planar Wanderer 03-31-05, 11:57 AM	Well... if you disjoin an artifact, you have to make a DC 25 Will save or lose spellcasting ability. However... A) What are the chances you'll disjoin an artifact? I mean, I'm not saying it can't happen, but it's not gonna happen most of the time. and B) What 17+ level wizard is going to fail a DC 25 Will save? Again, yes, it can happen if you roll a 1, but see point A. Calypso Never run into Murphy's law calypso? :D Actually I agree with you, I can't see Mord's Disjunction causing major problems, unless you are really really unlucky (or your DM throws large numbers of artifacts at you)
tarkin 03-31-05, 12:03 PM	At the levels that Disjunction comes into play, 1 otu of 2 major bad guys should have at least a minor artifact. Remember, a Deck of Many things counts as a minor artifact, as does a Sphere of Annihilation.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-31-05, 12:07 PM	I don't hand out minor artifacts to my bad guys very often (When I do, it's literally an earth-shaking event), but I see your point, gaining EXP but not treasure in 3E is a real kick to the jimmy. And MDJ does so whether the DM casts it, or the players cast it.
Krelios 03-31-05, 12:13 PM	Think about it in real life. Lets say there were two cars, both cost $90,000, both had been out for 2 years. One of them went 180 mph top speed, 0-60 in 5 secs, but 1 in a thousand of the cars had catastrophic brake failure at speeds over 90mph. The other went at 175 mph, 0-60 in 5.2 secs, but had no known safety issues. Which car would you buy? Disjunction just is not worth it. Since these are adventurers and not normal folk, lets say that for your analogy I'm a race car driver--I'll take the one that's twice as fast and count on beating the odds, that's what adventurers do every time they enter combat anyway. MDJ is just fine and a viable tactic against a heavily spelled opponent.
Krelios 03-31-05, 12:17 PM	I don't hand out minor artifacts to my bad guys very often (When I do, it's literally an earth-shaking event), but I see your point, gaining EXP but not treasure in 3E is a real kick to the jimmy. And MDJ does so whether the DM casts it, or the players cast it. If you die, you get no treasure anyway. Most often MDJ would be best used against creatures that are natual spellcasters and horde their treasure away from combat *cough*dragons*cough*. However, if my choice is between dying and surviving with no treasure for that encounter, I'll take survival anyday. I'd cast MDJ on someone that I knew had an artifact if it would save the party--even it means (possibly) losing my spellcasting, since any DM that would bother to put an artifact on an NPC to cause me to potentially lose my casting should darn well have a plan for a side quest for me to get my spellcasting back. It could actually be a fun story point.
Beamup 03-31-05, 12:28 PM	MDJ can be useful sometimes, sure. But Tarkin's point stands - in general you won't want to bother preparing it because usually it's not worth the risk. In special situations, you'll want to prepare it. But for a general-use level 9 abjuration spell, it's not the best choice.
Bane 03-31-05, 12:52 PM	Lets crunch some numbers. Level 20 wizard, 10 wisdom. He casts MDJ on an artifact. 20% chance that he disjoins it. With a Will save of +12, he has to roll a 13 or better to keep his spells. Just casting MDJ once on the BBEG gives a 12% chance to lose all spellcasting, not to mention a 19% chance that you draw the attention of a powerful outsider, and an 11.4% chance of both losing your spellcasting and attracting the attention of a powerful outsider. If the BBEG has an artifact, that is. Are you so secure in your power that you would risk an 11.4% chance that you're going to have to fight a balor without spells?
The_Ditto 03-31-05, 12:54 PM	MDJ can be useful sometimes, sure. But Tarkin's point stands - in general you won't want to bother preparing it because usually it's not worth the risk. In special situations, you'll want to prepare it. But for a general-use level 9 abjuration spell, it's not the best choice. Agreed .. and since wizard's can't (normally) swap out spells ... having a scroll of MDJ on hand might be in order .. but again .. not something you want to tossing casually around .. :gah:
tarkin 03-31-05, 12:58 PM	I am not saying the spell is worthless. It is a good spell. And yes, adventurers ARE willing to risk death. But losing all spellcasting is worth than death. I agree that this spell is a powerfull one, but the risks make it more like Wish. It should not be an "always" memorized spell, but instead one you memorize for special circumstances.
Beamup 03-31-05, 01:04 PM	Lets crunch some numbers. Level 20 wizard, 10 wisdom. He casts MDJ on an artifact. 20% chance that he disjoins it. With a Will save of +12, he has to roll a 13 or better to keep his spells. Just casting MDJ once on the BBEG gives a 12% chance to lose all spellcasting Well, let's be realistic here. No level 20 character will be without a Cloak of Resistance +5 (or equivalent). Almost all will probably also have a Luckstone and a Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone. So said wizard's Will save is actually at least +19 and he only needs a 6. So, the probability of losing his spellcasting is no greater than 5%. If he took a PrC (even just one), it's at least +21 (assuming he took a logical PrC) and he needs a 4. Probability is now 3%. However, a 3% risk of becoming a level 20 commoner is still unjustifiable. Almost no conceivable consequence (including a TPK) comes anywhere near that severity. After all, let's be honest here. A Wizard capable of casting MDJ is an utter idiot if he hasn't made preparations (*cough*contingency*cough*) that will make even a TPK only an inconvenience, followed shortly thereafter by a dramatic reappearance. Now, if such preparations get countered by a clever enemy, THEN'S the time the risk starts looking worthwhile.
Thelon Fairblade 03-31-05, 01:17 PM	So *anyway*, picking your spells as an abjurer is not a hardship (as has been exampled already). Picking your opposition schools should be a role-playing opportunity, too. Maybe you drop Enchantment because *that's* why you're an abjurer (and Protect/Evil is your 1st level slot, for the mind-control protection). Or maybe Necromancy because save-or-die is anathema to your philosophy. Maybe Evocation, as a statement of Law (defense) over Chaos (collateral damage of most Evication blaster spells). And so on. Adding my "short" 2 coppers: Nothing wrong with abjurer!
green_yawgmoth 03-31-05, 02:47 PM	Well, let's be realistic here. No level 20 character will be without a Cloak of Resistance +5 (or equivalent). Almost all will probably also have a Luckstone and a Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone. So said wizard's Will save is actually at least +19 and he only needs a 6. So, the probability of losing his spellcasting is no greater than 5%. If he took a PrC (even just one), it's at least +21 (assuming he took a logical PrC) and he needs a 4. Probability is now 3%. However, a 3% risk of becoming a level 20 commoner is still unjustifiable. Almost no conceivable consequence (including a TPK) comes anywhere near that severity. After all, let's be honest here. A Wizard capable of casting MDJ is an utter idiot if he hasn't made preparations (*cough*contingency*cough*) that will make even a TPK only an inconvenience, followed shortly thereafter by a dramatic reappearance. Now, if such preparations get countered by a clever enemy, THEN'S the time the risk starts looking worthwhile. Of course, don't forget his periapt (or something) of wis +6, dragging his will save to +24, and thus a nat 1 is the only way he's losing his spellcasting. Still, not a chance you want to take unless you need to. I agree that it's not a spell you'd normally keep prepared, though. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Heron_Marked_Blade 03-31-05, 02:49 PM	I've been playing an Abjurer for the past year or so, and I'm having no trouble keeping up with the pace of the game. If anything, I'm still overshadowing the group even with three prohibited schools (Necromancy, Enchantment, Illusion). The build right now is Abjurer 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 2/Loremaster 2. I have Mastery of Shaping and Elements from the Archmage levels, and I really couldn't be doing any more damage during combat if I were an Evoker or Generalist. Honestly. Improved Metamagic is a wonderful thing. I'm really not that min/maxed, either. My feat selection: Spell Focus (Evocation, Abjuration), Iron Will, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Maximize Spell, Empower Spell, Craft Wondrous Item, Quicken Spell, Craft Staff, Forge Ring, Silent Spell, Skill Focus (Knowledge: Arcana), Leadership (Applicable Knowledge - Loremaster). For those who say Abjuration is a worthless school in which to specialize, I say "Specializing in general is worthless." For those who are determined to specialize, however, I suggest they try a specialized Abjurer. It's a worthwhile school of magic. Maybe you drop Enchantment because *that's* why you're an abjurer (and Protect/Evil is your 1st level slot, for the mind-control protection). Or maybe Necromancy because save-or-die is anathema to your philosophy.Have you been observing my campaign in secret? Those are the exact reasons I dropped Enchantment and Necromancy: filthy mind-controllers and dirty bone-snatchers. Most enchanters and necromancers are unprincipled deviants, you see, always mucking around with other people's Free Will and not respecting the sanctity of Death. :rant: :nonono:
smrtgmp 03-31-05, 02:57 PM	Those are the exact reasons I dropped Enchantment and Necromancy: filthy mind-controllers and dirty bone-snatchers. Most enchanters and necromancers are unprincipled deviants, you see, always mucking around with other people's Free Will and not respecting the sanctity of Death. :rant: :nonono::evillaugh Thats exaclty why I like enchantment and necromancy.
Beamup 03-31-05, 02:58 PM	Of course, don't forget his periapt (or something) of wis +6, dragging his will save to +24, and thus a nat 1 is the only way he's losing his spellcasting. I don't agree that you can necessarily assume that. Even at level 20, that's still about 5% of the character's total wealth - not negligible. Boosting your best save, and one where the vast majority of the times you'd need to make it can be avoided with a single defensive spell per day (mind blank), is not worth that much. Especially considering that a +3 sacred (for example) bonus to all saves costs only half as much, so it's a VERY bad option if custom items are allowed.
green_yawgmoth 03-31-05, 03:39 PM	I don't agree that you can necessarily assume that. Even at level 20, that's still about 5% of the character's total wealth - not negligible. Boosting your best save, and one where the vast majority of the times you'd need to make it can be avoided with a single defensive spell per day (mind blank), is not worth that much. Especially considering that a +3 sacred (for example) bonus to all saves costs only half as much, so it's a VERY bad option if custom items are allowed. Okay, then assume a +3 periapt of sacred bonus to saves, it gives the same damn thing an he'd be a damn fool to not try his best to get a +24 will save if he's going to be MDJing all willy-nilly. :P http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
was_fired 03-31-05, 04:13 PM	Using the core, what wizard packs a periapt of wisdom +6? That slot competes with your con booster (amulet of health) and natural armor boost (amulet of natural armor). So lets see which does Mr. Almost Every Wizard perfer an extra 60hp and +3 to Fort saves at level 20 thanks to his +6 Con Item or an extra +3 to will saves. Item slots matter and most wizards I have seen would perfer not to spend 48,000gp for an improperly slotted wis booster and instead use it to half purchase a Robe of the Archmagi (the cost minus this and the cloak of resistance comes to 2,000gp). So lets look at Mr. 20th level wizard again after his +6 Int Booster, +6 Dex Booster, +6 Con Booster, +8 Bracers of Armor, +5 Ring of Deflection, Robe of the Arch Magi, and +5 Inherent bonus to Int and Con... why he only has 288,000gp left and we still don't have any staves, scrolls, and wands. Not to mention his host of other vulnerabilities.
Draco Obscura 03-31-05, 04:54 PM	:evillaugh Thats exaclty why I like enchantment and necromancy. Ditto. :evillaugh :mage: Also, I know it's way back there, but your counterspelling increases, because you have a bonus Dispel and Greater Dispel per day. Not much, but what Abjurer worth his salt isn't packing scrolls of Dispel/Grt.Dispel and about 9 memorized Dipel/Grt.Dispel? And yes, specialization is probably 85% flavor. But since I role-play more than I roll-play, I don't care. I create a backstory for a char even when it's just a dungeon crawl.
Ryoohki 03-31-05, 06:27 PM	I'd say the reason I'd personally want to avoid using MDJ in any campaign I'm playing in is that if I start using it, then the DM may feel he needs to have enemies start using it, too. I'd rather everyone just not use it at all. Nothing would suck more than for some 20th level wizards to show up and to MDJ the entire party and destroy all of our magic items. I feel it's more of like a cold war situation. The threat of using it keeps everyone in check. Kyle
Heron_Marked_Blade 03-31-05, 08:57 PM	Nothing would suck more than for some 20th level wizards to show up and to MDJ the entire party and destroy all of our magic items.Heck, it's not the NPC Wizards who're going to be throwing MDJ around, it's any NPC Rogue with a high enough UMD skill. He has no spellcasting ability to lose, so there's that limiting factor gone. And he has just as much reason to want the PCs' buffs/magic items banished as an NPC spellcaster does. I feel it's more of like a cold war situation. The threat of using it keeps everyone in check. That's the way I consider it to be. In fact, I've come up with a "Magic Police" NPC organization that rigorously proscribes the use of dangerous magic; MDJ is near the top of their list of banned spells. The instantaneous destruction of X00,000gp-worth of magic items does not go unnoticed. It sends ripples through the Weave/the Earth cries out as Her essence is unmade/etc. But that's my campaign. YMMV.