About healing spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

About healing spells [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Yunkel
05-07-05, 12:13 PM I dont know if this has been discussed before but here we go.
this is what it is now:
a lvl 15 cleric.
cure light wounds - cures 1d8 (4) + 5 = 11 hp
cure moderate wounds - cures 2d8 (8) + 10 = 18 hp
cure serious wounds - cures 3d8 (12) + 15 = 27 hp
cure critical wounds - cures 4d8 (16) + 15 (lv 15) = 31 hp
heal - cures 150 hp!!!!!

whats this!!! see the big difference 31 to 150!! healing 31 hp to a fighter of that level is nothing! almost every enemy (CR 15) deals 31 points of dmg with each hit. Its a fourth level spell, it should cure more.

this is how it should be:

cure light wounds - cures 1d8 (4) + 5 = 11 hp
cure moderate wounds - cures 2d8 (8) + 10 = 18 hp
cure serious wounds - cures 4d8 (16) + 15 = 31 hp
cure critical wounds - cures 6d8 + 2/level (24) + 30 (lv 15) = 54 hp

hope 3.6 fixs it.
Santrilla
05-07-05, 12:30 PM Well, you're ignoring the Mass versions of those spells, which come in at intervals. Those basically share out a larger amount of healing between multiple targets.

So, assuming maximum targets affected per level, and minimum caster level per spell, the amount of total hitpoints healed is:

CLW Mass = 1d8 + 9 x 9 = 117
CMW Mass = 2d8 + 11 x 11 = 209
CSW = 3d8 + 13 x 13 = 325
CCW = 4d8 + 15 x 15 = 465

Which is actually significantly higher than Heal.

Of course, Healing Circle is a totally different kettle of fish...
Someone
05-07-05, 12:35 PM Well, another 6th level spell, mass cure moderate wounds would heal:
2d8 (9) + 15 (lvl 15) = 24 x up to 15 = up to 360 hp total. So the heal spell is simply taking all of that potential and focusing it on just one subject.

Yes, its a huge jump between 4th and 6th level spells. What I think is more needed is a 5th level spell "lesser heal" to bridge the gap between cure critical and heal. Maybe 5 hp/ caster level and not as much status effect healing.

p.s.: I need to write replys faster....
DeadEye19
05-07-05, 12:47 PM The mass versions' maximum "+1 per caster level" is also higher, +25,+30,+35,+40.
This spells are also usefull for potions, or in a spell storing item when used against undead... Altough this is not relevent to the issue you brought up.
lint trap
05-07-05, 01:17 PM The Vigor spells from Complete Divine don't get much attention.

Lesser Vigor cast by a 15th level cleric heals 15 hp, and Vigor heals 50 hp. Granted, they aren't spontaneous, but a wand of Lesser Vigor easily outperforms a wand of CLW.

A bit off topic, but the use of these spells might help fill out the healing gap.
Shaudes29
05-07-05, 05:54 PM dont forget radient servent of palor w/ augmnet healing and maximized, empowed healing
Shatteredtower
05-08-05, 12:20 AM I dont know if this has been discussed before but here we go.
this is what it is now:
a lvl 15 cleric.
cure light wounds - cures 1d8 (4) + 5 = 11 hp
cure moderate wounds - cures 2d8 (8) + 10 = 18 hp
cure serious wounds - cures 3d8 (12) + 15 = 27 hp
cure critical wounds - cures 4d8 (16) + 15 (lv 15) = 31 hp
heal - cures 150 hp!!!!!

The math is off. It should average 11, 19, 28, and 33 hp. Remember, the average of 2d8 is 9, not 8.

whats this!!!

The excessive use of exclamation points? Yeah, I see it. :P

see the big difference 31 to 150!!

Yes, much like I see the big difference between a 4th and 6th level spell. So?

healing 31 hp to a fighter of that level is nothing!

In much the same way that most offensive 4th level spells aren't that impressive once you've got 6th level options? No, make that 8th level spell options, since your comparison is based on 15th level casting. Should we be impressed by the 4th level spell at that stage?

Now if you'd compared this at 11th level, the difference is 4d8+11 (29 hp) vs. 110 hp. That 4th level spell might not do much for your 11th level fighter, but it's not a bad chunk of change for the 11th level wizard.

Here's the thing you've forgotten, though: my cleric has to prepare heal. Once the battle is done, I can burn any spell slot of 4th or higher level on cure critical wounds. By the time I can prepare heal once or twice, I can cast cure critical wounds no less than five times (assuming that no other 4th or 5th level spell slots were used), with seven uses a reasonable possibility with the modified Wisdom score my character would likely possess at that level. Even if only the 4th level slots are used (and the 5th level slots saved for other spells to support the team or crush the enemy), that's 16d8+66 hp at 11th level, or 158 hp of healing on average. Is this a reasonable return for 4th level slots when you've got 6th level slots available?

By 15th level, we can reasonably look at five, maybe six 4th level slots, for a total of 165 (or 198) hp of healing. Sure, you're burning all of your 4th level slots to surpass one 6th level spell, but you didn't have to prepare them in advance and you did have at least fourteen higher level spell slots (if you include the domain spells) to play with for other purposes. That doesn't seem too severe.

Where I will agree with you is on the issue of diminshing returns. The return on a wand carrying any cure spell plummets rapidly with the increase in spell level. The number of wands of cure light wounds you can buy in place of one wand of cure critical wounds more than makes up for the inconvenience of having to spend four times as long healing up. You'd burn out four of those lesser wands by the time you burned out the greater one, and you'd still have fifty-two lesser wands to go!

Your suggestion doesn't fix that, however, and that's the real concern, as I see it.
arson
05-08-05, 02:39 AM The Vigor spells from Complete Divine don't get much attention.

Lesser Vigor cast by a 15th level cleric heals 15 hp, and Vigor heals 50 hp. Granted, they aren't spontaneous, but a wand of Lesser Vigor easily outperforms a wand of CLW.

A bit off topic, but the use of these spells might help fill out the healing gap.

True, the vigor spells are useful, given that they're prepared by a high enough level caster with enough time for the duration to play out.
On the wands, remember though that a Wand of Lesser Vigor at a higher caster level would cost much more (750xCL). at CL1 Lesser Vigor isn't worth it; CLW is still more cost effective.
Worguron
05-08-05, 03:08 AM Actually, a Wand of Lesser Vigor is extremely useful after combat. One Wand healing 11hp per charge costs the same as a Wand of Cure Light Wounds that heals 2-9 hp per charge. Sure, it takes a little while longer, but when you aren't in combat it is much more cost effective and reliable.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yunkel 05-07-05, 12:13 PM	I dont know if this has been discussed before but here we go. this is what it is now: a lvl 15 cleric. cure light wounds - cures 1d8 (4) + 5 = 11 hp cure moderate wounds - cures 2d8 (8) + 10 = 18 hp cure serious wounds - cures 3d8 (12) + 15 = 27 hp cure critical wounds - cures 4d8 (16) + 15 (lv 15) = 31 hp heal - cures 150 hp!!!!! whats this!!! see the big difference 31 to 150!! healing 31 hp to a fighter of that level is nothing! almost every enemy (CR 15) deals 31 points of dmg with each hit. Its a fourth level spell, it should cure more. this is how it should be: cure light wounds - cures 1d8 (4) + 5 = 11 hp cure moderate wounds - cures 2d8 (8) + 10 = 18 hp cure serious wounds - cures 4d8 (16) + 15 = 31 hp cure critical wounds - cures 6d8 + 2/level (24) + 30 (lv 15) = 54 hp hope 3.6 fixs it.
Santrilla 05-07-05, 12:30 PM	Well, you're ignoring the Mass versions of those spells, which come in at intervals. Those basically share out a larger amount of healing between multiple targets. So, assuming maximum targets affected per level, and minimum caster level per spell, the amount of total hitpoints healed is: CLW Mass = 1d8 + 9 x 9 = 117 CMW Mass = 2d8 + 11 x 11 = 209 CSW = 3d8 + 13 x 13 = 325 CCW = 4d8 + 15 x 15 = 465 Which is actually significantly higher than Heal. Of course, Healing Circle is a totally different kettle of fish...
Someone 05-07-05, 12:35 PM	Well, another 6th level spell, mass cure moderate wounds would heal: 2d8 (9) + 15 (lvl 15) = 24 x up to 15 = up to 360 hp total. So the heal spell is simply taking all of that potential and focusing it on just one subject. Yes, its a huge jump between 4th and 6th level spells. What I think is more needed is a 5th level spell "lesser heal" to bridge the gap between cure critical and heal. Maybe 5 hp/ caster level and not as much status effect healing. p.s.: I need to write replys faster....
DeadEye19 05-07-05, 12:47 PM	The mass versions' maximum "+1 per caster level" is also higher, +25,+30,+35,+40. This spells are also usefull for potions, or in a spell storing item when used against undead... Altough this is not relevent to the issue you brought up.
lint trap 05-07-05, 01:17 PM	The Vigor spells from Complete Divine don't get much attention. Lesser Vigor cast by a 15th level cleric heals 15 hp, and Vigor heals 50 hp. Granted, they aren't spontaneous, but a wand of Lesser Vigor easily outperforms a wand of CLW. A bit off topic, but the use of these spells might help fill out the healing gap.
Shaudes29 05-07-05, 05:54 PM	dont forget radient servent of palor w/ augmnet healing and maximized, empowed healing
Shatteredtower 05-08-05, 12:20 AM	I dont know if this has been discussed before but here we go. this is what it is now: a lvl 15 cleric. cure light wounds - cures 1d8 (4) + 5 = 11 hp cure moderate wounds - cures 2d8 (8) + 10 = 18 hp cure serious wounds - cures 3d8 (12) + 15 = 27 hp cure critical wounds - cures 4d8 (16) + 15 (lv 15) = 31 hp heal - cures 150 hp!!!!! The math is off. It should average 11, 19, 28, and 33 hp. Remember, the average of 2d8 is 9, not 8. whats this!!! The excessive use of exclamation points? Yeah, I see it. :P see the big difference 31 to 150!! Yes, much like I see the big difference between a 4th and 6th level spell. So? healing 31 hp to a fighter of that level is nothing! In much the same way that most offensive 4th level spells aren't that impressive once you've got 6th level options? No, make that 8th level spell options, since your comparison is based on 15th level casting. Should we be impressed by the 4th level spell at that stage? Now if you'd compared this at 11th level, the difference is 4d8+11 (29 hp) vs. 110 hp. That 4th level spell might not do much for your 11th level fighter, but it's not a bad chunk of change for the 11th level wizard. Here's the thing you've forgotten, though: my cleric has to prepare heal. Once the battle is done, I can burn any spell slot of 4th or higher level on cure critical wounds. By the time I can prepare heal once or twice, I can cast cure critical wounds no less than five times (assuming that no other 4th or 5th level spell slots were used), with seven uses a reasonable possibility with the modified Wisdom score my character would likely possess at that level. Even if only the 4th level slots are used (and the 5th level slots saved for other spells to support the team or crush the enemy), that's 16d8+66 hp at 11th level, or 158 hp of healing on average. Is this a reasonable return for 4th level slots when you've got 6th level slots available? By 15th level, we can reasonably look at five, maybe six 4th level slots, for a total of 165 (or 198) hp of healing. Sure, you're burning all of your 4th level slots to surpass one 6th level spell, but you didn't have to prepare them in advance and you did have at least fourteen higher level spell slots (if you include the domain spells) to play with for other purposes. That doesn't seem too severe. Where I will agree with you is on the issue of diminshing returns. The return on a wand carrying any cure spell plummets rapidly with the increase in spell level. The number of wands of cure light wounds you can buy in place of one wand of cure critical wounds more than makes up for the inconvenience of having to spend four times as long healing up. You'd burn out four of those lesser wands by the time you burned out the greater one, and you'd still have fifty-two lesser wands to go! Your suggestion doesn't fix that, however, and that's the real concern, as I see it.
arson 05-08-05, 02:39 AM	The Vigor spells from Complete Divine don't get much attention. Lesser Vigor cast by a 15th level cleric heals 15 hp, and Vigor heals 50 hp. Granted, they aren't spontaneous, but a wand of Lesser Vigor easily outperforms a wand of CLW. A bit off topic, but the use of these spells might help fill out the healing gap. True, the vigor spells are useful, given that they're prepared by a high enough level caster with enough time for the duration to play out. On the wands, remember though that a Wand of Lesser Vigor at a higher caster level would cost much more (750xCL). at CL1 Lesser Vigor isn't worth it; CLW is still more cost effective.
Worguron 05-08-05, 03:08 AM	Actually, a Wand of Lesser Vigor is extremely useful after combat. One Wand healing 11hp per charge costs the same as a Wand of Cure Light Wounds that heals 2-9 hp per charge. Sure, it takes a little while longer, but when you aren't in combat it is much more cost effective and reliable.