Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Amaki 02-13-04, 07:21 PM	Ok... i never played with wizards before and this question came to me when i was thinking about let my elf/bard gain some lvls of wizard (because my group itīs a mess :( without arcane spellcasters...) In D&D 3.0, elf chars even with 4 hours of "sleep" (or meditate, whatever), NEEDS to have more 4 hours of total rest, before prepare his spells... my question is, if a ring of sustenance do almost the same that the elfīs sleep, if a wizard uses one... he still have to wait for the next 6 hours to prepare his spells? Ok, maybe iīm wrong, because i didnīt read yet about this ring... but for me, the effects sounds similar with the meditate state of the elves... but with 2 hours, not 4... but the book saids that even their body has rested, their magical force still need some time to be used again... What exactly is the right thought about this ring and this confusion that iīve created? >_<
D.A.Dervish 02-13-04, 07:27 PM	Yup, your right on the spot. However, the ring does not make you go into an elf's meditive trance thing. It simply makes you need less sleep. To prepare spells, however, you need to have 8 hours of rest, not sleep. Also, do not forget about the recent casting limit. Ie you can't prepare a spell if you have cast a spell from that slot in the past 8 hours. Oh, and as a sidenote, it is probably not a good idea to gain "a few levels of" wizard, as the pure caster classes often become seriously lacking if you do not keep full casting level. /J.Dervish
Amaki 02-13-04, 07:48 PM	Oh, and as a sidenote, it is probably not a good idea to gain "a few levels of" wizard, as the pure caster classes often become seriously lacking if you do not keep full casting level. yeah... :) i know about that... but i think itīs time to fix it... my char itīs a bard 2... and my group has a cleric/ftr 1/1, a rogue 2, a druid 2 (with ranger complex... i KNOW that he will get lvl of ranger soon) and a ftr 2... we have finded a lot of wizards things, but i dont have identify and spellcraft (yet, yes, itīs a big fault :weep: ... )... im getting mad, they dont care about how arcane things can be dangerous, im certainly sure that we will end carrying something cursed... (if we already dont have... >_<) Also, do not forget about the recent casting limit. Ie you can't prepare a spell if you have cast a spell from that slot in the past 8 hours. Oh... i really have forgotten that... tnks for remind me! If even a ring of sustenance cannot decrease these hours of rest, needed by a wizard, it has some spell or magic item it can? Anyway, tnks Dervish! ^_^
Bopple 02-13-04, 09:16 PM	To prepare spells, however, you need to have 8 hours of rest, not sleep. Hrmm...Have there been any official ruling to this? Of course, rest is not sleep. But sleep is rest. If, you got refreshed only with 2 hrs of sleep, but it was not a rest(just because the letters of the words are different), then the concept sounds too weird.
Lia Nightdemon 02-13-04, 10:01 PM	The destription in the 3 DMG of the sleeping part of that ring is: The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that the wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep. so the wizard only needs 2 hours with this ring since it lets her get enough energy as though she slept for 8 hours good investment for a wizard. who has time to sleep 8 hours a night while venturing?
Zitchas 02-13-04, 10:14 PM	Ummm... I'll be the disenter here. The elves meditative trance and the Ring should both reduce the total time required to prepare/rest for their spells. Note that this shouldn't actually reduce the time required to memorize them (in the case of wizards) or pray for them (in the case of priests/druids), but it should reduce the amount of time spent spent recuperating from the previous day so that said charactar can get onto the buisness of spell studies. The exception to this is Sorcerers, who are using inate energies. I'm rather of two minds on them. The first is that, in general passing of time, they should recover a spell slot 24h after they cast that spell slot. Thus resting only benefits fatigue/health, and the ring and elvish abilities don't affect spells. A bit akward to keep track of in general game play, but fits best. The other is rather like the first, except that time spent resting should accelerate the pace that the sorcerer recovers energy. AKA resting a good 8h recovers all the spell energies they used during the previous day. In this later case, Rings and elvish trance should help, as they essentially enable the charactar to rest more effectively/deeply. For memorizing/preparing/etc, it states that one requires 8h of rest. It can be assumed that this involves 6-7h of sleep and 1-2h of actual reading/praying/meditating on ones magic. Thus if one has said ring, the sleeping component thereof could be reduced to 2h. Obviously, you can't be memorizing while sleeping, so add on 1-2h (DM's discretion, I suppose) for memorization, and you come up with 3-4h. Even if not as impressive as 2, it's still a huge improvement over 8h. In theory, this Ring can be stacked on top of the Elvish ability, roughly quartering it, (assume a half, for ease of use), enabling them to get by on 2-3h total.
Blind_Wolf 02-13-04, 10:40 PM	The ring makes you need less sleeping time, but what if the power to spellcasting do something more to the mind that he needs more time to rest? So I think that the wizard should rest more 6 hours to prepare his magic.
Eldren 02-13-04, 11:08 PM	I was really hoping they were going to clarify this in the 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide, but alas, they haven't. :( My recommendation is to seek out the advice of Skip Williams, The Sage, at tsrsage@aol.com This being said, the argument has gone on long and hard for many iterations of this board. It essentially splits into about three camps, as far as I can tell: Camp 1: The camp that admits that while rest is not always sleep, sleep is always rest (unless there are extenuating circumstances, such as being dream-ridden by a night hag). With this being said, it's only logical to conclude that if the Ring of Sustenance indicates it grants the full benefit of 8 hours of sleep, which this camp believes includes rest, then an arcane spellcaster (divine casters don't require rest, only to pray for their spells at the same time each day) with this ring can refresh their spells after having only 2 hours of sleep. The downside to this is a) The logic then indicates that elves, who only trance for 4 hours, seemingly gaining the same benefit from their trance that other races do from 8 hours of sleep, could prepare their arcane spells every 4 hours without the ring, and b) This makes the ring significantly more powerful for spellcasters, which under normal circumstances would raise its price, since its actual value is greater than the technical value of its item construction. While I haven't yet reconciled those things, I've ultimately concluded that a Ring of Sustenance will allow arcane casters to prepare their spells after only two hours of sleep/trance (since it's only logical that this ring would cut elves' trance down to 2 hours as well). So I fall into Camp 1. Camp 2: This is the camp that believes the ring would be vastly overpowered as written if it allowed arcane casters to re-prepare their spells after only two hours. However, they're willing to find some happy medium so that the players don't feel pooched, and their campaigns aren't completely screwed over. Camp 3: This is the camp that says, unequivocally, that whether you actually gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep from only 2 hours with the ring or not, you still require 8 hours of active rest or "downtime" before you can prepare your spells again. While not always, often people from this camp seem to think that magic, on the whole, is a bit too powerful in the Dungeons & Dragons game for their personal tastes, and they seek ways to bring it back in line with how powerful they personally think magic ought to be. This is neither wrong nor right; it's their personal preference. I can only say that I personally would not enjoy playing in such campaigns. So choose your camp. In the meantime, I'm off to send an e-mail to The Sage.
Varellan 02-13-04, 11:28 PM	What was actually already said but somehow forgotten in the course of this thread, is the fact that spellcaster (arcane and divine) cannot prepare or use (in case of the sorcerer and bard) spells in slots which where used during the last 8 hours. So wether one could prepare spells after 2, 4 or 6 hours or not is absolutely irrelevant as two uses of the very same spellslot have to be a minimum of 8 hours apart. Even if 2 hours of sleep while wearing this ring were sufficient rest. No spellcaster could make any real use of it. That is the balancing part to the ring. Its only real purpose is to be independent of food and water supplies and be able to take longer turns at guarding the camp outdoors.
Zitchas 02-13-04, 11:40 PM	I suppose then that I am strongly in camp 1. Although I think it should also depend on the campaign setting. In a high magic world where there's quite a bit of energy floating around, I think it should deffinitly be camp 1. If it's one of the low magic world where magic is rare and precious, and thus not easy to acquire, then camp 3, since your spellcasters are going to need all the time they can take to get their energy back from strenuous casting. Also taking into acount things like the relevant strength of the group, and oponents. When your party is regularly running into things with CRs traditionally way above their level... Then er on the side of camp 1. Likewise, if the wariors and none-spell casters are wandering around with fairly powerful magical items and/or powerful templates/races/classes, then letting mages get by with having the ring function as camp 1 would like. On the other hand, if the oposites are true... Then not. All in all, I'd say it comes down to DM's discretion, because of variation.
NestroEmichae 02-14-04, 01:24 AM	My advice is to ignore Skip Williams. All he can do is provide you with an opinion, and sometimes he will directly disagree with the stated rules. Look under the elf example. If the elf still needs more hours of rest after meditating, then the wearer of the ring still needs more hours of rest. If the elf does not, the ring does not. Since elf's meditation and the Ring of Sustenance provide a similar effect, they both operate under the same rules. That's going by the logic of the DnD rules. I'm firmly in camp three, as it is the only one that fits the rules without causing logic problems.
Eldren 02-14-04, 02:35 AM	Nestro: While you're, of course, free to ignore or validate Skip Williams at your leisure, one thing to remember is there's a reason his opinions carry as much weight as they do: He's the primary source behind the original 3rd Edition mechanics. He had a strong hand in designing the Dungeons & Dragons rules as we now know them, and whether he's an official Wizards of the Coast employee or not (and for the record, he no longer works for WotC), he's still considered the authority when it comes to the rules. While there are times when he'll give an opinion that's directly contrary to what's published, we also have to realize that when you're part of a writing team, you're going to have to make concessions that you wouldn't have if you were the sole writer. So what happens then is the individual writers who had to make concessions on some things go off and publish their own third-party d20 System materials, like Bruce Cordell and Monte Cook have done, particularly in the area of psionics. Chances are, if Skip has an opinion that differs from the written rules, it's because that opinion is the way he would have wanted things done if he didn't have to make concessions to the other members of the 3rd Edition design team. Of course, much of it is a moot point. If you've read Monte Cook's review of 3.5, you realize that Skip, Monte, Bruce, et. al. had little to nothing to do with the actual changes which occurred in the 3.5 Core Rulebooks. There's a reason so many people derogatorily refer to 3.5 as "Andy Collins' House Rules". While I love the contributions that Andy has made to Dungeons & Dragons, the reality is that he did some things that weren't done in 3.0, which Skip had a huge hand in writing. Revisions aren't supposed to be contradictions of existing material, they're supposed to be supplemental to the original material. Contradictions are more the purview of a new edition. There's a good deal of material in 3.5 that blatantly contradicts material from 3.0, ranging from saving throws against Harm to the removal of the partial action to placate those who wouldn't stop whining about 3.0 Haste. Recommendations to ingore Skip Williams when it comes to rulings on Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition are ballsy, to say the least, and it makes about as much sense as telling someone to ignore Robert Jordan whenever he comments on the Wheel of Time (the books, not the RPG). It'd be like telling someone to ignore George Lucas on all things Star Wars. We may not always like some of the things that Lucas does (just like there are those who don't like some of the rulings that Skip Williams makes), but the reality is that Star Wars is George Lucas' baby, and what he says goes. For the most part, other than the fact that Skip no longer works in an official capacity for Wizards of the Coast, what he says regarding 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons should, likewise, "go", and I don't mean "leave", I mean, "He wrote it, he clarified it, I believe it, and I play it." Worst-case scenario, you just decide that what he writes isn't appropriate for your own campaign, and that's fine. No one would begrudge you that choice, because the Dungeon Master is the ultimate arbiter of their own campaign. But making a blanket statement to ignore Skip Williams is just crass.
Sheer_FALACY 02-14-04, 03:31 AM	Originally posted by Eldren There's a good deal of material in 3.5 that blatantly contradicts material from 3.0, ranging from saving throws against Harm to the removal of the partial action to placate those who wouldn't stop whining about 3.0 Haste. They didn't remove the partial action. They simply renamed it, because for some reason they had two different full round actions. In 3.0, a standard action was a full round action and consisted of a partial action and a move equivalent action. There was no real reason for this. 3.5 simplified it; there is no relation to haste. Haste was nerfed as something completely seperate, and to anyone who complains that metamagic rods are now core I would like to point out that you can get a greater metamagic rod of quicken any number of times per day for the price of a third level spell, and still be able to use an additional quickened spell. Also, a 9th level spell can duplicate the effects of this 3rd level spell and people still complain (although this might just be people complaining for the sake of complaining).
NestroEmichae 02-14-04, 10:03 AM	Eldren, that entire post was an interesting speech and totally missed an important part of the difference between DnD and something like Star Wars (the movies, not the game). That point is this: DnD is a game, and in it the main thing most people have to deal with are the rulebooks. If it's not in the rulebooks or in errata for them, it's not official. And it doesn't matter if it is the janitor or Gary Gygax (one of the creators of DnD), the rulebook and the errata are the only official sources to look at for the rules. As much as I enjoyed laughing at the arguement, you must remember that games belong to a different set of standards than books, movies, paintings, etc. Take Resident Evil for example: No matter how much the company that created it tried to change the storyline for the fans, the fans mostly ignored it because it wasn't in the game. So, the company merely released newer versions of it. In their case, it was mostly money and to get people to stop bugging them. They realized the game was the primary source of information and that they had to change the game. When it comes to RPGs, the order of credibility actually has the rulebooks as the highest. Why? Because the rulebooks are the actual material you use. You can change the material using house rules, but those are not official. And it doesn't matter who you are, whether some random guy on the street or the revered guru who helped create it, as your comments must be checked by what they say in the rulebook. If they had wanted to change the Ring of Sustenance, they should have done it when the issue first came up in an errata. Now, all Skip Williams can do is provide an opinion and hope WotC changes it. And to be honest, I can ask one of my rules lawyers who have memorized 3.0 and 3.5 rulebooks whether the fourth word of the ninth line of the second column on page 89 starts with a consonent or a vowel and get an accurate answer every time. Skip Williams isn't the most knowledgeable person of the rules, despite the fact he helped create them. The rulebooks are, mainly because they always have the rules in them. If Skip wants the rules changed, he can work with WotC to put out an errata. Until then, he is just another unofficial source voicing his opinion. Even my rulings are unofficial. It's the rulebooks that are the only completely credible sources of information, and as long as we use them for games they shall continue to be such.
Eldren 02-14-04, 11:46 AM	I agree with you completely, Nestro. Let's not be mistaken about that. The rulebooks are the final arbiter, outsider of Dungeon Master fiat, of how the game is intended to be played. This being said, however, there are areas in the rulebooks which aren't clear. They don't cover every situation, which is why we have things like Sage Advice to clear those things up. For lack of a better term, Sage Advice is there to be the Core Rulebooks in areas where the actual Core Rulebooks fall short. I haven't picked up a single issue of Dragon since 3rd Edition came out (nothing to do with 3rd Edition; I just coincidentally haven't picked up an issue of Dragon), but I'm to understand that even though he's no longer a Wizards of the Coast employee, Skip still writes that column in Dragon as a freelancer. The rules, quite simply, because of the wording of the Ring of Sustenance in the 3.0 or 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide, aren't clear on whether Wizards or Sorcerors can benefit regarding their spellcasting renewal. Since they aren't clear, individual Dungeon Masters either have to make a house rule (which is fine, but which individual players who disagree are wont to seek out as official a countermand as they can acquire; in this case that would be either Skip Williams or WotC Tech Support), or they have to do what their dissenting players do, and seek out official commentary on their own. Chats with The Sage, or e-mails to him, or happenstance of it being dealt with in an actual Sage Advice column, are about the only reliable methods of acquiring this official ruling that the majority of players are likely to accept. It still remains entirely in the purview of individual Dungeon Masters to say that such a ruling has no validity in their campaign, but they should do so with the knowledge that they are countermanding as close to an official ruling short of republishing the Core Rulebooks as they're going to get. On a complete side note, I'm still honestly surprised that they didn't clarify the Ring of Sustenance for 3.5. That's one thing that 3.5 did really well at, was clarifying nebulous issues from 3.0. There were many people, myself included, who wondered whether, practically, Negative Energy Protection would protect someone from Harm, since the latter spell dealt its damage with negative energy. I personally found that on these boards, those who argued against it had to rely on such a tremendously literal interpretation of what was written in the spell's description that they missed the likely intent of the spell entirely. However, they technically had the rulebook on their side, only from the perspective of "It doesn't say it can, so it most obviously can't." Usually it works the other way around, where you can unless it says you can't, but oh well... So 3.5 comes along, and while Negative Energy Protection gets folded into Death Ward, the wording of Death Ward still points so strongly to the fact that it will protect from Harm (even the nerfed 3.5 one) that someone who wants to argue to the contrary is likely arguing just to make a lot of noise, not because they're legitimately trying to convince someone of their perspective's veracity. 3.5 also did an awesome job clarifying both the Daern's Instant Fortress (i.e., the item can be shrunk down and reused) and the Boccob's Blessed Book (clarifying, once and for all, that it does allow a Wizard to bypass the costs for scribing spells into it). And yet the Ring of Sustenance remains a bone of contention. Blatantly, it contradicts rulings from the Magic chapter of the Player's Handbook which state arcane casters require 8 hours of rest to prepare their spells (or open up their daily slots again in the case of the spontaneous casters), because its use of the phrase "full benefit of 8 hours of sleep" gives a strong case to those (like myself) who want it to let arcane casters renew their magic after only 2 hours. It causes discussions that the rules simply don't cover (such as, "Why does it require 8 hours? Is that just mental refreshment, or something supernatural occurring?"), which force further house rules, until the whole thing becomes so muddied that people are forced to snap back to the Dungeon Master's Guide's literal wording, which still leaves things open to discussion. It becomes a circular argument in the classic sense of the term. I'm awaiting response from Skip on the issue, and once I get a response from him, I'm going to post it in this thread. You can choose to think of it as an opinion all you like; to use game terminology, it would be kinda like getting an opinion on the old GURPS system from Steve Jackson himself. It might not be published in the hard-copy rulebook(s), but if it comes from the very person who wrote those rulebooks, I think you'll find that its validity isn't in question from a sensible perspective.
NestroEmichae 02-14-04, 03:50 PM	Actually, you will find that I will be unconvinced by anything Skip says. An answer he gave one of my players that directly contradicted the written rules caused enough of an arguement that I had to kick that player out in order to continue playing. As such, I've banned his decisions from my game and refuse to accept anything he says without checking it myself. He has no credibility in my eyes, and I'm not the only one who won't accept his decisions. Take a look at a discussion on the What's a DM to do? forum. If you wish to use a person who helped write the current set of rules to prove your point, find someone else. I hold his answer as unadmissable for this arguement. As I said, the rulebooks and errata are what I hold as most valid. If what Skip says disagrees with those rules, then Skip's answer is merely wrong. And I say the same thing about any other game developer. It's not that I'm being unreasonable, but that I have had enough bad dealings with RPG makers who later change their minds about what the rules should say. They are only human, after all. And, they sometimes have forgotten what they have written down and simply give the houserule they use as though it is the truth. Finally, the books are what you are intended to look at for the answers, not the developers. If you were intended to talk entirely with the developers, this would be a video game and not a PnP. In any case, I thought the Ring of Sustenance thing was obvious: Look at the elf's meditation. It has a similar effect as a Ring of Sustenance when it comes to sleep. Thus, logic states they both fall under the same ruleset.
Eldren 02-14-04, 06:02 PM	It's unfortunate you had a player who was simply unwilling to accept the Dungeon Master's authority in his own campaign. But it probably isn't fair to blame that on Skip, even if it was his ruling that caused your player to become unruly. Heh, I made a funny.... :rofl: Anyway, as I said, when the rules in the Core Rulebooks, and any other books being taken as canon in a given campaign, are clear on something, then contradictions to those rules should be taken lightly, or not at all, even if they come from someone who helped to write the rules in the first place, such as Skip Williams. However, in issues where the rules, quite simply, aren't clear on something (as with a Ring of Sustenance and arcane preparation), you need to seek out as official a response as you can get, both so you have internal consistency and so you can't really give a dissenting player much room to maneuver. As much as we, as Dungeon Masters, might prefer otherwise, if a player has much room to dissent on something they disagree with, they will dissent on that, and the hardline of "I'm the DM, and it's my campaign" doesn't work as well as it ought to. Skip Williams is as close to an official ruling on nebulous rules for 3rd Edition as we can get. Yes, it's still ultimately an opinion, but the option is to either, as the Dungeon Master, make a house rule on a nebulous issue and call it good, and hope your players accept it, or try to head off potential dissension by having the weight of semi-officiality behind your ruling, i.e., a response from someone who helped to write the rules that are being nebulous.
NestroEmichae 02-14-04, 06:07 PM	Actually, I'm still saying the RoS is covered by the same rule as the Elf's trance. Take a look as similarities of function. The rule isn't unclear at all. As for Skip Williams: I can get better sources than him. Someone who works for WotC I might give a chance. Skippy already used his.
Eldren 02-14-04, 06:53 PM	An elf's trance is significantly different than the Ring of Sustenance, for one primary reason: The elven trance isn't magical, the ring is. The elf's trance is a function of their biology. The Ring of Sustenance provides magical refreshment to body and mind (and says so right in the description of the item) in place of that gained from normal sleep patterns. Thus, the ring even enables an elf to only trance for two hours, just like humans; the difference is normally an elf needs only four hours, while the other Core races all need eight. It makes sense that the elven trance wouldn't refresh their minds significantly enough for them to re-prepare their arcane spells. Technically elves don't need to sleep at all; if you refer back to the 2nd Edition "Complete Handbook of Elves", you'll see that their trance (which was there called "Reverie") is a means of keeping in touch with memories acquired over centuries of living. It's a logical biological mechanism for processing, cataloguing and retrieving memories which might be hundreds of years old, without the elf's sanity or mental cohesion being broken down. As I already noted, discussions like this force people into areas of erudite rules suppositions which are neither supported/denied by the rules, nor particularly intended to be there in the first place, but I'll progress nonetheless. The Ring of Sustenance provides magical energy which bestows the full effects of a full night's sleep on the wearer, amongst other things (such as not needing to eat, etc.). The key phrase here is "full benefit". One benefit of a full night's sleep is the ability to reprepare your arcane spells. Normally, all races require 8 hours of uninterrupted rest (which is most often facilitated by sleep) to have the mental capacity to do this; one could logically infer from the whole process that the issue of containing magical knowledge that's alien to normal brain functions in a mind requires a fully rested mind trained to do so, and the casting of spells is mentally exhausting, and on occasion physically (and, with XP costs, spiritually) exhausting. So rest periods are required in between full preparation of arcane spells so the mind can once again handle the alien knowledge. It's kinda like sitting there doing equations for quantum physics all day, and at the end of the day, attempting to maintain the same sharpness and clarity of mind that you had when you started at the beginning of the day. You're tired, you're worn out, and the brain needs a rest from all the high-level activity. It's similar with spells. You've crammed knowledge into the brain that it wasn't specifically designed to handle in large amounts. You've essentially extended the pliability of your short-term memory, since spells are fire-and-forget. This is taxing on the brains of most sentient creatures that bear nominal resemblance to humans (as do all the Core races in Dungeons & Dragons) on a biological level. So you have this ring which allows your mind to refresh itself, because of magic, after only two hours instead of 8 (which is still the recommended amount of sleep for most adults). In theory, if the mental refreshment has been provided, all benefits that accrue from having a mentally acute mind should also be present, such as arcane preparation. See what I meant? The rules weren't quite designed to handle this kind of discussion. They often don't go into why something is, they simply say it is. The rules indicate that you require 8 hours of rest (which sleep provides) to prepare arcane spells. The rules indicate that a Ring of Sustenance provides the full benefit of 8 hours of sleep, which facilitates rest. Ergo, Wizards, Sorcerors and Bards can reprepare their spells after only 2 hours of sleep with the ring.
NestroEmichae 02-14-04, 07:25 PM	Eldren, it would be nice if the rules supported you. However, the rules do not state how the trance works or that the magic provided by the ring overrides the rules. In fact, let's look at what the SRD says: Rest: To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells. Note that it states they must have 8 hours of restful calm. What does the ring say? Sustenance: This ring continually provides its wearer with life-sustaining nourishment. The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep. The ring must be worn for a full week before it begins to work. If it is removed, the owner must wear it for another week to reattune it to himself Nowhere does it state this is any different from the trance. What the trance says: Elves do no sleep, as members of the other common races do. Instead, an elf meditates in a deep trance for 4 hours a day. An elf resting in this fashion gains the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep. From the 3.0 PHB. I have heard this hasn't changed and can't be bothered to diig up my 3.5 books. This is from the Rest portion. For example, elven wizards meed 8 hours of rest rest to clear their minds even though they need only 4 hours of trance to refresh their bodies (so they could trance for 4 hours and rest for 4 hours and then prepare scrolls). Guess what? Nowhere does it state that the ring and the trance work differently. Nowhere. Thus, saying that the ring works differently just because it is magic is ignoring the fact the ring does not state that. And to clarify the issue: From the 3.5 PHB errata: When you find a disagreement between two DnD rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. <SNIP> Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC classes, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something from the Dungeon Master's Guide or Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The DMG doesn't state the item as being an exception to the rest rules or as being different than the Elven trance. Thus, the RoS is covered by the same rule and you would still need 6 more hours of rest.
Eldren 02-14-04, 10:36 PM	I see what you're getting at, Nestro, but some of your argument is fallacious in nature. For instance, you're assuming that since the description for a Ring of Sustenance doesn't indicate that it's different from the elven trance, that it is then the same as the elven trance, and that's not a good, logical approach to something. If someone were to write up an official description of Microsoft Windows, and not indicate in it that it was different from Apple OS X, that doesn't then mean that Windows is the same as OS X. We all realize that it isn't the same thing. Likewise, the elven trance is a natural function of their race that shares some incidental similarities with the magical effects provided by the item we're talking about, but that doesn't mean that one rule for something entirely unrelated should then be used to justify a lack of clarity in the rules for something else. The bottom line is that the rules for the Ring of Sustenance are nebulous at best, since they don't indicate, one way or the other, whether the ring has any effect on the amount of time needed before an arcane caster can prepare their spells again. Since the item doesn't indicate this, and since there's nothing else in the Core Rules indicating that the ring either does or doesn't allow arcane casters to prepare after only two hours of sleep with the ring's abilities, one is then forced to look at circumstancial evidence. So you quote the issue of elves who trance still needing 8 hours of "restful calm" before they can again prepare their arcane spells. However, the description of the Ring of Sustenance indicates that its wearer gains the "benefit of 8 hours of sleep." One of those benefits, for arcane casters, is the ability to prepare spells in slots that were previously cast prior to the restful period. The normative game assumes 8 hours of rest (give or take) for all Core races except for elves. Magic items, by necessity, have to be exceptions to the normal rules, which don't assume the presence of a given magical item (for instance, the rules for the Fighter don't include text that assumes the eventual acquisition of enchanted weapons or armor, even though the level-based values for PCs in the Dungeon Master's Guide does). The entry for a Paladin is for a Paladin without magical items. So since magical items must be exceptions to the rules, they require their own rules to see how they dovetail with the rules that have nothing to do with their presence (i.e., the class and spell descriptions from the Player's Handbook). We come once again back to the fact that the Ring of Sustenance grants the benefit of 8 hours of sleep after only 2 hours of sleep. What are the benefits of 8 hours of sleep (for everyone except elves)? You suffer no fatigue penalties during the following day. You're able to prepare your arcane spells, as your mind is refreshed. You are "rested". So if the Ring of Sustenance indicates it grants the benefit of 8 hours of sleep from only 2 hours of actual sleep, then we can infer a couple of things: 1. Elves, who require only 4 hours of trance, which is for them equivalent to 8 hours of sleep for other races, can benefit by requiring only 2 hours of trance time with this ring. 2. Anyone who requires 8 hours of rest (which is the result of the prescribed amount of sleep) to prepare their spells can prepare their spells after only 2 hours, since their mind is fully refreshed, as though they had just slept (and thus rested) for 8 hours. I don't see the problem here. The rules aren't clear regarding the effect of a Ring of Sustenance on an arcane caster, so one is forced to instead make a logical conclusion based on other information tangentially related to the issue at hand, as I've done here. The elven trance is not the same thing as the magically-enhanced sleep period provided for by a Ring of Sustenance. Just because they're both reductions for the required sleep periods for the Core races doesn't mean they're the same thing. And just because it doesn't say they're the same thing doesn't mean they are.
Edymnion 02-14-04, 11:46 PM	This question comes up at least once or twice a month. No, the ring does not change how long it takes you to get new spells. Look at Elementals, they don't sleep at all. There is the Elemental Savant PrC that turns you into an elemental creature. You do not require sleep at all. That does not mean that you never need to rest to get your spells back. You need 8 hours between your last casting and the time you can memorize new spells. Nothing changes that. Elves get totally refreshed both mentally and physically from 4 hours of trance. They still have to sit around and do nothing for another 4 hours before they can memorize spells again. I'm sorry if I sound testy, but seeing this question come up time and time again gets extremely repetative. Always seems to me like the people arguing that the ring makes you only take 2-4 hours to get your spells back are the same people that are trying to power game twice as many spells per day by having their elf wizard take a 2 hour nap in the afternoon with the ring on and then saying "Well, its the same as 8 hours rest, so I get all my spells back for the second half of the day, right?" No, you don't. Stop trying to cheat the system. As for official responce, I believe its actually in the official FAQ that you still need 8 hours of rest before you can prepare spells again, regardless of what happens in those 8 hours. It can be solid sleep, it can be 4 hours of trance and 4 hours of reading a book, or it can be 2 hours of elf trance with Ring of Sustenance and 6 hours of twiddling your thumbs. You still take 8 hours, and you cannot do anything constructive in any shape, form, or fashion during those 8 hours, or it isn't resting.
Hypersmurf 02-15-04, 12:00 AM	Originally posted by Eldren The rules indicate that a Ring of Sustenance provides the full benefit of 8 hours of sleep, which facilitates rest. "Elves do not sleep, as members of the other common races do. Instead, an elf meditates in a deep trance for four hours a day. An elf reasting in this fashion gains the same benefit that a human does from eight hours of sleep." Is it your contention that "the same benefit that a human does from eight hours of sleep" is different to "the full benefit of eight hours of sleep"? If so, does this mean that a human who sleeps for eight hours does not gain "the full benefit of eight hours of sleep", since a human sleeping for eight hours must by definition receive "the same benefit that a human does from eight hours of sleep"? An elven trance provides "the same benefit that a human does from eight hours of sleep"... and that explicitly does not include the benefit that eight hours of rest provides - namely, the ability to prepare arcane spells. Unless "the same benefit" and "the full benefit" are (somehow) different, this implies that "the full benefit of eight hours of sleep" that the ring provides also fails to provide the benefit of eight hours of rest. -Hyp.
Eldren 02-15-04, 12:08 AM	I'm afraid I don't quite understand your post, Hyp. Mind clarifying it a bit for me? Although you might have stumbled on an apparent rules inconsistency, which is always nice to find. The theory is that elves gain the same benefit from 4 hours of trance that humans do from 8 hours of sleep, i.e., they can operate without fear of fatigue penalties setting in. For non-spellcasters, that 8 hours of rest (or 4 hours of trance if you're an elf) is all that's needed. However, elves apparently don't gain the same benefit from 4 hours of trance as humans do from 8 hours of sleep when it comes to spellcasting. Thus, if they don't receive that last little bit of mental refreshment, why shouldn't they receive fatigue penalties the next day? Does the trance only refresh their bodies, but not their minds? Humans can once again prepare arcane spells after 8 hours of sleep, which they require anyway. Elves, however, apparently can't prepare arcane spells if they only take advantage of their trance; they require another four hours of "downtime", even while awake, before they can prepare their spells. A huge inconsistency has developed here. The only logical conclusion from this is that elves do not gain mental refreshment from their trance, only physical refreshment (since an elf who isn't a spellcaster can trance for 4 hours, and then operate at the same efficacy as a human who's slept for 8 hours). Perhaps it might have instead behooved WotC to not tie arcane spell preparation into sleep, and instead to have simply said, "8 hours must pass between arcane preparation times." This would avoid a lot of contention over the Ring of Sustenance. Perhaps in 4th Edition.
Hypersmurf 02-15-04, 12:14 AM	Originally posted by Eldren However, elves apparently don't gain the same benefit from 4 hours of trance as humans do from 8 hours of sleep when it comes to spellcasting. The description of trance makes no such distinction. It clearly states that they gain the same benefit that a human does from eight hours of sleep. The only consistent conclusion is that "the benefit of eight hours of rest" - not being granted by trance - is not part of the benefit a human receives from eight hours of sleep. Thus, another effect that provides the benefit of eight hours of sleep - the Ring, say - will also fail to provide the benefit of eight hours of rest, given the above conclusion that such is not included in the benefit of eight hours of sleep. -Hyp.
Eldren 02-15-04, 12:35 AM	But there's where we reach the inconsistency: For humans, dwarves, half-elves, gnomes, halflings and half-orcs, at least, 8 hours of sleep does provide 8 hours of rest as well, enough for them to prepare arcane spells. Elves seem to be the only race that doesn't gain appropriate mental rest from their biologically natural period of downtime/rest (their trance). Thus, the problem lies in how elves are written up, at least for this side argument. The only other conclusion to reach is that elves do gain the same benefit from 4 hours of trance as humans do from 8 hours of sleep. Since we know a human who's slept for 8 hours can prepare their arcane spells, and if we know that elves do gain the same benefit from 4 hours of trance as humans gain from 8 hours of sleep, it's only logical that elves should be able to prepare arcane spells after 4 hours of trance. Thus, the rules have made it less-desirable to play an elven Wizard, since they can't take advantage of their natural racial bonus of only requiring 4 hours of rest each night.
fruits and vegetables 02-15-04, 12:37 AM	ring of sustenance is over-rated. it rarely comes into play. usually it is just the player bringing up the fact that they don't need food and only need 2 hours sleep. otherwise for me it is an item i would factor in when planning on a desert, sea, or tundra adventure. i would keep it on my person just in case but would'nt wear it unless i had the open slot. and about that sleep=trance logic: whatever. my advice, don't complain when your DM tells you no. to use your logic could mean that the word sleep is unclear. i would have your character enter into a deep slumber similar to a coma of which you can not waken until your 2 hours sleep is up. you would give up being able to be awaken in exchange for fewer hours rest. that would be my approach if i were your DM. i would let you think the rule worked the way you wanted it to until the issue of you being awake came up. hopefully it would be during an ambush. let me see how i can manipulate a couple rules using your logic........... elves do not need sleep as members of the other common races do....conclusion: uncommon races do not need sleep. an elf meditates in a deep trance for four hours a day.....conclusion 1: all other races do not trance, including uncommon races that do not need sleep. conclusion 2: elves must enter their trance during the day.
NestroEmichae 02-15-04, 01:05 AM	Eldren- Actually, your arguement is false. You keep adding things into the rules that are not there. Top it all off, you have added words into my arguement that were not there. I said the two are similar, not the same. Just as dogs and cats are similar, there are many rules both must obey. However, there are also rules that casts obey that dogs don't. But when dealing with the basics, they are similar enough to fall under the same rules. You state that elves obviously do not gain the full benefits of 8 hours of sleep. Where in the rules does it state that? I want exact quotes that prove it. It says that Elves get the same benefits as 8 hours of human sleep after 4 hours of trance. One of the benefits of 8 hours of sleep for humans is the ability to prepare spells. But wait, why can't Elves? Simple: It's a time thing. A person must rest for a full 8 hours, be they Elf or human. The RoS is stated as having a benefit similar to what the trance gives. Yet, the trance doesn't give the benefit of being able to cast spells after the shorter amount of time. That leaves the conclusion that the ring, as not being stated as an exception to the rules, must obey the same rule. Just going by the rules as stated, there is no conflict or lack of clarity. Oh, it doesn't have to state in the books that the RoS is part of the rule in order for the rule to apply. Why? Look at the errata quote. It provides the necessary reasoning. The DMG cannot contradict the PHB when it comes to matters that fall under the PHB's domain. That includes how long one must rest to regain spells without the item being stated as an exception. And the RoS is not stated as an exception. You must remember something else: If it is not stated as being an exception to existing rules that cover the topic it is addressing, then it also must obey those rules. That is a basic law of roleplaying games. I've provided all of the necessary evidence. All you have to do is read my quotes.
Hypersmurf 02-15-04, 01:11 AM	Originally posted by Eldren But there's where we reach the inconsistency: For humans, dwarves, half-elves, gnomes, halflings and half-orcs, at least, 8 hours of sleep does provide 8 hours of rest as well, enough for them to prepare arcane spells. Elves seem to be the only race that doesn't gain appropriate mental rest from their biologically natural period of downtime/rest (their trance). Humans rest while they're sleeping. Elves rest while they're trancing. Thus, in four hours, elves receive four hours of rest (and the benefits thereof), and the benefits of eight hours of sleep. Someone wearing a Ring of Sustenance rests while he's sleeping. Thus, in two hours, he receives two hours of rest (and the benefits thereof), and the benefits of eight hours of sleep. Neither the benefits of two hours nor of four hours of rest is sufficient to prepare arcane spells. -Hyp.
NestroEmichae 02-15-04, 01:14 AM	Eldren, I just realized something. Under your logic, magical items would require their own table of attack/AC/etc. stats that followed different mechanics than the rest. Why? Because they are magical and exceptions to the rules. Most magical items are not exceptions to the rules, but a mere extension of them.
twentythree 02-15-04, 01:28 AM	OK let me have a try at this... Humans have to sleep for 8 hours a night to avoid fatigue and such, ok? Sleep, being an action of low activity, is allowed to be done while resting. Does this make sense to anyone? Since sleep is considered low-activity, you can "rest" at the same time as you sleep. No where does it say that sleeping facilitates resting. So it would be fallacious to assume that just because you are done sleeping, that you are done resting. The argument that sleep = rest is purely symantics. Hope it helps and makes sense, --Brien
NestroEmichae 02-15-04, 01:35 AM	Originally posted by twentythree OK let me have a try at this... Humans have to sleep for 8 hours a night to avoid fatigue and such, ok? Sleep, being an action of low activity, is allowed to be done while resting. Does this make sense to anyone? Since sleep is considered low-activity, you can "rest" at the same time as you sleep. No where does it say that sleeping facilitates resting. So it would be fallacious to assume that just because you are done sleeping, that you are done resting. The argument that sleep = rest is purely symantics. Hope it helps and makes sense, --Brien Do not forget that you can also sleep without getting any rest. That has been accomplished before.
Sheer_FALACY 02-15-04, 02:13 AM	A human with a ring of sustenance should not be able memorize spells after less time than a fire elemental that never sleeps or eats. Period.
Hypersmurf 02-15-04, 02:24 AM	Originally posted by Sheer_FALACY A human with a ring of sustenance should not be able memorize spells after less time than a fire elemental that never sleeps or eats. Period. One line of argument I've seen (note - not one I personally subscribe to :) ) is to point out the wording of the line in the preparation section: "If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing spells." An elf is a character that does not need to sleep for some reason. A fire elemental is a character that does not need to sleep for some reason. A human with a Ring of Sustenance is not a character that does not need to sleep for some reason. She still needs to sleep (albeit only for two hours); therefore the line "she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing spells", which only applies to characters that do not need to sleep for some reason, is inapplicable. By this line of reasoning, of course, an elf with a Ring of Sustenance does still need eight hours of restful calm, since she is still a character who "does not need to sleep for some reason". (Like I say - not a line of argument I personally subscribe to :) ) -Hyp.
NestroEmichae 02-15-04, 02:38 AM	Hyper- I've actually used that portion as part of it. However, another portion is this: A person doesn't have to sleep for the entire 8 hours. It says so long before it mentions those who don't sleep.
Xychotic 02-15-04, 02:48 AM	To quote the ring, "The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep for 2 hours per day to get the benefits of 8 hours of sleep." (DMG 3.5e, p. 233) And then, there's the elf, "...an elf meditates in a deep trance for 4 hours a day. An elf resting in this fashion gains the same benefit that a human does of 8 hours of sleep." (PHB 3.5e, p. 15) Funny thing is, a human can regain spells after 8 hours of sleep. That's one of the benefits. And yet, and elf cannot regain spells after 4 hours of trance. Glancing behind the curtain would likely reveal that this is an artificial restriction solely for the purpose of game balance. As far as a I know, a human starts to peter out after about 16 hours of activity. An elf seems to be able to keep going for 20 hours. And a character that has a ring of sustenance can keep going for 22 hours! So, it stands to reason that being able to prepare spells is not actually a benefit that a human gains after 8 hours of sleep (or an elf from 4 hours of trance, or anyone from 2 hours from the ring) and is instead a benefit of 8 hours of restful calm and abstaining from casting. By that train of logic, we are forced to declare that a character wearing a ring of sustenance cannot prepare a new battery of spells after sleeping for 2 hours and instead must abstain from nearly all activity for an additional 6 hours (resulting in 8 hours of rest). And yet, the ring specifically states that it refreshes mind and body. So, my response to this question is... ask your DM. I would rule against it because it thinking behind the curtain gives me the idea that it gives far too much of a benefit for a mere 2500 gp.
Ryll 02-15-04, 03:33 AM	There seems to be enough on both sides of this argument, for so long, that it would have been a good thing for WoTC to have clarified in the Ring of Sustenance description. Of course I would bet anything that they would rule you need to spend the 8 hours resting. Why? several reasons 1) It doesn't make sense. 2) It is NOT overpowered. (Since you still cannot mem spells you CAST in the last 8 hours, those you would have to wait until the time had passed, THEN spend 15 minutes to mem them) 3) It would benefit the casters, and not melee (since the physical part already applies to both, and therefore the melee got their benefit) It is rather clear that WoTC would rule that the ring (which takes up a Ring slot, where a useful item could also go) does NOT negate the need for 8 hours rest... the need for the 8 hours rest is less realistic, FEELs more like a video game (Sure you got your 8 hours sleep, but the energy crystals have not completely filled up) and generally hurts casters much more than melee types. :)
adiaven 02-15-04, 03:47 AM	I don't see why you all are having this argument. Even if a wizard could prepare her spells more than once in a 24 hour period (being elf or ring of sustenance), you still don't get to cast more spells than your daily spell slot limit. Note that there is no relation between rest or sleep and your daily limit of spells. There is a relation between rest or sleep and preperation of spells, but merely preparing a spell won't let you cast it again. You need daily spell slots to do that. Those only refresh with time. Usually 24 hours in most game worlds.... This is all very clear on page 178 of the PHB (3.5) Spell Slots: The various character class tables in Chapter 3: Classes show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots.... So all the ring allows a wizard to do is something like this: Wizard wakes up and prepars Identify in a 1st level slot. Halfway through the day, the Wizard has not cast Identify yet, and decides to rest (2 hours, 4 or 8 depending on how you see the normal, elf, ring argument) and prepare a new spell instead of Identify. The PHB is pretty clear that you can not cast more spells per day than your daily spell slots.
Sheer_FALACY 02-15-04, 03:53 AM	It isn't a daily spell slot limit. The only limitation on memorizing spells is that any slots used in the previous 8 hours cannot be refilled. This applies whenever you take the time to rest 8 hours. You could rest eight hours, memorize, then cast a whole bunch of spells, then rest eight more hours, memorize, then cast a whole bunch of different spells, then rest eight hours, memorize, and have a full complement of spells available.
adiaven 02-15-04, 03:57 AM	Uhh.. Sheer_Fallacy, what part of this statement is unclear: "The various character class tables in Chapter 3: Classes show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. " Not per resting, or per preperation, but per day It can't be any more clear than that. I don't know what lead you to think resting gives you new spells for that day. Resting just allows you to prepare the spell slots you have.
Hot Rod 02-15-04, 06:19 AM	Originally posted by adiaven Uhh.. Sheer_Fallacy, what part of this statement is unclear: "The various character class tables in Chapter 3: Classes show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. " Not per resting, or per preperation, but per day It can't be any more clear than that. I don't know what lead you to think resting gives you new spells for that day. Resting just allows you to prepare the spell slots you have. day is not a defined term in this case :P Can an astral character EVER re-memorize spells? If the world has a 6 hour day/night cycle does he get 2x more spells per day? IMO A day is defined as a wake period between rests. Thus the reason for discussion at all. Unlike clerics, wizards do not get their spells back at dawn/noon/evening automatically (time deturmined by their religion) So for Arcane casters it is a very relevant question. IMC I've never seen a ring of sustenence, so haven't worried about it. :) Though I'd likely stick with 8 hours of inactivity prior to preparing spells, some (or all) of which may be sleep or meditation. (Though I think disallowing conversation during that period is rather extreme...)
adiaven 02-15-04, 07:01 AM	Originally posted by Hot Rod A day is defined as a wake period between rests. Uhh.. who and where defined a day as THAT? So if I take 2 naps while george stayed up, does that mean I'm 2 days older than george?? who exactly has to rest for a day to go by?? And to think I've always considered a day a full revolution of the planet. A day is a day. If in your campaign, a day is only 6 hours, then so be it. A wizard can cast all his spells every 6 hours. On a planet like that, life would adept differently to the conditions. It may be common to stay awake for 3 days at a time, then rest for 2. Or life evolved to equip on 1 hour rest every 6... who knows. But most campaigns use 24 hour days, and thats how long the PHB says it takes for a wizard to get her spell slots back.
fruits and vegetables 02-15-04, 07:27 AM	i sort of did. i was using a gross abuse in abstract thought to explain the line of thinking another poster was using when defining sleep. just read my previous post. P.S. if only i spoke as well as i typed...alas.:(
Iver Gearsham 02-15-04, 07:37 AM	The coolest use of the ring is for making magic items. If the maker of an item has the spell slots available for two days of work on a magic item then they can put in two days worth of work every day. You could continue this effort for as many days worth of spells you had available needing to stop only two hours each actual day for rest not gaining any spell slots back of course. Depending on what level your charater was is how long you could go at it. If you throw in a Room of Hast from the Stronghhold Builders guide book you could put in the equivalent of four days of work in to one day. And you only get spell slots back every 24 hours After an 8 hour rest not spells.
Garan 02-15-04, 07:49 AM	I am unsure how other people consider this discussion, but I see it hinging on the relationship of two terms: sleep and rest. pg 122 PHB: A character that sleeps in medium or heavy armor is automatically fatigued the next day. He or she takes a -1 penalty on Strength and Dexterity and can't charge or run. pg 308 PHB: fatigued: Tired to the point of impairment. A fatigued character can neither run nor charge and takes a -2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes the fatigued character to become exhausted. After 8 hours of complete rest, fatigued characters are no longer fatigued. So I ask myself two questions from this information in hopes of obtaining the true relationship between our terms: 1. Is sleeping in medium or heavy armor restful? I would say no. 2. Does a ring of sustenence provide sufficient rest in two hours of sleep to recover from fatigue? I would say yes. Of course there's further questions that I don't feel strong enough to answer... such as: Does sleeping in medium or heavy armor prevent the memorizing of spells?
NestroEmichae 02-15-04, 10:47 AM	Guys, something to think about: The ring has you sleep for 2 hours instead of 8. Doesn't that mean it would have an ellf trance for 1 hour instead of 4? Garan- Actually, the answer to your second question is no. Look at the Elf's trance. It provides the same benefit as 8 hours if human sleep in 4 hours and still must rest for a total of 8 hours to regain spells. That is the precedent in the rules. As for your armor question: I would say it isn't. And I would laugh at the stupid PC who attempted it.
Eldren 02-15-04, 11:02 AM	Nestro... :rolleyes: You've gotta get off of the assumption that the reduced sleep as a function of an elf's biology and the reduced sleep manifested through magical refreshment from the Ring of Sustenance are the same thing. Fact is, they're very different things that have similar effects.
NestroEmichae 02-15-04, 11:28 AM	Originally posted by Eldren Nestro... :rolleyes: You've gotta get off of the assumption that the reduced sleep as a function of an elf's biology and the reduced sleep manifested through magical refreshment from the Ring of Sustenance are the same thing. Fact is, they're very different things that have similar effects. :rolleyes: I must ask this: Have you even read the majority of my posts? Have you even bothered to check the terminology I use at all? How much of my posts have you read? I'm honestly in shock that you made that reply. I had expected better. Okay, let's stop and go over this again: I have often said they are similar. In fact, in one post I gave an example of two dissimilar animals as backing that I am not stating they are the same. You might want to go back and read it again. I am stating the similar effects both fall under the same rule. Now, on to your arguement about them: Prove it. I've posted my proof. Now you find and post the rules that state the RoS is not going to obey the same Rest rule as the Elf's trance when it comes to effects. I want quotes from the SRD, 3.0, and 3.5 core books and errata. FAQs are not official and, as such, are not acceptable. Most importantly, I'll say this again: STOP ADDING ON TO THE RULES! Find me where it says that the RoS's magical sleep is different from the Elf's trance. Find me the part where it states that the trance is a result of biology. And remember that I'm only accepting the same stuff I have used as proof: The core books, the errata of the core books, and the SRD. FAQs are not acceptable as they are not official changes of the rules. The ball is in your court. How you play it is up to you.
Zitchas 02-15-04, 01:41 PM	OK, so essentially both sides here have battered each other into oblivion, more or less. Here's a question for the lot of you. How much does it actually affect game play? I have yet to be in a campaign where every hour counted to the point where we had to push to memorize faster, or anything. About the only situations where I can see this isuue being critical are a) when there's a substantial chance of the mage being ambushed while resting/memorization, thus if he/she/it can get his spells into memory 6h faster, that's a fairly significant increase in his/hers/its chance of survival. b) in magic heavy campaigns where, for whatever reason, the mages needs to be casting lots of spells on a regular basis. (being artilery support or antimagic support for an army going against an oponent(s) wth much in the way of magic, comes to mind as a good case, or when the party is under threat of an attack of some nature that only magic can counter, thus needing the mage up and active with full spells as often as possible.)
NestroEmichae 02-15-04, 01:49 PM	How much does it actually affect game play? At the lower levels, it typically doesn't. However, at higher levels the differences begin to get huge. Why? Players are making magic items, spending months outside of inhabited areas, fighting more creatures more often, etc. I've noticed the parties that only need 2 hours typically outstrip those that need 8 in power level. In some of my campaigns it has actually unbalanced the game as a whole. Keep in mind I'm playing regular DnD, but my players look for every advantage. They sometimes need it.
Hypersmurf 02-15-04, 03:22 PM	Originally posted by NestroEmichae The ring has you sleep for 2 hours instead of 8. Doesn't that mean it would have an ellf trance for 1 hour instead of 4? No. Two hours of sleep wearing the ring provides the benefit of eight hours of sleep. It's not suggested that the effect is proportional. If you sleep for one and a half hours, you haven't slept for two hours, so the ring's benefit is not realised. You'd gain the benefit of one and a half hours' sleep. It's also debatable as to whether elves can benefit from this effect of the ring at all, since you must sleep to realise it, and the description of elves in the PHB states very simply "Elves do not sleep". If you give a command-word activated item to a creature whose description states "These creatures do not speak", then it's of little use to him - he can't activate it. If you give a sleep-activated item to a creature whose description states "These creatures do not sleep", the same logic applies. -Hyp.
badger3k 02-15-04, 03:56 PM	Interesting point on that Hypersmurf. Never thought of that before. I'm in the last camp - the ring provides rest for mind and body, but magical energy is unrelated to either. Both fatigue and exhaustion are physical penalties - nothing happens to the characters Int, Wis, or Cha if they are exhausted. So why should either state afftect their magical energies? The ring of sustenance affects the natural state of the character, but has no effect on its magical abilities. The argument of sleeping in the middle of the campaign (say at noon) to regain all the spells cast 9 hours before (that's counting the 8 hours of rest) is the biggest reason not to allow the recovery I've seen. The 24-hour/daily limit on spell slots is the rule. Sleep all you want, rest all you want, if you don't cross the 24hr line (usually either midnight or the wake-up of characters is the typical point of refreshment that I've seen) then you get no slots. You may, if the DM is generous, be allowed to prepare spells, but until the slots themselves are regenerated, the prepared spells will be of no use. Now if the ring of sustenance stated that it provided spell slots, that woud be different. As it is now, the only way that I can see spellcasters benefitting is a wizard who wanted to change his prepared spells for uncast slots. That might make the ring usable in some cases (allow the wizard to rest for two hours in the middle of the day to change his charm monster spell to a Stone Shape that is needed to get into or out of an area, for example). The arbitrary point of regaining spell slots is more of an ease-of-use consideration than anything else. Imagine trying to keep track of when a particular spell slot was used to make sure it recovers at the 24-hour mark. Well, the ring can be handy too if the characters need to keep moving - for example, it allows a wizard to prepare spells after two hours of sleep (if interpreted that way), meaning the party can have a better chance of catching the group they are hunting, or getting away from the orc trackers while still keeping spell power up. A time saver, but not a power saver, and definitely not one that allows a wizard or other caster a free boost in spell power. Considering a ring of wizardry grants spell slots, and costs 20K gp, getting similar but more powerful effects for 2500 gp doesn't make any sense.
twentythree 02-15-04, 04:19 PM	Originally posted by Xychotic [font=tempus sans itc] Funny thing is, a human can regain spells after 8 hours of sleep. That's one of the benefits. And yet, and elf cannot regain spells after 4 hours of trance. font] no where does it ever say that regaining spells is a benefit of sleeping. It is a benefit of RESTING! SLEEPING does not equal RESTING. YES, they can be accomplished at the same time, but, NO, they are not the same thing. --Brien
adiaven 02-15-04, 07:58 PM	Originally posted by twentythree no where does it ever say that regaining spells is a benefit of sleeping. It is a benefit of RESTING! SLEEPING does not equal RESTING. YES, they can be accomplished at the same time, but, NO, they are not the same thing. --Brien No where in the book does it say regaining spells is a benefit of rest. It says you need 8 hours rest to prepare your daily spells. You don't regain spell slots with rest. period. It merely allows you to prepare spells for the spell slots you have available.
Xychotic 02-15-04, 10:16 PM	Enh, my sig says it all.
NestroEmichae 02-16-04, 12:25 AM	Originally posted by Hypersmurf No. Two hours of sleep wearing the ring provides the benefit of eight hours of sleep. It's not suggested that the effect is proportional. If you sleep for one and a half hours, you haven't slept for two hours, so the ring's benefit is not realised. You'd gain the benefit of one and a half hours' sleep. It's also debatable as to whether elves can benefit from this effect of the ring at all, since you must sleep to realise it, and the description of elves in the PHB states very simply "Elves do not sleep". If you give a command-word activated item to a creature whose description states "These creatures do not speak", then it's of little use to him - he can't activate it. If you give a sleep-activated item to a creature whose description states "These creatures do not sleep", the same logic applies. -Hyp. Hmm. I need to remember to mark my joke posts. The comment you replied to was supposed to be a joke.
Eldren 02-16-04, 05:00 AM	Nestro: Short and sweet on this one, because it's 1:45 in the morning, I've just finished DMing a long session, and I'm kinda tired. It's a three-day weekend for me, and I'm looking forward to sleeping in one day this week where I don't have to use an alarm clock to wake up. My contention is your assumption that since the rules don't say the effects of a Ring of Sustenance and an elf's trance aren't the same, that they are. I don't buy that. Nowhere does it indicate, in either the description of an elf's trance or in the description of the Ring of Sustenance, whether you're talking 3.0 or 3.5, that the effects are the same as each other with respect to arcane preparation. It's pointless to reference the SRD, because it says less, actually, than the actual Core Rulebooks. The SRD is there for people who want to make something with the d20 System logo on it, and otherwise, I personally find it kinda bothersome that people attempt to circumvent the purchase of the Core Rulebooks by using the SRD. Not only does it lack some information, but the information it does provide is completely flavorless. So the onus falls on you to prove your point, which you haven't yet done. You've referenced that elves require 8 hours of rest, irregardless of the fact that they only require 4 hours of trance to receive the same benefit as another race sleeping for 8 hours, to prepare their arcane spells. That's fine. I claim it's a function of their biology because they aren't listed as an inherently magical race in the Player's Handbook (although it's listed that magic comes more naturally to them), and because there are no magicks designed to suppress this (i.e., it isn't a supernatural or spell-like ability; in fact, it isn't even an extraordinary ability; it's simply a racial trait). But in referencing the description for both elves (and their trance) in the Player's Handbook and the Ring of Sustenance in the Dungeon Master's Guide, there are no indications of a correlation between the two. For example, consider Ghostwalk, which has a feat called "Ethereal Sidestep". It says the feat operates identically to Dimension Door. WotC has always been pretty good, particularly in 3.5, at indicating when one ability operates in the same fashion as another ability listed elsewhere. Neither the Ring of Sustenance nor elves' trance indicate that they operate identically to one another. Since we don't have an indication that they do, that doesn't mean we should then assume that they do. In fact, with no indication that they function the same, it's much safer to assume that they, in fact, don't. The effect of each is similar on a base level, as both are methods for a character to reduce the amount of time they have to spend in sleep/downtime. The similarity, I posit, ends there. Elves don't require less food than other races. The Ring of Sustenance allows you to go without food. Barring unusual circumstances, sleep is restful. You require 8 hours of rest to prepare arcane spells. The Ring of Sustenance indicates that you receive the benefit of 8 hours of sleep from only 2 actual hours of sleep. If rest comes from sleep (which more often than not it does), and 8 hours of sleep gives you 8 hours of rest (which more often than not it does), which allows you to prepare arcane spells, then any effect that mimics 8 hours of sleep should also allow one to prepare arcane spells, unless otherwise stated. Elves require 4 hours of trance to function like the other races, i.e., to go through their day without suffering from fatigue penalties. However, the rules for elves and their trance specifically state that they still require 8 hours of restful calm before they can prepare their arcane spells. The rules are explicitly stated for elves, in the description of the elf race, and are nowhere else mentioned, other than in the magic chapter of the Player's Handbook. The rules as written there are for a character devoid of something which changes normative circumstances into exceptional circumstances. The Ring of Sustenance changes the circumstances into exceptional ones. You no longer require 8 actual hours of sleep to get the benefits of that sleep; you now require only 2 hours. The Ring indicates that you receive the benefits of 8 hours of sleep from only 2. One of the benefits of sleep is rest, as has been mentioned. Ergo, the Ring of Sustenance grants the ability to prepare arcane spells after only 2 hours, because it refreshes the mind a way identical to 8 actual hours of sleep (which coincidentally also offer rest, barring exceptional and unusual circumstances). Since no other Core race requires less than 8 hours of sleep a night to avoid fatigue penalties, and since elves, as the sole race that do have something different, have specific rules in their racial description dealing with arcane magic preparation, it's safe to assume that for other races, the Ring of Sustenance is going to grant the benefits of 8 hours of sleep, which as I have said several times in this post often grant 8 hours of rest as well. 2 hours of sleep with the ring equals 8 hours of sleep without the ring. 8 hours of rest enables someone to prepare arcane spells. Sleep grants rest usually. If 2 hours of sleep with the ring equal 8 hours of sleep without the ring, and 8 hours of rest (which is a byproduct of sleep) enable someone to prepare spells, then 2 hours of sleep with the ring enable someone to prepare spells as though they had slept for 8 hours. It's pretty simple, to me.
fruits and vegetables 02-16-04, 05:09 AM	.....ergo.....i love the matrix. sorry, spam. on topic, i agree with eldren. the logic of the other guy is amusing to me. he has got to be a difficult player to use that kind of reasoning. sorry, just calling a spade a spade man.
Hypersmurf 02-16-04, 05:17 AM	Originally posted by Eldren However, the rules for elves and their trance specifically state that they still require 8 hours of restful calm before they can prepare their arcane spells. The rules are explicitly stated for elves, in the description of the elf race, and are nowhere else mentioned, other than in the magic chapter of the Player's Handbook. The rules as written there are for a character devoid of something which changes normative circumstances into exceptional circumstances. That's not a rule for elves. It's a rule for preparation of arcane spells. "To clear her mind, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she must still have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells." It's not a rule for elves; it's a rule that applies to elves, and elves are used as an example. "An elf meditates in a deep trance for four hours a day. An elf resting in this fashion gains the same benefit that a human does from eight hours of sleep." "... its wearer needs only sleep two hours per day to gain the benefit of eight hours of sleep." What two hours of sleep with the ring provides is that same as what four hours of trance provides - the benefit of eight hours of sleep. The benefit of eight hours of sleep does not include "eight hours of restful calm", as stated in the Magic section. The fact that the ring is magic doesn't change that. -Hyp.
fruits and vegetables 02-16-04, 05:21 AM	uhhh, to clarify my last post. it was in regards to the true meaning of sleep for the ring of sustenance. i have not read much else anyone has posted about the specifics thereof. i do not care for the specifics. it was the micro-analyzing of the word sleep that i thought was rediculous.
Archangel 02-16-04, 07:33 AM	OK after reading 2 pages of this argument let me also say my opinion: 1. I have a friend that likes to argue about every rule that is somehow conected to wizards because he just loves that class, so trust me when I say this, he can be very persuasive and knowledgeble about every rule, and even he said that with the ring wizards must rest additional 6 hours. So I would have to say that my view point on the official rules is the same as the 3rd group. Also to support this claim is the sentence that said: even those who for some reason doesn't sleep need to rest for 8 hours to regain spells; since 0 hours sleep is the least time one can sleep I believe WoTC deliberately chose this to say that even those that do not need to sleep or sleep less have to rest for 8 hours to regain spells! 2. I must say that even before I started reading this topic I was already totally on the side of 3rd group but since going through all 2 pages I have changed my mind, at least roleplaying wise! I still agree that official rules state what I said in No. 1 but I will from now on allow elf spellcasters to prepare spells after 4 hours of trance. Elves are magical creatures in all the novels I've read (and I've read a lot of novels) and I believe that they are not very well represened in the core rule (I miss the times of 2nd edition and elves not being seen in forests if alone or with other elves). As for the RoS I could also allow it to function as this new elf trance for non-Elf races but then the price would have to go way up (at least 10 times)! 3. I do not understand why this argument is 2 pages long since you all started repeating yourselves and no official has been heard of, so just ask for a official ruling or find another topic!
NestroEmichae 02-16-04, 10:20 AM	3. I do not understand why this argument is 2 pages long since you all started repeating yourselves and no official has been heard of, so just ask for a official ruling or find another topic! You missed the one where it lasted for 15 pages and ended with it being closed. In any case, this is pretty much wrapped up and finished. Most of the recent stuff is people comming in and adding their own views.
twentythree 02-16-04, 11:31 AM	Originally posted by Eldren . 2 hours of sleep with the ring equals 8 hours of sleep without the ring. 8 hours of rest enables someone to prepare arcane spells. Sleep grants rest usually. If 2 hours of sleep with the ring equal 8 hours of sleep without the ring, and 8 hours of rest (which is a byproduct of sleep) enable someone to prepare spells, then 2 hours of sleep with the ring enable someone to prepare spells as though they had slept for 8 hours. It's pretty simple, to me. [/B] Your offkey assumption, in my opinion, is that sleep "grants" rest. I maintain that sleep is considered an action of low-activity, and therefore allowed to be done while resting. The ring let's you be not fatigued, and operate as though you had slept, but you still need the additional hours of rest if you are an arcane spell caster. When it comes down to it, the argument is as simple as whether sleep grants rest, or whether sleep can be gained while resting. Since I can find no quote that says sleep grants rest, I will maintain that since sleep is low-activity, it can be done while resting. Hope it makes sense and helps, --Brien
Kyuketsukiouji 02-16-04, 12:01 PM	I agree with those who believe that the Ring of Sustenance does not help get spells faster. Sleep and rest are definitely not the same thing. As a matter of fact, it's quite possible to rest and get your spells back without getting any sleep at all. And if you do that, what does the ring do? If the ring did allow you to rest faster, it would say so, since rest and sleep are indeed independant actions. Yes, sleep is one of the activities you can do *during* rest, but it's not the only one. Elven reverie is another, but you'll note the rulebooks are quite clear that that's not enough for 8 hours of rest. It is, however good for 8 hours of sleep, which is about as clear as you can get that sleep and rest are different things. You could smoke your pipe for 8 hours, and that would be enough to have qualified as rest (but not sleep, so you'd take the fatigued penalties if you spend all night smoking). Since sleep and rest are not the same, we have to go look at the Ring's description. Does it talk about rest or sleep? It only talks about sleep. Thus, it doesn't cover rest. So you can use it to sleep for 8 hours in 2 hours, but you'll have to spend the next 6 hours resting if you want to get your spells back.
Beamup 02-16-04, 12:10 PM	The PHB makes it very clear that preparing spells is a matter of you having to rest for 8 hours, no matter how much time you need to rest in a day for health reasons. The phrasing used for the RoS and elven trance is nearly identical. The RoS does NOT allow you to rememorize spells after 2 hours of sleep. Period.
Eldren 02-16-04, 03:24 PM	Well folks, here's as official an answer as we're going to get. I wrote to Skip Williams at tsrsage@aol.com and asked him about the Ring of Sustenance and arcane preparation, and his responses are below. Given the content of those responses, I figure the only more official ruling we'd get is if it was written in a newly-published Dungeon Master's Guide in the Ring of Sustenance description. Re: Ring of Sustenance Question I'm sure you've been bombarded quite frequently with this question, but as I can't find a reference anywhere, I thought I'd get your take on it.<< Skip's Response: So often I'm finally putting it into the column for issue #320. Can arcane casters re-prepare their spells if they've only slept for 2 hours while wearing this ring? Skip's Response: No. The ring indicates that it grants the "full benefit of 8 hours of sleep", but there seems to be some contention as to whether or not this would include a reduction of the "downtime" needed between arcane preparations. I'd like as close to the definitive word on this as I can come, and I can't think of anyone whose input on the 3rd Edition rules is more "definitive" than yours. Skip's Response: Sorcerers and bard gets spells once a day, period. Wizard need 8 hours of rest to regain spell, even when they don't have to sleep--see Preparing Wizard spell in Chapter 10 of the PH (page 178 in the 3.5 PH). So there's the official word. The Ring of Sustenance has no effect on arcane preparation. While I personally disagree with this, I'm willing to now, at least, concede that if I allow the Ring to shorten time between arcane preparations, I'm doing so as a house rule and not as a logical extrapolation of the written rules.
NestroEmichae 02-16-04, 11:46 PM	Eldren- You do realize he just told you exactly the same thing I and several others have been saying, right? I'm glad to see he changed his mind about the RoS (again), but I still don't accept what he says as official without checking the rules.
Eldren 02-17-04, 12:30 AM	Nestro, while what Skip Williams told me echoes what you and several other posters have noted, the reality remains that while you and the other posters were noting it, it was an opinion. While Skip's reply is still an opinion, the reality remains thusly: Skip Williams helped to write the Core Rulebooks for 3.0 The Ring of Sustenance has not changed one single word from 3.0 to 3.5. In other words, the Ring of Sustenance on page 233 of the 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide is exactly the same as the Ring of Sustenance on page 195 of the 3.0 Dungeon Master's Guide. Skip Williams helped to write the 3.0 Dungeon Master's Guide along with Monte Cook and Jonathan Tweet. Since the ring hasn't changed from 3.0 to 3.5, the ring we work with in 3.5 is the same Ring of Sustenance that Skip Williams helped to write the rules for. As one of the authors of the rules, his opinions (and, since he is no longer a Wizards of the Coast employee, his statements must remain opinions) carry significantly more weight than if you, I or someone else on these boards gave our own input. You say he's changed his opinion on the ring "again". Please show me, with links or direct quoted text (with reference for the source material) where he originally wrote an opinion that differed from this one. Since we don't have 3.5 errata for the Dungeon Master's Guide yet, errata for 3.0 books is valid, as are Dragon Magazine Sage Advice articles. However, if his response to me is any indication, issue #320 of Dragon Magazine is likely to be the first time he'll have ever published a Sage Advice column containing this information. Saying Skip Williams' input on the Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition rules isn't "official" is kinda like saying that George Lucas' opinion on something from Star Wars isn't official. If you have to use game material as a reference, it's kinda like saying that something Gary Gygax would have said about a rules clarification for the 1st Edition Player's Handbook wouldn't have been valid. Whether you personally choose to validate their input or not, the fact remains that as the authors of their respective material, any input they give forth on that material is more official than anything you or I could do short of actually getting employed by Wizards of the Coast ourselves, and being on the writing team for successive revisions of the item in question. You said you aren't willing to accept what he says as official without checking the rules. That's fine, you can check them until the cows come home. The whole reason we had a discussion that's gone for three pages at this point is because the rules weren't clear on this. The wording of the Ring of Sustenance (and keep in mind that it did not indicate its restorative effects were identical or even similar to elven trance) was nebulous enough that we had to take three pages of online posting to arrive at a conclusion, and were it not for my having contacted Skip myself and gotten a response from him, this discussion would still have been raging. It's winding down now, which is fine; I imagine in a month or two, someone else will bring the whole issue up again. In the meantime, I'm happy acknowledging that my insistence that the Ring of Sustenance will shorten the time required between arcane preparations is a house rule, but that's the way it's going to remain in my campaign. Do what you will in yours. Happy gaming. :)
Bopple 02-17-04, 12:50 AM	Thanks, Eldren. Now it is clear. (though I wonder who would want to burn a precious item slot and money for such item)
NestroEmichae 02-17-04, 12:56 AM	Eldren- It also doesn't state that the world has oxygen. In that case, you should have your characters roll saves vs. suffocation from the point they are created. (This, of course, is to point out a flaw in your statement.) Did it say it ignored the rules on rest? No. The only valid arguement is whether or not rest = sleep, and that was taken out by the Elf example. Thus, the rules were against you. I quoted them on the first page and all you had to do was read them and apply some common sense. Nowhere in the book does it state what would happen if the players drank a potion of acid. Does that mean the rules are unclear? In any case, all you had to do was remember this: If it is not stated as being an exception to a rule and that rule has an example with similar results under it, then that example is meant to be used for what you are trying to find. That is just a basic part of roleplaying. Also, you have not proven that the rule was unclear. In fact, there are plenty of examples before this post of people who saw the same evidence and saw it is clear. As for Skip: Two e-mails, the first one saying the same thing as this one and the second one contradicting it were obtained by my rules lawyers. They presented that to me this morning and I was quite surprised. You might want to ask Skip how often he changed his mind on this one. I'll also say this: If it turns out the second one is a fake, my rules lawyers will not like the results. I do not like being lied to or having false evidence presented to me. I also do not present such information online at this time because I am not sure of its veracity due to them conveniently not providing a source. You can expect me to investigate where they got those further anyway. I will say this: If George Lucas were to make a statement that contradicted one of his movies about events in it, I would definitely question his authority on Star Wars. Game developers have even less credibility than movie makers off the bat because of the number of them, the fact they have to compromise, and the long history games have of the developers either producing untrustworthy work on their own or of giving out wrong answers. Skip helped create the game, but that still doesn't give him more than passing credibility at best and makes every incorrect answer he gives a disasterous blow to that credibility. After all, if a developer doesn't know what he helped create... And yes, Skip has given out wrong answers before. Ask around on this site and you will get your examples. Now, why do I view my opinion as carrying weight: I actually used evidence to back it. You can find my evidence at any time. And you'll find it is the same exact evidence given by Skip, only given before you asked him. I at least was willing to give you quotes you can read for yourself. That evidence is what gives my opinion weight, not whether or not I helped write it. Now, no hostility beyond this. I treat everyone the same way. Saves time and skips the crap. Also, please excuse the hostility I seem to be showing. I have a reason behind it, but it sounds like sci-fi bull even to me.
Eldren 02-17-04, 01:51 AM	No worries, Nestro. I'm not perceiving any hostility. As far as I'm aware, no one has hacked Skip's e-mail address. If you'd like an authenticity check, I'd be more than happy to provide you with one; PM me and provide an e-mail address, and I'll happily forward you the e-mail I received from tsrsage@aol.com Unless Skip has changed his e-mail address and not notified anyone (and I have a feeling he probably doesn't use that address beyond people asking for rules clarifications), I'm reasonably sure it's accurate. I can quote you this from the 3.5 Player's Handbook, on page 178, under the "Rest" header, in the latter part of the paragraph: "If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells. For example, elf Wizards need 8 hours of rest to clear their minds, even though they need only 4 hours of trance to refresh their bodies." So this clears up one thing I brought up earlier in this thread: Elves apparently do not require mental rest from their trance, only physical refreshment. The rules, as written, have chosen to ignore the necessity of mental refreshment for characters, at least as far as elves go. Non-spellcasting elves can go through their centuries-long life quite happily with never having mental refreshment, apparently, or at least they only acquire 4 hours of mental refreshment, whereas spellcasting requires 8 hours of mental refreshment, at least for arcane casters (divine casters don't require rest). However, humans require 8 hours of sleep each night for both physical refreshment and mental refreshment. At the end of this period of sleep, they may prepare arcane spells. You indicated that your personal perspective on the Ring of Sustenance and arcane casters (a perspective shared by Skip Williams, for what it's worth) was reached through applying "common sense". I do the same. Common sense indicates that if humans require 8 hours of sleep, and arcane spellcasters require 8 hours of rest before they can prepare their spells, and humans can prepare their spells after 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep, then 8 hours of sleep provides 8 hours of rest. The Ring of Sustenance indicates the wearer receives the benefits of 8 hours of sleep from only 2 hours of actual sleep. With the above logic, 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep more often than not equals 8 hours of rest. 8 hours of rest allows for arcane preparation. Thus, if the Ring provides the benefit of 8 hours of sleep, and 8 hours of sleep results in 8 hours of rest, then the Ring can provide the equivalent of 8 hours of rest to the wearer. This is humans, who require 8 hours of rest for everything and elves, who only require 4 hours of rest for everything except arcane preparation. This is perfectly logical to me, which is why I stand by my houserule. :)
Hypersmurf 02-17-04, 03:25 AM	Originally posted by Eldren The wording of the Ring of Sustenance (and keep in mind that it did not indicate its restorative effects were identical or even similar to elven trance)... So the effects of the ring that provides the benefits of eight hours' sleep are not identical or even similar to the effects of the trance that provides the benefits of eight hours' sleep? If I tell you that Adam looks just like Carl, and I tell you that Bob looks just like Carl, can one not infer that Adam looks just like Bob? I do the same. Common sense indicates that if humans require 8 hours of sleep, and arcane spellcasters require 8 hours of rest before they can prepare their spells, and humans can prepare their spells after 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep, then 8 hours of sleep provides 8 hours of rest. Except the human is resting and sleeping at the same time. It's not the sleep that provides the rest; it's the fact that while he's sleeping, he's not doing anything vigorous for eight hours. If he uses the ring for two hours, he gains the benefit of eight hours' sleep... but he's only spent two hours not doing anything vigorous. Rest isn't an effect of sleep; it's something that can be done while sleeping. I have two eight gallon jugs, and a green tap, and a blue tap. When I open each tap, green or blue water trickles out at a rate of one gallon per hour. So, I can hold one jug in each hand, and in eight hours, both jugs will be full. But there's a special lever on the blue tap, that makes it trickle four times as fast. So if the lever is pulled, I can hold one jug in each hand... and in two hours, the blue jug will be full. But there will only be two gallons in the green jug. The green jug fills while I'm standing under the taps doing nothing else... but its rate is unaffected by the rate of the blue tap. -Hyp.
Hot Rod 02-17-04, 03:31 AM	Originally posted by Eldren <snip> Skip's Response: Sorcerers and bard gets spells once a day, period. So on planes where day/night is irrelevant Skip says mages don't get spells? Right... What about the underdark? Moving dawnward, do I get my spells an hour earlier (for each 24th circumference I travel/teleport)? Arcane magic is supposed to be independent of local forces(nature), deities, etc. IMC if the party is willing to stop for 9 hours mid-day (8 rest, 1 study) to let the wiz re-memorize thats fine (I won't make it easy for them, but they can choose to do it). If they intended it to work like clerics they should have said that instead. adiaven: Guess you've never worked shift work eh? A day fo me can be 6,8, or 12 hours long and often starts sometime between noon and midnight. You never did address the situation where the word day is irrelevant (astral, limbo) (Nor does Skip :rolleyes: ) To keep at least 1 line OT, I still require arcane casters to rest 8 hrs prior to prep with the ring. (Although they can keep an eye on the camp when 'resting')
NestroEmichae 02-17-04, 01:30 PM	Eldren- Actually, you are mostly correct. At least, for our world. In our world, the RoS would probably have that effect. You must merely adjust your logic. It's difficult, but can be done. Also, there is the question of rest = sleep, which I acknowledge as only partially answered. Still, a partial answer is better than none. The e-mail address is enough. I shall get those sources and if they do not match a couple of people shall pay. Hot Rod- I use this house rule: If time passes, the body uses an internal 24-hour clock. That's how I solved it.
adiaven 02-17-04, 02:58 PM	Hot Rod, I have worked shifts, and I am pretty sure I didn't age faster or slower than everyone else. Yes, I observed the same number of days as everyone else, even though my day started at a different time.... It sounds like you are saying, if you sleep twice a day, 2 days just passed for you. See how this defies logic? A DM should set what length a day is at the begining of a campaign, and that is exactly how often any caster can get new spell slots. Most DMs pick 24 hours just to keep it simple. As for Astral plane or limbo, well time still passes there, right*? When a normal day for the mortal passes, that is when the spell caster regains new spell slots. In your campaign, can a cleric not regain her spells on a different plane, since there is no morning, noon or night?? I don't know why you people insist a wizard regains spells via rest. Nowhere in the PHB does it say that. A wizard regains spells just like every other class, when day passes. * if time does not pass on a plane, then everything in history and the future happens at once. Not a very fun way to play a RPG, huh?
NestroEmichae 02-17-04, 04:10 PM	Adiaven- Page 178 of the 3.5 PHB, heading of Rest. Read it.
Lord Psynister 02-17-04, 05:13 PM	I think this is one of those cases where you need to look at just how powerful it could be if you rule one way or the other. The only thing stopping wizards from ruling everything in the world is that they run out of spells. If I want to: 1) teleport into the middle of a town, 2) shoot a few Fireballs off in every direction, 3) teleport away, 4) go to sleep for a couple of hours (with the ring on), 5) teleport to another part of the town and do it again, 6) continue until the town is destroyed Then I can more of less destroy the entire population of any city in 1-3 days with little or no problem at all. Using it the way you're talking about isn't that big of a deal if we're just talking about low levels, but when you get into higher levels, it becomes rather easily broken. No sure there can be other high level spell casters in those towns to fight you and stop you from doing it, but if you're going to give them back all of their spells in only 2 hours, then you beter plan on either 1) not allowing groups of spellcasters to get together and form groups of Town Slaying™, or 2) have every town run/protected by casters, or 3) realize that it's just not going to work and give up on the idea. That's how I see it, anyway.
NestroEmichae 02-17-04, 05:17 PM	Psynister, you forgot one: 4) Have a deity become annoyed because his temple was fireballed and kill the offending mage.
adiaven 02-17-04, 07:30 PM	Originally posted by NestroEmichae Adiaven- Page 178 of the 3.5 PHB, heading of Rest. Read it. Done. Doesn't say anything about regaining spell slots. Rest allows a wizard to prepare her daily spells. It does not give her new daily spells. Read on the same page, Spell Slots.(or my post earlier in this thread) The various character class tables in Chapter 3: Classes show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day It can not be any clearer than that.
Eldren 02-17-04, 08:38 PM	The thing I'm noticing keeps coming up in these Ring of Sustenance discussions is the snag on the words "rest" and "sleep". As someone noted, you can rest while you sleep, but the reality is also that sleep does facilitate rest, i.e., unless there's something unusual going on, you're getting rest from sleeping. Don't believe me? Stay up for 24 hours, and spend 16 of those hours doing something reasonably "active", and spend the other 8 "resting", but not sleeping. Come the next day, you're going to be dog-tired, if you managed to stay awake at all. Now look at a more normative schedule, where most people are active for 16 hours a day, and then sleep for 8 hours a day. They're resting while they're sleeping, as noted. However, the next day, they're more mentally acute, have better reflexes, and are more aware of their surroundings and how to properly interact with them because their mind received the refreshment from sleep. What it boils down to is that "restful" activity, or "resting", refreshes the body, but sleep refreshes the mind. Elves require 4 hours to operate normally, equivalent to a human with 8 hours of sleep, but elves require an additional 4 hours of restful activity in order to be able to prepare arcane spells. Humans can do it after their normal sleep cycle. There are too many dichotomies for me to personally be comfortable with this. On top of that, ultimately I like magic to be, well, magical. Root too much of it in real-world physics, and it starts to become science. If I wanted science, I'd go play Star Wars or some third-party d20 publisher's sci-fi RPG. I want magic, and a Ring of Sustenance becomes much more magical if it enables someone to receive the rest from 2 hours of sleep that they'd normally receive from 8 hours of sleep. After all, why do we sleep, if not to gain rest of both body and mind?
Hypersmurf 02-17-04, 08:51 PM	Originally posted by Eldren I want magic, and a Ring of Sustenance becomes much more magical if it enables someone to receive the rest from 2 hours of sleep that they'd normally receive from 8 hours of sleep. Whereas what it provides as written is the benefit of 8 hours of sleep... and we know (since trance provides the benefit of 8 hours of sleep, and that benefit does not include the ability to prepare arcane spells) that that benefit does not include the ability to prepare arcane spells. Just house rule the Ring of Sustenance in your campaign to provide the benefit of eight hours of sleep and eight hours of rest, and you've got what you want. Alternatively, house rule that the benefit of eight hours of sleep includes the benefit of eight hours of rest, and let elves prepare their arcane spells after four hours of trance. -Hyp.
DudeMan101 02-17-04, 10:05 PM	You could aslo decide that in your campaign, the Ring of Substanence was created by an inovative human wizard-college student who was jelous of his elven peers' ability to regain spells more quickly. So then he made a ring that lets him rest completly in only 2 hours, half-that of the elves, just to be spiteful. Makes sense to me.
NestroEmichae 02-18-04, 12:55 AM	Originally posted by adiaven Done. Doesn't say anything about regaining spell slots. Rest allows a wizard to prepare her daily spells. It does not give her new daily spells. Read on the same page, Spell Slots.(or my post earlier in this thread) Actually, the spell slots portion is irrelevant. "Day" can be defined in too many billions of ways to be useful as a determinant. "Spells per day" doesn't help if your DM has decided that a new day comes immediately after 8 hours of rest (meaning you could have two or more days before the sun rises again). Plus, the rest is what allows you to fill the spell slots. It is whether or not you can prepare spells that determines if you can cast them. Rest may not directly grant you the spells you use, but it does determine if you can fill the slots.
twentythree 02-18-04, 01:10 AM	Don't believe me? Stay up for 24 hours, and spend 16 of those hours doing something reasonably "active", and spend the other 8 "resting", but not sleeping. Come the next day, you're going to be dog-tired, if you managed to stay awake at all. That is called fatigue. Have you read the rules about sleeping and fatigue? You should consider it. Also, now try this with a magic ring that makes you only have to sleep 4 hours... oh wait, we aren't talking about the real world... that's riiiight.... --Brien
NestroEmichae 02-18-04, 01:22 AM	Stay up for 24 hours, and spend 16 of those hours doing something reasonably "active", and spend the other 8 "resting", but not sleeping. Come the next day, you're going to be dog-tired, if you managed to stay awake at all. Actually, I do that. My natural sleep cycle is extreme nocturnal while my life is diurnal. I've gotten maybe 16 hours of sleep this month, and that is unusually high for this point. After awhile, you learn how to stay awake and yet rest at the same time.
Eldren 02-18-04, 01:58 AM	I'm the same way, Nestro. I have to force myself to go to sleep at night and force myself (through an alarm clock and sheer force of will) to rise in the morning to go to work. Naturally, my body tends to want to go to bed about 4:00 in the morning, and rise usually about noon to 1:00 in the afternoon. This Monday was a holiday, and I did just that: My campaign ended at about midnight, and I drove home and stayed up til about 3:30 in the morning. I went to bed, and got up about 12:30 in the afternoon. Thing about it is, I've discovered that at the "tender" age of 30 (nearly 31), I usually require at least 6 hours of sleep a night, and even then I'm usually only good for about 8 hours of work during the day. If I want to do more work (i.e, stay at work for 9 or 10 hours), I require usually 8 hours of sleep. I try to catch up on weekends when I can, but often only get about an extra hour of sleep in the morning, as I help clean at my church on Saturday mornings, and I go to church on Sunday mornings. Thankfully, I'm only scheduled for cleaning every other week, so I often get at least one day to sleep in without an alarm clock each week; if that isn't Saturday, I sleep in on Sunday morning and go to an evening service. :) I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the Ring of Sustenance. Skip Williams has given a ruling, and that's official enough for me. I'm content to call my own interpretation of things a "house rule" and leave it at that.