Abrupt Jaunt Immediate Magic. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Abrupt Jaunt Immediate Magic. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Feather
07-13-07, 08:52 AM Our roleplaying group has started to surge into playing Conjurors since master specialist and the Immediate magic system in PHB2, p69. We've had a lot of worrying questions pop up as a result of Abrupt Jaunt as an immediate action.

As we understand it, a character can use abrupt jaunt to escape the charge of a fighter, just as long as they are aware of the charge. Can they abrupt jaunt out of the way of a ray, as long as they can see the ray coming towards them? Are we missing something here? Can they jaunt out of the way of a line effect? Can they use this immediate action to escape a melee character's full attack?

If the answers are indeed yes, does anyone see this special ability as too good to be true? I know there's a limit of how many times it can be used, but geez.

If we are reading this right, is there any other groups out there that have had to make new rules to deal with this ability? We're playing with the idea of making this particular immediate magic ability a swift action instead.
Sagittarius_Rex
07-13-07, 09:45 AM IMHO, abrupt jaunt would not get you out of the way of a ray if it is already pointed at you. Think of it this way. If you are standing in a darkened room, and you see someone pointing a flashlight (AKA Wand of Light) in your direction; you might duck before they turn it on. But if you didn't see the flashlight (or make a successful spellcraft check to discern what they were casting); the effect is (literally) at the speed of light.
Now not all rays are that fast. Some allow for Reflex Saves; and that's where your abrupt jaunt would come in. If you made your Reflex Save; I would say you recognized the spell as a ray attack (just as if you'd done your spellcraft check, which, IIRC, do not have to be done during your round) and abruptly jaunt out of the ray's path before it reaches your square.
Abrupt jaunt is primarily for evading melee attacks that you are aware of. But remember; it is only available a limited number of times per day!
tarkin
07-13-07, 11:22 AM Saggitarius gave a very good argument, for what is basically part of the rules that are left unanswered.

I would go with what he said. Reflex saves seems to imply at least SOME chance of dodging, which should give you time to do an Abript Jaunt.
redscizor
07-13-07, 11:30 AM but if the velocity of attack have velocity of ligth, no exist creature what can have dex in AC bonus, then all ray touch are flat flood

or all awake our 7to sense (Saint seiya)

then i think the attacks in D&D are very slows XDD
Lucas Blackstone
07-13-07, 12:11 PM Abrupt Jaunt should work on any attack that your character is aware of. Rays, melee attacks, ranged attacks,touch attacks, all of them require a to hit roll, and all of the respective AC's used to defend against them include the dexterity bonus to AC, therefore implying that the target's ability to use his speed to move about matters. Heck, it should also work against are effect spells if you can guess where the area is and can remove yourself from it.

An example of this would be an enemy kobold sorcerer casts lightning bolt, you make a spellcraft check and know what he is casting. Your group is set up in a corridor or has just burst into his main chamber, leaving you all to be in a line effect. *Poof*, you jaunt away, even 10 feet up would do it if the roof permitted. Lightning bolt hits the rest of the party. Next round you make your jump check to reduce the falling damage by 10 feet, and cast a spell of your own back at said caster.

Physics and D&D don't mix and starting to worry about the speed of light and such isn't what the game is about. For instance, arrows shot ( even without magic) at extreme ranges would begin to create sonic booms if we paid attention to normal laws of science.

RAW, and in flavor with the ability, the jaunt is immediate so you can interrupt the action on other's turns and avoid such things.
Pentar
07-13-07, 12:23 PM The way we're playing it is that you have to resolve if you're going to do an Abrupt Jaunt before attack rolls are confirmed. I don't know if this is correct, but it seems fair. Therefore, ranged attacks are much more difficult to avoid unless you can Jaunt behind cover.

Basically, the only way to avoid a Ray attack would be if you're already at maximum range and you jaunt just outside of the ray's reach. Then it would end before it reached you. However, let's say you're taking archer fire. You jaunt as the Archer shoots - but the archer hasn't rolled his attack yet. He adjusts his aim to your new location and fires... so really there's no point.

As for jumping out of AOE effects - we haven't run into that yet, but it may be worth some consideration.
Sagittarius_Rex
07-13-07, 05:54 PM Abrupt Jaunt should work on any attack that your character is aware of. Rays, melee attacks, ranged attacks,touch attacks, all of them require a to hit roll, and all of the respective AC's used to defend against them include the dexterity bonus to AC, therefore implying that the target's ability to use his speed to move about matters. Heck, it should also work against are effect spells if you can guess where the area is and can remove yourself from it.

An example of this would be an enemy kobold sorcerer casts lightning bolt, you make a spellcraft check and know what he is casting. Your group is set up in a corridor or has just burst into his main chamber, leaving you all to be in a line effect. *Poof*, you jaunt away, even 10 feet up would do it if the roof permitted. Lightning bolt hits the rest of the party. Next round you make your jump check to reduce the falling damage by 10 feet, and cast a spell of your own back at said caster.

Physics and D&D don't mix and starting to worry about the speed of light and such isn't what the game is about. For instance, arrows shot ( even without magic) at extreme ranges would begin to create sonic booms if we paid attention to normal laws of science.

RAW, and in flavor with the ability, the jaunt is immediate so you can interrupt the action on other's turns and avoid such things.

1: Not all attacks require a hit roll; Magic Missile comes to mind; and it should curve it's flight to hit you at your new location.
2: If the area effect is a quarter-circle; depending on how deep one is in that area- 10 feet (excepting straight up as in your example) may be a moot movement.
3: They won't need to use jump skill to avoid damage, since the first ten feet doesn't do damage (IIRC).
4: I wasn't talking physics- I was giving an easily understood example. A parable if you will. But like all parables it comes apart if you try and take it too literallly.
5: if you want flavor; try this: allow the enemy to achieve ranged flanking then jaunt!
Sagittarius_Rex
07-13-07, 06:00 PM The way we're playing it is that you have to resolve if you're going to do an Abrupt Jaunt before attack rolls are confirmed. I don't know if this is correct, but it seems fair. Therefore, ranged attacks are much more difficult to avoid unless you can Jaunt behind cover.

Basically, the only way to avoid a Ray attack would be if you're already at maximum range and you jaunt just outside of the ray's reach. Then it would end before it reached you. However, let's say you're taking archer fire. You jaunt as the Archer shoots - but the archer hasn't rolled his attack yet. He adjusts his aim to your new location and fires... so really there's no point.

As for jumping out of AOE effects - we haven't run into that yet, but it may be worth some consideration.

Not quite... if you jaunt just as the archer shoots- his first arrow goes to the point in space where you just were. That way the archer doesn't have to waste what might have been his only "20" of the night on empty air.

The only way he'd be able to correct his aim is if he got two (or more) attacks per round. Then his second (and more any that followed) shot would be rolled against the target in their new position.

And if their jaunt happened to land behind cover or with a "friendly" target interposed between the archer may (in disgust) be forced to choose a different target.
Feather
07-25-07, 12:04 PM Well, yeah, as written, the Jaunter can immediately ten foot jump in response to anything they're aware of, making archers/full attacking melee characters even more worthless against spellcasters. I don't really like this at all, and I don't think that ability, as written, is equal to the loss of a familiar, no matter how cleverly you use your familiar as a scout/spellcaster. With master specialist, it's not like wizards lose out as much as they did for losing schools of magic (I know this logic sucks, for effectiveness's sake, specialists are now herded into this PRC) Wizards already have a plethora of tricks to stump melee characters that may luckily find themselves within 5ft of a relatively unprotected mage. Why give them another that is so good? Lucas and Rex both make the point about being aware of the attacks, therefore letting the conjuror use this ability for A LOT of attacks, which I'm not keen on.

What issues do you guys see with house-ruling this ability a swift action instead of a immediate action?
Pentar
07-25-07, 03:37 PM Well, yeah, as written, the Jaunter can immediately ten foot jump in response to anything they're aware of, making archers/full attacking melee characters even more worthless against spellcasters. I don't really like this at all, and I don't think that ability, as written, is equal to the loss of a familiar, no matter how cleverly you use your familiar as a scout/spellcaster. With master specialist, it's not like wizards lose out as much as they did for losing schools of magic (I know this logic sucks, for effectiveness's sake, specialists are now herded into this PRC) Wizards already have a plethora of tricks to stump melee characters that may luckily find themselves within 5ft of a relatively unprotected mage. Why give them another that is so good? Lucas and Rex both make the point about being aware of the attacks, therefore letting the conjuror use this ability for A LOT of attacks, which I'm not keen on.

What issues do you guys see with house-ruling this ability a swift action instead of a immediate action?

Yes, it makes Abrupt Jaunt almost entirely worthless, except that it gives you an extra 10' of movement per turn. The difference between Swift and Immediate is astronomical.

A better house rule would be to say that the Jaunter must elect to Jaunt before the attack roll is made. He cannot decide after the roll. For example, valid uses of Abrupt Jaunt would be:

Warrior turns to the Wizard and prepared to make a full-round of attacks. Wizard declares he is jaunting. The Warrior moves 10' to close on the Wizard again and makes a single attack.

Archer declares rapid shooting a Wizard. Wizard decides to jaunt 10' behind 1/2 cover. The Archer adjusts his shot but takes the cover penalties.

Invalid uses would be:
Warrior charges Wizard. Wizard waits until Warrior is moving, and makes an attack roll then jaunts. Warrior wastes his action and "charges" at nothing.

Archer declares Manyshot on a Wizard. Wizard waits until the attack rolls are made and then determines to jaunt while the arrows are in the air. The archer's shot (regardless of the to-hit roll) miss.

Basically, you can only jaunt before a roll determination. You cannot wait for the roll, see if it will hit/miss/crit and then decide.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Feather 07-13-07, 08:52 AM	Our roleplaying group has started to surge into playing Conjurors since master specialist and the Immediate magic system in PHB2, p69. We've had a lot of worrying questions pop up as a result of Abrupt Jaunt as an immediate action. As we understand it, a character can use abrupt jaunt to escape the charge of a fighter, just as long as they are aware of the charge. Can they abrupt jaunt out of the way of a ray, as long as they can see the ray coming towards them? Are we missing something here? Can they jaunt out of the way of a line effect? Can they use this immediate action to escape a melee character's full attack? If the answers are indeed yes, does anyone see this special ability as too good to be true? I know there's a limit of how many times it can be used, but geez. If we are reading this right, is there any other groups out there that have had to make new rules to deal with this ability? We're playing with the idea of making this particular immediate magic ability a swift action instead.
Sagittarius_Rex 07-13-07, 09:45 AM	IMHO, abrupt jaunt would not get you out of the way of a ray if it is already pointed at you. Think of it this way. If you are standing in a darkened room, and you see someone pointing a flashlight (AKA Wand of Light) in your direction; you might duck before they turn it on. But if you didn't see the flashlight (or make a successful spellcraft check to discern what they were casting); the effect is (literally) at the speed of light. Now not all rays are that fast. Some allow for Reflex Saves; and that's where your abrupt jaunt would come in. If you made your Reflex Save; I would say you recognized the spell as a ray attack (just as if you'd done your spellcraft check, which, IIRC, do not have to be done during your round) and abruptly jaunt out of the ray's path before it reaches your square. Abrupt jaunt is primarily for evading melee attacks that you are aware of. But remember; it is only available a limited number of times per day!
tarkin 07-13-07, 11:22 AM	Saggitarius gave a very good argument, for what is basically part of the rules that are left unanswered. I would go with what he said. Reflex saves seems to imply at least SOME chance of dodging, which should give you time to do an Abript Jaunt.
redscizor 07-13-07, 11:30 AM	but if the velocity of attack have velocity of ligth, no exist creature what can have dex in AC bonus, then all ray touch are flat flood or all awake our 7to sense (Saint seiya) then i think the attacks in D&D are very slows XDD
Lucas Blackstone 07-13-07, 12:11 PM	Abrupt Jaunt should work on any attack that your character is aware of. Rays, melee attacks, ranged attacks,touch attacks, all of them require a to hit roll, and all of the respective AC's used to defend against them include the dexterity bonus to AC, therefore implying that the target's ability to use his speed to move about matters. Heck, it should also work against are effect spells if you can guess where the area is and can remove yourself from it. An example of this would be an enemy kobold sorcerer casts lightning bolt, you make a spellcraft check and know what he is casting. Your group is set up in a corridor or has just burst into his main chamber, leaving you all to be in a line effect. Poof, you jaunt away, even 10 feet up would do it if the roof permitted. Lightning bolt hits the rest of the party. Next round you make your jump check to reduce the falling damage by 10 feet, and cast a spell of your own back at said caster. Physics and D&D don't mix and starting to worry about the speed of light and such isn't what the game is about. For instance, arrows shot ( even without magic) at extreme ranges would begin to create sonic booms if we paid attention to normal laws of science. RAW, and in flavor with the ability, the jaunt is immediate so you can interrupt the action on other's turns and avoid such things.
Pentar 07-13-07, 12:23 PM	The way we're playing it is that you have to resolve if you're going to do an Abrupt Jaunt before attack rolls are confirmed. I don't know if this is correct, but it seems fair. Therefore, ranged attacks are much more difficult to avoid unless you can Jaunt behind cover. Basically, the only way to avoid a Ray attack would be if you're already at maximum range and you jaunt just outside of the ray's reach. Then it would end before it reached you. However, let's say you're taking archer fire. You jaunt as the Archer shoots - but the archer hasn't rolled his attack yet. He adjusts his aim to your new location and fires... so really there's no point. As for jumping out of AOE effects - we haven't run into that yet, but it may be worth some consideration.
Sagittarius_Rex 07-13-07, 05:54 PM	Abrupt Jaunt should work on any attack that your character is aware of. Rays, melee attacks, ranged attacks,touch attacks, all of them require a to hit roll, and all of the respective AC's used to defend against them include the dexterity bonus to AC, therefore implying that the target's ability to use his speed to move about matters. Heck, it should also work against are effect spells if you can guess where the area is and can remove yourself from it. An example of this would be an enemy kobold sorcerer casts lightning bolt, you make a spellcraft check and know what he is casting. Your group is set up in a corridor or has just burst into his main chamber, leaving you all to be in a line effect. Poof, you jaunt away, even 10 feet up would do it if the roof permitted. Lightning bolt hits the rest of the party. Next round you make your jump check to reduce the falling damage by 10 feet, and cast a spell of your own back at said caster. Physics and D&D don't mix and starting to worry about the speed of light and such isn't what the game is about. For instance, arrows shot ( even without magic) at extreme ranges would begin to create sonic booms if we paid attention to normal laws of science. RAW, and in flavor with the ability, the jaunt is immediate so you can interrupt the action on other's turns and avoid such things. 1: Not all attacks require a hit roll; Magic Missile comes to mind; and it should curve it's flight to hit you at your new location. 2: If the area effect is a quarter-circle; depending on how deep one is in that area- 10 feet (excepting straight up as in your example) may be a moot movement. 3: They won't need to use jump skill to avoid damage, since the first ten feet doesn't do damage (IIRC). 4: I wasn't talking physics- I was giving an easily understood example. A parable if you will. But like all parables it comes apart if you try and take it too literallly. 5: if you want flavor; try this: allow the enemy to achieve ranged flanking then jaunt!
Sagittarius_Rex 07-13-07, 06:00 PM	The way we're playing it is that you have to resolve if you're going to do an Abrupt Jaunt before attack rolls are confirmed. I don't know if this is correct, but it seems fair. Therefore, ranged attacks are much more difficult to avoid unless you can Jaunt behind cover. Basically, the only way to avoid a Ray attack would be if you're already at maximum range and you jaunt just outside of the ray's reach. Then it would end before it reached you. However, let's say you're taking archer fire. You jaunt as the Archer shoots - but the archer hasn't rolled his attack yet. He adjusts his aim to your new location and fires... so really there's no point. As for jumping out of AOE effects - we haven't run into that yet, but it may be worth some consideration. Not quite... if you jaunt just as the archer shoots- his first arrow goes to the point in space where you just were. That way the archer doesn't have to waste what might have been his only "20" of the night on empty air. The only way he'd be able to correct his aim is if he got two (or more) attacks per round. Then his second (and more any that followed) shot would be rolled against the target in their new position. And if their jaunt happened to land behind cover or with a "friendly" target interposed between the archer may (in disgust) be forced to choose a different target.
Feather 07-25-07, 12:04 PM	Well, yeah, as written, the Jaunter can immediately ten foot jump in response to anything they're aware of, making archers/full attacking melee characters even more worthless against spellcasters. I don't really like this at all, and I don't think that ability, as written, is equal to the loss of a familiar, no matter how cleverly you use your familiar as a scout/spellcaster. With master specialist, it's not like wizards lose out as much as they did for losing schools of magic (I know this logic sucks, for effectiveness's sake, specialists are now herded into this PRC) Wizards already have a plethora of tricks to stump melee characters that may luckily find themselves within 5ft of a relatively unprotected mage. Why give them another that is so good? Lucas and Rex both make the point about being aware of the attacks, therefore letting the conjuror use this ability for A LOT of attacks, which I'm not keen on. What issues do you guys see with house-ruling this ability a swift action instead of a immediate action?
Pentar 07-25-07, 03:37 PM	Well, yeah, as written, the Jaunter can immediately ten foot jump in response to anything they're aware of, making archers/full attacking melee characters even more worthless against spellcasters. I don't really like this at all, and I don't think that ability, as written, is equal to the loss of a familiar, no matter how cleverly you use your familiar as a scout/spellcaster. With master specialist, it's not like wizards lose out as much as they did for losing schools of magic (I know this logic sucks, for effectiveness's sake, specialists are now herded into this PRC) Wizards already have a plethora of tricks to stump melee characters that may luckily find themselves within 5ft of a relatively unprotected mage. Why give them another that is so good? Lucas and Rex both make the point about being aware of the attacks, therefore letting the conjuror use this ability for A LOT of attacks, which I'm not keen on. What issues do you guys see with house-ruling this ability a swift action instead of a immediate action? Yes, it makes Abrupt Jaunt almost entirely worthless, except that it gives you an extra 10' of movement per turn. The difference between Swift and Immediate is astronomical. A better house rule would be to say that the Jaunter must elect to Jaunt before the attack roll is made. He cannot decide after the roll. For example, valid uses of Abrupt Jaunt would be: Warrior turns to the Wizard and prepared to make a full-round of attacks. Wizard declares he is jaunting. The Warrior moves 10' to close on the Wizard again and makes a single attack. Archer declares rapid shooting a Wizard. Wizard decides to jaunt 10' behind 1/2 cover. The Archer adjusts his shot but takes the cover penalties. Invalid uses would be: Warrior charges Wizard. Wizard waits until Warrior is moving, and makes an attack roll then jaunts. Warrior wastes his action and "charges" at nothing. Archer declares Manyshot on a Wizard. Wizard waits until the attack rolls are made and then determines to jaunt while the arrows are in the air. The archer's shot (regardless of the to-hit roll) miss. Basically, you can only jaunt before a roll determination. You cannot wait for the roll, see if it will hit/miss/crit and then decide.