Post/Author/DateTime	Post
iN.fuSioN 06-21-04, 11:21 AM	Very well... The Shadow Conjuration spells and Shades are illusion(shadow) spells, and therefore only partialy real. If you use one of them to mimic a Summon Monster spell, you aren't really summoning a creature but waving shadows to produce an illusory effect that is part real. What happens then if you use shades to mimic a summon monster VIII and then give it an item? I'm inclined to believe that since the "summon" can produce real effects it can use them item. But when the duration of the spell expires, does the item you gave the creature goes away with it or it drops to the ground when the shadow-like forces dissipate? The answer to this question i think is that the item drops to the ground. If that is true, you could open the abuse on the Summon Dragon Ally (wiz7), since it behaves quite like a conjuration(calling) spell, except it is a (summoning) one. Therefore it qualifies for shades. One of the greatest drawbacks of the spell (Dragon Ally) is the fact that you need to pay the creature. You could then reward the dragon with a useful item and then when the duration expires the item drops to the ground since the Dragon never existed in the 1st place. Is this possible? If not, why? PS: Dragon Ally is a 7th level wizard/sorcerer spell from Draconomicon.
tarkin 06-21-04, 11:43 AM	There is a difference between using an item and paying a creature an item. I would have the dragon accept the payment, then cast a spell to send it back to his home on the plane of Shadow.
Nimrud 06-21-04, 12:06 PM	If you are trying to mimic the spell using Shades, why would you even need to give the 'shadow' dragon anything? You don't need to duplicate the material component of the real spell when you cast Shades.
Edward 06-21-04, 05:22 PM	Tarkin. The shadow dragon did not exist before the casting and will not exist when the duration expires. It as no home on the plane of shadow. Considering shades dose not require any material component for a spell it duplicates it could well work. Ofcause I don’t hav the description of Summon Dragon Ally but I am confident of how the shadow spells work. Edward
Elhalyn 06-22-04, 12:28 AM	Thtas one of the Shadow Spells abuses. Snow Savant (IIRC) pointed it in the CO boards once. As if that wasn't enough, you won't need to pay XP costs to the spell, and he will remain as much as you desire (he is your illusion). Of course that no sane Dm would allow it: The simple solution is to treat the spell as an conjuration (calling) spell.
Nimrud 06-22-04, 03:38 AM	Those interacting with the shade get a Will save to disbelieve. The spell effect is subject to SR even if the original spell does not allow for SR. A simple true seeing and your illusion is gone. That's why it is not broken and doesn't need a nerf.
iN.fuSioN 06-22-04, 08:12 AM	Originally posted by Nimrud Those interacting with the shade get a Will save to disbelieve. The spell effect is subject to SR even if the original spell does not allow for SR. A simple true seeing and your illusion is gone. That's why it is not broken and doesn't need a nerf. Sorry but Shades is a Illusion (Shadow) spell. It is part real, as some of it shaped from the plane of shadows. In the Shades specific case, it is 80% real, so you may recognize it as illusory, but it still hurts... a lot ;D
dantedarkstar 06-22-04, 09:56 AM	But there is still SR against Shades, etc. There is SR to attack by shadow conjured creature. But yes, even on True Seeing or when succesfully disbelieved, they are 80% real. And 80% damage is still QUITE good. But that SR...
Nimrud 06-22-04, 10:21 AM	80% AC, 80% hp, dragon fear and other special abilities that do not cause direct damage are only 80% likely to work. For a 9th level spell, duplicating up to 8th level spells of a certain school at 80% efficacy sounds about OK. It's very very good for a sorceror, because of the versatility it gives, but for a wizard, it's not overpowering, compared to some other 9th level spells.
tarkin 06-22-04, 10:51 AM	To Edward, while I respect your diligence, you are making some wrong conclusions. You use material from the Plane of Shadow to shape quasi-real illusions of one or more creatures, objects, or forces. That means that the creature is real and does have a home, the plane of Shadow. Yes, it did not exist before you cast the spell, (I did not exist before my mom and dad ... well you know.) As for not existing after the spell, the spell does not say that at all. It is quite reasonable to believe that when the spell ends, the creature goes back to the plane of Shadow where his material came from, without dissableming himself. And as I stated earlier, There is a difference between using an item and paying a creature an item If the spell Dragon Ally describes the cost as a "Material Componenet" and that is all, then Shades can cheat it. But if the spell describes the Dragon as dealing with you and deciding what he wants, than that part of the spell continues to work, and the 80% real Dragon has the right to do whatever he wants with your payment. The question is would he send it to the plane of Shadow? As he is a shadow DRAGON, not a shadow kobold, if he has the right spell, he should certainly send the item back to the Plane of Shadow. When you make a shadow Dragon you get both the good (strength, power etc.), and the bad (Greed, cunning, resentment for having a short life). I stand by my original opinion. The shadow Dragon you create will, if it is draconically possible, demand the "payment" and send it the plane of Shadow. Or better yet, the Dragon, knowing he is a short lived creation, is going to insist on an immediate gratification payment. I.E. He will refuse gold, gems, whatever and insist on food, sex, drugs, a wish spell to make him perament, etc. etc. etc. etc. ------------------------- This is not the same as Leomunds Chest spell. The spell Shades clearly allows you to use a Leomund's Chest spell without paying the high material cost.
Nimrud 06-22-04, 11:03 AM	Would it accept a quasi-real payment? :D
chonjurer 06-22-04, 06:26 PM	You use material from the Plane of Shadow to shape quasi-real illusions of one or more creatures, objects, or forces. (emphasis mine) You are creating illusions of the things, not the actual things themselves. You are not creating a dragon. You are creating a quasi-real ILLUSION of one. And when the spell ends, the illusion disappears. (i.e. ceases to exist)
Snow Savant 06-22-04, 11:17 PM	Originally posted by chonjurer You are creating illusions of the things, not the actual things themselves. You are not creating a dragon. You are creating a quasi-real ILLUSION of one. And when the spell ends, the illusion disappears. (i.e. ceases to exist) To expound on this further, I posit that you can actually "blackmail" the shadowy/illusion dragon (Shades emulating Summon Dragon Ally) into serving you forever ... for NO COST WHATSOEVER. Per the bargaining process of the Summon Dragon Ally, you basically state to the illusionary dragon that if you voluntarily end the bargaining process with no offer even tendered, Mr. Dragon will suddenly cease to exist. In essence ... the illusionary dragon will *DIE*. Since the illusionary dragon for all intents and purposes has the same psychological and behavioral make-up as a real dragon, he will definitely note your superior position in the bargaining process ... as well as having the real-life feelings of not wanting to die. After all, how many dragons are suicidal? Very very few. They want to live, as every intelligent being wants to. This is where you, the caster, can offer the shadowy/illusionary dragon a chance to stay alive. By serving you the caster, FOREVER, as a faithful and loyal cohort who must obey you at all times. Because you are a kind spellcaster, you even offer to give the illusionary dragon small tokens of appreciation via treasure, gold, and whatnot. You promise to treat him respectfully and with dignity. And if you do this while Shades/Summoning a good dragon (brass, silver, etc.) and if you yourself have a good alignment ... you should have an agreement that works out just fine. Yes, your shadowy dragon may get dispelled at a later date. But until then, if the dragon wants to live, he will abide by your wishes. Shade/Summon Dragon Ally .... the combo makes total sense. It will allow you to build an enormous army of dragons, at no cost to you whatsoever. Heck, instead of normal colored dragons, you could ask for a 16th level Kapak Draconian Sorceror (from Dragonlance book) with this spell combo. Netting you a high level Sorceror cohort who is officially a "Dragon". You can bet your sweet bippy that he does not want to die either. Call it the "Shades/Dragon Blackmail Gambit" Fun. XO, Snow :cloud9:
Edward 06-23-04, 02:52 AM	Can somebody post the text of the spell. I am getting into this but am t a severe disadvantage. I would not allow the Shades/Dragon Blackmail Gambit to work. That would be over powered. If necessary I would not have the dragon believe it would cease to exist. I maintain my belief that the shadow creature ceases to exist when the spell expirers. As argument for this I will point out that wish the pinical of mortal magic is incapable of creating new life and it takes an epic spell with something like 3 seeds to do it. If the dragon was to continue to exist the spell holds no provision for making it a safe place on the plane of shadow to store its horde he would need to claim one after returning there. There is no spell listed that acts as an iterdimensional equivalent to teleport object (gate may suffice but that is 9th level and not every dragon has it) and as with any spell cast by the shadow dragon it only has an 80% chance of working. Edward