Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hovnarr 11-02-04, 09:39 AM	I originally posted this in the optimization forum, but I was urged to move it here, so: I'm strongly considering taking Rope Trick for my sorceror, but I'm having trouble assessing the spell. So you create this extradimensional space, big enough for 8 peopl, with a dimensional interface that is 3'x5' and parallel to the ground as well as perpendicular to the rope to access it. This "window" is invisible from the material plane! First a few questions about the space itself: *What is the climate in there? *Is illumination provided? *Could the 8 people stand up inside - how big is it really? *Could you make a fire in there for cooking purposes - what would happen? I imagine the space is dark, ambient temperature irrespective of climate outside, and that the "window" is sort of like a hole in the floor in a large, square extradimensional cottage measuring about 15'x10' with a height of 5'. The interface probably dampens even strong winds from the material plane, as well as most small particles caught in the breeze and there is no heat transfer at the interface. The space is closed and lighting a fire inside is a bad idea. Correct? Now, to the abuse issue: *Can material objects pass freely through this interface? Could I snipe with my crossbow from this concealed position or throw alchemist's fire, for instance? *Could I lean out from my hiding place with my legs and torso in the extradimensional space and with arms (for S components) and mouth (for V components) in the material plane and cast a spell like that and return to the space as a move action? What does "spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface" really mean? Could I for instance summon a monster to appear in the material plane while I rest leisurely in my place of hiding? Anymore suggestions for how to (ab)use this spell?
kSquared 11-02-04, 10:01 AM	I'll leave your other points for everyone else, but: What does "spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface" really mean? Could I for instance summon a monster to appear in the material plane while I rest leisurely in my place of hiding?It means that your line of effect is broken. You need line of effect to target someone or to create an effect in a square, so no, you couldn't summon a monster across the interface.
hovnarr 11-02-04, 10:10 AM	Ah... so what we have then is a mid air "wall of force globe" of sorts restricted to magical effects (or so it appears from the description). Since it is also situated in the middle of the air and invisible, it's in practice impervious to most melee attacks. This leaves missile, provided there is no restriction on physical objects moving across the interface. And the most intriguing question of leaning out of the extradimensional compartment. You can't do THAT with a wall of force. And it's impervious to Disintegrate. And it lasts one hour per level. Btw, can a material plane caster target a dispel at the extradimensional surface (provided you can see it of course) thus ending the spell? Or is the line of effect of that dispel magic infact discontinous at the end point?
carnivore 11-02-04, 10:32 AM	it is possible to cast spells accross the dimensional interface...in both directions..with the metamagic feat"transdimensional spell" although this spell is very handy, it is not foolproof or invulnerable. but when used properly it will serve you well. :D
Thelon Fairblade 11-02-04, 11:05 AM	Don't forget this abuse: obstacle avoidance. Put up the rop trick next to an obstacle blocking your path. And I mean *right* next to it, so the Area of Effect of the "window" crosses the barrier. Climb up on this side, climb down on that side... Here's a question: is the Rope Trick space airtight? If not, poison or acidic or flammable gases could still kill you. If so, you can survive underwater this way too.
Noriass Gato 11-02-04, 11:22 AM	Into one of campaigns i was playing, one of my friends was a sorcerer who had this RopeTrick, and it was a baad thing we did use. It was unload all spells/things and then sit it out in ropetrick. 8 hours sleep, not always peaceful (once we were sitting in Ropetrick after assassinating an orc army general, but under us about a thousant orcs were chanting war chants and sharpening their weaponry. Luckily, i had a Silence spell to let us sleep a bit...) Also, to fire off a magic missile, you had just to put a finger outside. Of course, once an enemy spellcaster unloaded his own MM salvo at said finger too :D :D :D Our sorcerer wasnt happy... But to your answers. 1) climate - mild average for humanoid beings. +18 Celsius, id say, average humidity and all. 2) only illumination is what is coming thry the hole, or provided by the inhabitants. Making 'light' spell or something like that a good thing to have. Then again, we usually have them. 3) you cant have a dance party here - well, at least a latin-american dances variety... Other that that, you are tight, but not as tight as fish in a barrel. 4) smoke would make you all sick. Plus it would give out the entry point to anyone looking. I dont think, you could die from lack of oxygen, though... For this, a traveller food - cheese, dried meat, fruits, and water in waterskins is meant for. Of course, cold remains of yesterdays deer ribs, or lamb's leg is also available. About the dimensions, we all imagined it not as a cube, but as a ball. Im not sure, if we did it correctly, though. Also, you dont create bubble on the field, in material plane only thing is the entrance (just like the hole Bugs Bunny uses in cartoons) 5) we sometimes did snipe ouf of ropetrick, but... the snipers were counterfired back... just having a cover... It doesnt make you unreachable, as anything can pass thry entrance... Plus, can you imagine results if enemy magician manages to land a fireball INSIDE? Mostly we did use it as disappearing trick - cast invisibility, cast ropetrick, make enemy guess where we went... Also, often weaker party members retreated to it to escape nasty area effect throwing enemies...
hovnarr 11-03-04, 03:44 AM	Thanks for all the input people! Don't forget this abuse: obstacle avoidance. True! I had missed that. That's one way for a low level caster to get behind a high level caster's wall of force, for instance :) Here's a question: is the Rope Trick space airtight? If not, poison or acidic or flammable gases could still kill you. If so, you can survive underwater this way too. The way I had envisioned it: No. It's not airtight. 8 people would use up the air pretty quickly in there. Provided the gases you mention are non-magical and lighter than air - yes, they would seep in just as air do. I imagine it would work as an immobile diving bell under water. One thing that bugs me is that the spell description doesn't actually say that you can climb back OUT again. So maybe the passage is one way only? Then you could not get back out short of dismissing the spell, nor could you shoot anything out from the dimension. But... that would be very unpractical since new air could get in but CO2 could not get out, meaning that no new air would get in and the party would suffocate. So I guess you ARE free to leave the space at your leisure since it doesn't say otherwise. This way you could use the space for storage too, perhaps in order to create a trap. Load it up with big stones and dismiss the spell when an enemy is beneath. Or load it up with gasoline flasks and dismiss the spell before you cast fireball :) Noriass: I agree with you except for the ball part. I agree that would make it more consistent with other spell effects, but it's kind a hard sleeping in a sphere, I imagine. Someone might roll down towards the opening, and it would look silly if his foot was sticking out in midair... In short, I imagine the space as an extradimensional tent for 8 people! 5) we sometimes did snipe ouf of ropetrick, but... the snipers were counterfired back... just having a cover... It doesnt make you unreachable, as anything can pass thry entrance... Plus, can you imagine results if enemy magician manages to land a fireball INSIDE? Mostly we did use it as disappearing trick - cast invisibility, cast ropetrick, make enemy guess where we went... The fireball spell couldn't pass through the opening. It would either burst prematurely (no part of the effect would reach inside) or continue it's path on the material plane. Even if a DM ruled it was possible, I would have the advantage of sending fireballs through the opening AND being able to see my target. As for the sniping part, I think it's really spiffy. First of all, you're invisible to just about anything. Even if it can see the invisible window, it can't see through it, so there's still a 50% miss chance. And there's the +4 cover AC bonus, along with all the other bonuses that comes from being invisible. Chances of someone actually hitting you in there are slim, and at any rate much more so than your chances of hitting them. Question: Anybody knows if sound actually passes through the barrier? But now to an important point that I have unearthed in the 3.5 SRD. Consider kSquared's reply to this thread: It means that your line of effect is broken. You need line of effect to target someone or to create an effect in a square, so no, you couldn't summon a monster across the interface. If this is true, I'm alarmed to read the following in the 3.5 SRD under "Cover": Total Cover: If you don’t have line of effect to your target he is considered to have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover. This would mean that it is infact impossible to attack in or out of a rope trick - not only with spells but also with missile weapons. Unless you lean out of course (if that is possible). Has anyone seen any official clarifications on this? Edit: According to this Official FAQ: www.slobfest.org/~cataclysm/ resources/MainFAQv05082003.pdf Rope trick does not cause any trouble with extradimensional containers despite the foreboding words in the spell description. Seems odd though.
GRAOUH !!! 11-03-04, 04:52 AM	Rope Trick Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 2 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: One touched piece of rope from 5 ft. to 30 ft. long Duration: 1 hour/level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5 to 30 feet long, one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular to the ground, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”). Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes. The space holds as many as eight creatures (of any size). Creatures in the space can pull the rope up into the space, making the rope “disappear.” In that case, the rope counts as one of the eight creatures that can fit in the space. The rope can support up to 16,000 pounds. A weight greater than that can pull the rope free. Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot-by- 5-foot window were centered on the rope. The window is present on the Material Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can’t see through it. Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time. The rope trick spell enables climbers to reach a normal place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space. Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one. Material Component: Powdered corn extract and a twisted loop of parchment. You can use weapons, you have a line of sight. Transdimensional spells can't be cast through the window from inside, but can be cast at you from the primary plane. I think that conjured creatures would be considered out of range when entering the other plane. I have one question. Yhe note means that you can't go inside with a bag of holding or a portable hole ? What are the effects ?
hovnarr 11-03-04, 05:32 AM	Thanks for copying the spell description to the thread - it facilitates the continued discussion. You can use weapons, you have a line of sight. I do have line of sight, but do I have line of effect? That is, do I have "a straight unblocked path" to the target? You can see through a Wall of Force, but you cannot shoot missiles through it. So you can have line of sight without having line of effect and be denied attacks as a result of that. It even says so expressly in the 3.5 SRD as I quoted above. No line of effect = total cover = no attacks. The questions is really IS THERE, in fact, a line of effect? That is, is the Rope Trick some special effect that simply prevent magic from crossing, or does it funtion like a wall of force? I'm thinking that it doesn't - since you can climb in through the window, the window is permeable to material objects, does not disrupt line of effect, but prevents magic from crossing. I would simply say that the window is a "planar rift" and spells can't pass through it even though there is no object blocking the path. Magic is distorted by the rift, physical objects are not. Transdimensional spells can't be cast through the window from inside, but can be cast at you from the primary plane. Correct. Transdimensional spell does not allow you to ignore the planar rift, but allows you to affect targets (as stated below) that you couldn't normally affect. Here's the descpription: Transdimensional Spell [Metamagic] You can cast spells that affect targets lurking in coexistent planes and extradimensional spaces whose entrances fall within the area affected. Benefit: A transdimensional spell has full, normal effect upon incorporeal creatures, creatures on the Ethereal Plane or Plane of Shadow, and creatures within an extradimensional space in the area affected. Such creatures include ethereal creatures, creatures that are blinking or shadow walking, manifested ghosts, and creatures within the extradimensional space of a rope trick or portable hole. You must be able to perceive a creature to specifically target it with a spell, but you do not need to perceive a creature to catch it in the area of a burst, cone, emanation, or spread. A transdimensional spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level. Normal: Only force spells and effects can affect ethereal creatures, and no Material Plane attack affects creatures on the Plane of Shadow or in an enclosed extradimensional space. There is a 50% chance that any spell other than a force effect fails against an incorporeal creature. I think that conjured creatures would be considered out of range when entering the other plane. You couldn't summon them from inside to appear in the material plane, any more than you could make them appear on another plane any other time when you cast the spell. You might be able to summon a few celestial bisons in the space itself, raise your defenses and then dismiss the rope trick... Charge! I have one question. Yhe note means that you can't go inside with a bag of holding or a portable hole ? What are the effects ? The spell simply states that this would be hazardous. The official FAQ posted above states that this is only empty words and absolutely nothing would happen if you did it. Though if that is the case, I can't understand why they have not omitted that line from the SRD...
Mentar 11-03-04, 07:27 AM	As to the extradimentional space in an extradimentional space, the warnings seem to be holdovers from older editions where there were rules. One example is throwing a bag of holding into a portable hole could cause anything from a nuclear style blast to the loss of both items as the spaces ruptured. In most games I have played taking a bag of holding into an extradimentional space caused the collapse of both with a 20% chance of loosing each item contained, including PCs becoming lost in enclosed pockets of space with no exit. Items not lost were expelled from the extradimentional space would appear on the ground. An easy way to loose a bag of holding and a portable hole. I have not seen updates on the rules but effects in 1st and 2nd editions were left to the DM to decide. My ruling would be that all items in the bag and all people in the ropetrick effect would fall to the ground while the ropetrick and bag of holding vanished. But that is just what I would do as DM, yours may do something different.
kSquared 11-03-04, 07:50 AM	This would mean that it is infact impossible to attack in or out of a rope trick - not only with spells but also with missile weapons.I think the "if" statement in the SRD needs to be reversed. Rather than "If you don't have line of effect to a square, you have total cover from that square", it should be "If you have total cover from a square, you don't have line of effect to that square". Line of effect for spells is different than line of effect for weapons in some cases. For instance, an antimagic field blocks line of effect for spells just like a wall of force, but it doesn't stop arrows. Complicating the matter further, line of effect can also turn corners in some cases, like a spread spell. In any case, I don't believe that rope trick is really meant to be used offensively that way. It seems to be more of a "let's take a breather" spell rather than a "sniper's hideout".
hovnarr 11-03-04, 08:05 AM	In any case, I don't believe that rope trick is really meant to be used offensively that way. Ah yes, but if every spell was to be used the way it was meant to be used, I suppose playing a spell caster would be a lot less interesting option. The interesting part is how you could use it and how you would use it. On another note, if you have a rope that is precisely 7,5' long you can climb this rope as a move action the same round you cast the spell with a DC of 5 if you have a 30' speed. Or you could cover a 15' rope in the same time at a DC of 10. How long does it take to pull the rope up? Is that a free action? Does it take any time for the rope to snake upward or is that part of the 1 action casting time? Mentar, it is a point for the DM to decide. The FAQ provides guidelines on the matters you mention too, however.
carnivore 11-03-04, 08:12 AM	thank you for quoting the feat Transdimensional spell does not allow you to ignore the planar rift, but allows you to affect targets (as stated below) that you couldn't normally affect. Here's the descpription: Transdimensional Spell [Metamagic] You can cast spells that affect targets lurking in coexistent planes and extradimensional spaces whose entrances fall within the area affected. Benefit: A transdimensional spell has full, normal effect upon incorporeal creatures, creatures on the Ethereal Plane or Plane of Shadow, and creatures within an extradimensional space in the area affected. Such creatures include ethereal creatures, creatures that are blinking or shadow walking, manifested ghosts, and creatures within the extradimensional space of a rope trick or portable hole. You must be able to perceive a creature to specifically target it with a spell, but you do not need to perceive a creature to catch it in the area of a burst, cone, emanation, or spread. A transdimensional spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level. Normal: Only force spells and effects can affect ethereal creatures, and no Material Plane attack affects creatures on the Plane of Shadow or in an enclosed extradimensional space. There is a 50% chance that any spell other than a force effect fails against an incorporeal creature. .. so if you are inside or outside a rope trick spell and if you have the feat transdimensional spell .......you can attack either way as long as you can percieve a target or use an area effect spell
hovnarr 11-03-04, 09:27 AM	Carnivore, I would interpret it like this. The feat makes no reference to the caster of the spell, but redefines what is a valid target for the metamagicked spell. Consider a caster inside the Rope Trick, targeting a human caster outside on the material plane: You can cast spells that affect targets lurking in coexistent planes and extradimensional spaces whose entrances fall within the area affected. The target could be characterized as a "target lurking in a coexistent plane", and is so far valid, even though we are pushing it by refering to denizens of the material plane in that way. upon incorporeal creatures, creatures on the Ethereal Plane or Plane of Shadow The human caster on the material plane does not qualify for this description. Nor, of course, is the target in any extradimensional space - he is simply on the material plane. Such creatures include ethereal creatures, creatures that are blinking or shadow walking, manifested ghosts The human caster on the prime material plane does not qualify for the specific examples either. Conclusion: With this feat, a human caster on the material plane could affect a human caster inside a Rope Trick spell with an extradimensional fireball, but the opposite is not possible. It is the fact that you are inside an extradimensional space that qualifies you as a target for such a spell - the spell itself gains no special qualities that enables it to bypass the planar rift. Anyhow, I'd appreciate further comments on the Rope Trick spell itself. I think the description leaves alot of question to be answered.
Boredflak 11-03-04, 02:06 PM	We've interpreted the following to allow only someone climbing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/climb.htm) the rope to enter and exit the Rope Trick (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ropeTrick.htm): "The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time. The rope trick spell enables climbers to reach a normal place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space." The point where the rope is "fastened" to the extradimensional space is immovable, therefore the entry and exit point is immovable. Note that the spell says you can only see out of the extradimensional space as if a 3-foot-by- 5-foot window were centered on the rope. We also rule that if the rope is pulled free from (as opposed to pulled into) the extradimensional space, the spell ends. I think this fixes most of the "abuse" I see listed here.
hovnarr 11-03-04, 03:52 PM	Boredflak, Are you suggesting that material objects cannot, then, pass through the "window", and infact only stuff that is climbing the rope can do so?
Boredflak 11-03-04, 04:39 PM	Are you suggesting that material objects cannot, then, pass through the "window", and infact only stuff that is climbing the rope can do so? Exactly. The rope is the conduit into and out of the extradimensional space. You can only use the rope to enter or exit the extradimensional space by climbing it. Your equipment comes with you. The "window" is simply a way to see out of the space. It is not the method for passing in and out. The rope is. Size doesn't seem to be a limitation for entering the space since it can hold up to eight creatures "of any size". Of course a creature weighing more than 16,000 would pull the rope free if they tried to climb it, but an elder air elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm#airElemental) (weighing only 12 lb., but standing 40 ft. tall) could climb the rope and enter the space. You could exit the space using other forms of interplanar travel such as Plane Shift (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm) or Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) As far as the size of the extradimensional space, I've always used the idea of curved space. When a creature moves more than 10 ft. away from the rope they appear opposite the rope, moving towards it. Like the space ship in Asteroids (http://www.squadron13.com/games/asteroids/asteroids.htm).
hovnarr 11-04-04, 04:28 AM	Boredflak, I must say that I really enjoy this way of interpreting the spell. Infact, what I like most about it is that you do not add anything new; you simply interpret what's already there in a very strict sense - which is necessary for such a versatile spell. You're right, it does put an end to many question marks, and I like you're ideas on warped space too. Your advice on two more questions: *Would a caster able to see invisible objects be able to end the spell prematurely by casting a dispel magic on it? *How long does it take to retract the rope? I would say that you can dispel it and that you can pull up as a free action any length of rope that you have climbed as a move action (longer ropes take a move action to retract). This would allow you to cast the spell, climb up as a move (if you succeed on climbing) and pull the rope up - all on your turn.
Boredflak 11-04-04, 11:25 AM	Would a caster able to see invisible objects be able to end the spell prematurely by casting a dispel magic on it? Definitely. Since a targeted Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm) can target "One object, creature, or spell", and the caster you mentioned can see the spell. How long does it take to retract the rope? I'd say it's a move action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#moveActions) that provokes an attack of opportunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm) (from an opponent that's inside the extradimensional space). This seems like a good example of manipulating an item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#manipulateanItem) to me. The closest equivalent example in Table: Actions in Combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#tableActionsinCombat ) is "pick up an item".
calypso 11-04-04, 11:32 AM	Now, here's my question: Would magic jar work across the interface? You're not casting across the interface, just attempting to possess someone across it? Or, is the range broken because it's on a different plane? Calypso
carnivore 11-04-04, 11:40 AM	if the players are smart the last one up the rope , tucks the end in his belt before he goes up that way the rope goes with him ;)
Boredflak 11-04-04, 11:43 AM	It looks like the Wizards boards are stripping the fragment/anchor identifier out of my URLs, so the links in my posts above won't scroll you to the exact content referenced. Sorry.
Talchar 11-04-04, 11:08 PM	Just a couple of Cp's worth of thought Rope Trick The window = A non-mobile dedicated magical sensor. Subject to all the rules that apply to magical sensors. The extrademensional Space: You can dispel the effect, but you cannot cast into or out of the effect. Take the Maxe spell as an example of an extrademinsional space interaction with the prime material plane.
hovnarr 11-05-04, 03:15 AM	Thanks for the extra clarifications folks. Calypso, as a matter of fact, I think it would. All references to being on the same plane in Magic Jar are made in reference to the jar and the target - not jar and caster. Even if we interpret "spells cannot be cast through the membrane" as breaking line of effect, magic jar states you don't need LoE to the jar. You just have to "know where it is". Your familiar could move around with the jar on the material plane. You could even set up a contingency to dimension door you to your familiars location if things would go bad and it would move out of range. Anybody disagrees? Magic Jarring from a Rope Trick is, as they say, a neat trick.
Boredflak 11-05-04, 04:05 PM	Anybody disagrees? Magic Jarring from a Rope Trick is, as they say, a neat trick. While in the extradimensional space, you're infinitely far away from any other plane, including your plane of origin. Therefore the distance between anything inside the extradimensional space and anything outside the extradimensional space is far beyond the range of any Magic Jar effect. So... If you cast Magic Jar inside the Rope Trick, the jar will have to be carried outside of the extradimensional space to be used on any creatures outside of the Rope Trick. If the spell ends or a possessed host body is destroyed while the jar is outside of the Rope Trick and the caster's body is inside the Rope Trick, the caster would die.
hovnarr 11-06-04, 07:21 AM	If you cast Magic Jar inside the Rope Trick, the jar will have to be carried outside of the extradimensional space to be used on any creatures outside of the Rope Trick. PRECISELY! *fanatical grin* So what you do once inside the comfort of your rope trick is take out your diminutive bat familiar with Hide +16. A small gem is attached around its neck. Cast Magic Jar, out climbs the bat and... you get the picture. The neat thing is that your body is kept from harm for 1hr/lvl and jar lasts 2hrs/lvl, so this is good for possesive scouting experiences etc. Since it is actually "you" in the gem, I would also rule that your empathic link with the familiar is as normal, so while you can't speak or see through its eyes, you get a much better grasp on your surrounding than in the normal jar. Just double back before the rope trick ends and you'll be fine... Unless of course someone catches you and casts dispel magic while your body is on another plane - then you're dead! So, never ever use this tactic when there's a chance of dispel magic or similar magic or if your familiar risks being prevented from returning in any way. That aside, it's a neat way of keeping your body almost completely safe from harm when jarring.
hovnarr 11-06-04, 08:02 AM	If the spell ends or a possessed host body is destroyed while the jar is outside of the Rope Trick and the caster's body is inside the Rope Trick, the caster would die. If it ends yes, or is dispelled - in short if the life force has nowhere to go (out of range or on other plane) you die. But if the host is destroyed the caster simply returns to the jar (carefully placed around his familiar's neck and within range...): If the host body is slain, you return to the magic jar, if within range, and the life force of the host departs (it is dead). And you can possess the next creature, and the next, and the next - until the spell is dispelled or the gem destroyed. The spell can be dispelled both at the jar or the creature possessed. But since the familiar should be well hidden and the enemy might not realise what's going on, dispel at the creature is expected. And then...: As a standard action, you can shift freely from a host to the magic jar if within range, sending the trapped soul back to its body. The spell ends when you shift from the jar to your own body. If you would find yourself in a tight spot and it seems that someone is about to dispel you, why not ready a shift back to magic jar with the trigger "if the magic jar would be successfully dispelled". You can have your fun and return to the safety of your familiar when things get nasty.
Shatteredtower 11-06-04, 09:32 AM	Are you sure the familiar should be well hidden? That +16 Hide modifier is worthless without proper cover or concealment, which has to be within 10 feet per caster level of a target and within line of effect, which is close enough to give your familiar away to anyone with arcane sight until you've reached at least 13th level. If your target should be dragged out of that range, your familiar (not you) has to decide whether or not to risk revealing itself in order to keep you alive. Good luck to you both if the possessed party's allies only knock you out and try teleporting away to fix the problem. Furthermore, once a creature saves against the possession attempt, you can't affect it directly with this spell at all. You can't even be all that selective about your targets in many cases, especially if all of the targets are within 4 HD of strength from one another and either all living or all dead. If you jar one of six ogres and it gets paralyzed, you can jar out, then have a one in six change of jarring back into the same ogre. (That's merely inconvenient, I admit, but don't you just hate it when that happens?) It's a cunning strategy and some of the counters mentioned above aren't likely to be too common (though knocking your host out is a viable option that the spell doesn't counter well), but it's not a sure thing even against an unprepared enemy. It's big weakness is that you can't rely on any allies aside from your familiar -- who isn't exactly a tank or a healing machine, if you know what I mean. It might not a bad idea for limited reconnaissance, though, rather than as a means of staging a one-wizard assault. That might be the strongest method of combining these two spells.
hovnarr 11-06-04, 10:10 AM	It might not a bad idea for limited reconnaissance, though, rather than as a means of staging a one-wizard assault. That might be the strongest method of combining these two spells. I agree, that would be the most appropriate use for this particular jar mode. That +16 Hide modifier is worthless without proper cover or concealment, which has to be within 10 feet per caster level of a target and within line of effect, which is close enough to give your familiar away to anyone with arcane sight until you've reached at least 13th level. 1) Yes, you need cover. In most settings, a diminutive bat familiar can usually find such cover within 100', most often in a ceiling or perhaps a tree branch. 2) No, you do not need line of effect. 3) Arcane sight suggests dispel magic, and then this would be a suicidal strategy anyway. Use it against non casters only. You could also question if the receptacle would show up on arcane sight, but that point is moot. Furthermore, once a creature saves against the possession attempt, you can't affect it directly with this spell at all. You can't even be all that selective about your targets in many cases, especially if all of the targets are within 4 HD of strength from one another and either all living or all dead. If you jar one of six ogres and it gets paralyzed, you can jar out, then have a one in six change of jarring back into the same ogre True. The familiar has an important role there to, since you have an empathic link. It could describe the target better and convey it to you while you're in the jar. Regardless of support spells like Rope Trick, when you use magic jar offensively you kill those who have saved first so as not to reduce new eligible targets when your current host dies. (though knocking your host out is a viable option that the spell doesn't counter well) Can't you jar back to the receptacle if your host is knocked out? Or is there a difference between unconcious and helpless? This would mean that Sleep or similar effects are useful to trap a possesser. Contingency (a personal effect that travels with you as you jar) could be set up to counter this, I imagine. Anyhow, when using magic jar offensively, I'd recommend using polymorf and invisibility instead (see "Let's talk Magic Jar"). That solves plane issues and makes it more easy to end the jar mode for something better when you run out of luck. Unconciousness might still be a problem though.
hovnarr 11-06-04, 10:19 AM	A glimpse of hope for those who detest Magic Jar: Dying: A dying character is unconscious and near death. She has –1 to –9 current hit points. A dying character can take no actions and is unconscious. As a standard action, you can shift freely from a host to the magic jar if within range, sending the trapped soul back to its body. The spell ends when you shift from the jar to your own body. If the host body is slain, you return to the magic jar, if within range, and the life force of the host departs (it is dead). When your host is dying but not dead you may not return to the receptacle, nor is the host body slain causing you to do so automatically. If you get teleported away at that moment, yes, you're in trouble.