AC Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

AC Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Meyer_William
07-08-05, 04:15 PM What is the AC of the following Monk:
Level 5
Dex: 14
Wis: 14
Ring of Protection +1
Amulet of Natural Armor +1

Active Spells:
Shield (UMD check probably)
Mage Armor (Sorceror cast)
Magic Vestment (Cleric cast on clothes)

Is it:
How does everything stack/resolve?
Does the mage armor prevent the monk's AC bonuses (wis/monk) from working?
Does the magic vestment'ed clothes prevent the monk's AC bonuses (wis/monk) from working?
Does the magic vestment'ed clothes get overlapped by the mage armor value?

The way I read it -- everything is a separate bonus
(Dex, Wis, Unnamed, Deflection, natural armor, shield, armor, enhancement)

Thoughts?
tarkin
07-08-05, 04:49 PM Not quite

Magic Vestment provides an enhancement to the cloathing, not directly to your AC.

As such, the Cloathing now provides an Armor bonus to you, which does not stack with Mage Armor.

Everything else stacks:
10 base:
Level 5 = +1 unnamed
Dex: 14 = +2 Dex bonus
Wis: 14 = +2 Wis bonus
Ring of Protection +1 Deflection
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 Natural Armor

Active Spells:
Shield (UMD check probably) +4 Shield
Mage Armor (Sorceror cast) +4 Armor
Magic Vestment (Cleric cast on clothes) An armor bonus, that is less than and does not stack with Mage armor:

= 25 total. Not bad. Make him a halfling and get +1 from size (and another +1 from dex)
Wookie1120
07-08-05, 07:40 PM Tarkin's got it nailed on the head as far as I can see. My only question is whether or not this monk is multi-classed sor/wiz, as Shield's range is self, so can't be cast on him by someone else. Other than that, a very respectable AC.
The_Prophet
07-09-05, 06:31 PM Tarkin's got it nailed on the head as far as I can see. My only question is whether or not this monk is multi-classed sor/wiz, as Shield's range is self, so can't be cast on him by someone else. Other than that, a very respectable AC.

Emphasis mine

I beleive the OP intended the shield spell to be UMD'ed from a scroll or perhaps a wand?
Meyer_William
07-11-05, 08:23 AM The actual character is a multi-class monk/sorceror -- however -- in the example -- i put "UMD probably" to eliminate any worries of who casts it.

I disagree that the enhancement bonus increases the armor value of the clothing ... per the SRD:

Magic Vestment
Transmutation
Level: Clr 3, Strength 3, War 3
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Armor or shield touched
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)
You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).
An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.

(From the magic armor section)
Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield and magic shield enhancement bonuses).

It does not say "enhancement bonuses increase the magic armor's armor bonus" .. it says that the enhancement bonus stacks with armor bonuses ... which is what I am trying to do.
tarkin
07-11-05, 12:10 PM You may disagree all you want, but I gave you the rules as played at GenCon, Living City etc.

Anything else is a House Rule.

Re-read the spell.

It NEVER says it provides an Armor Bonus.

It says:

You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).

As you can clearly see, the spell provides NO bonus to you whatsoever. It provides a bonus to the armor/shield/cloathing.

The problem is you are trying to cheat the game by making it "cloathing".

Forget about the cloathing for a second. Assume you are wearing normal full Plate, +8 AC. When you magically enhance that plate using this spell, it become +9 AC.

Would that +9 stack with the +4 from a Mage Armor spell? No. Armor does not stack with itself.

Same thing applies with cloathing, only instead of starting out as +8, you start out as +0.

-----------------

What you really want to do is to cast Magic Vestment on your Mage Armor spell. But it does not allow you to do that.

Why? Because they consider that to be abusive.
Meyer_William
07-11-05, 12:51 PM Tarkin,
First of all -- Clothing -- not Cloathing ...

Second -- per the spell : An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.

This clearly states that it an be cast on clothes ...

Your question about the plate mail ... my thoughts, are that there is a +8 armor bonus -- which overlaps the +4 armor bonus from Magic Armor ... The +1 enhancement bonus per the rules, stacks with the armor bonus from the plate mail.

The issue is whether the +1 enhancement bonus is only in effect when the +8 armor bonus is in effect -- a better example would be if you were wearing +1 leather armor -- as the +2 armor bonus for leather would be overlapped with the +4 armor bonus from the mage armor. The question would be if the +1 enhancement bonus would apply as well ...

As far as house rules are concerned ... unless there is a FAQ or Errata that you can point out ... this interpretation potentially more valid than what they are using ...

If you can point me to something that backs your position, I would be very pleased ... even if it is a "here is a link to living greyhawk where it says we will be playing this way"
Merestil Haye
07-11-05, 01:31 PM Tarkin,
First of all -- Clothing -- not Cloathing ...

Second -- per the spell : An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.

This clearly states that it an be cast on clothes ...Correct. A set of clothes is treated by the Magic Vestment spell as armour that provides a +0 armour bonus.Your question about the plate mail ... my thoughts, are that there is a +8 armor bonus -- which overlaps the +4 armor bonus from Magic Armor ... The +1 enhancement bonus per the rules, stacks with the armor bonus from the plate mail.

The issue is whether the +1 enhancement bonus is only in effect when the +8 armor bonus is in effect -- a better example would be if you were wearing +1 leather armor -- as the +2 armor bonus for leather would be overlapped with the +4 armor bonus from the mage armor. The question would be if the +1 enhancement bonus would apply as well ...

As far as house rules are concerned ... unless there is a FAQ or Errata that you can point out ... this interpretation potentially more valid than what they are using ...

If you can point me to something that backs your position, I would be very pleased ... even if it is a "here is a link to living greyhawk where it says we will be playing this way"How about this question from the 3.5 FAQ?I have a bard in my game who has a bit of money to spend. She buys a set of bracers of armor +3 and a suit of +3 leather armor. If the bard wears both at the same time, the armor bonus from the bracers (+3) overrides the armor bonus from the leather armor (+1). Our question is, does the +3 enhancement bonus from the armor still get applied for a total of +6, is it subsumed by the magic of the bracers, or is it just ignored completely? Since the enhancement bonus and armor bonus are different types of bonuses, the bard thinks her total Armor Class bonus should be +6.
The magic leather armor’s +3 enhancement bonus applies to make the armor’s armor bonus bigger (+4 in this case). The example character uses only the larger armor bonus (+4) when wearing both the armor and the bracers.

The overlapping +3 bonus from the bracers is still there, however. (It is just irrelevant most of the time.) If something bypasses the +4 bonus from the magic armor, the bracers might still prove effective. For example, an incorporeal touch attack bypasses the whole armor bonus from the magic armor. Since the bracers provide a force effect, they protect the bard against the incorporeal touch attack. The example character still has a +3 armor bonus against the incorporeal touch attack.Seems clear enough. If you are wearing magically enhanced armour and Bracers of Armour, you add the armour's enhancement bonus to the armour's AC bonus to get the total armour bonus delivered by that suit of armour, and compare that to the bracers. The higher one wins.

The fact that both the questioner and the answer-writer both managed to get the AC bonus of leather armour wrong does not invalidate the main point.
Meyer_William
07-11-05, 02:13 PM Thank you.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Meyer_William 07-08-05, 04:15 PM	What is the AC of the following Monk: Level 5 Dex: 14 Wis: 14 Ring of Protection +1 Amulet of Natural Armor +1 Active Spells: Shield (UMD check probably) Mage Armor (Sorceror cast) Magic Vestment (Cleric cast on clothes) Is it: How does everything stack/resolve? Does the mage armor prevent the monk's AC bonuses (wis/monk) from working? Does the magic vestment'ed clothes prevent the monk's AC bonuses (wis/monk) from working? Does the magic vestment'ed clothes get overlapped by the mage armor value? The way I read it -- everything is a separate bonus (Dex, Wis, Unnamed, Deflection, natural armor, shield, armor, enhancement) Thoughts?
tarkin 07-08-05, 04:49 PM	Not quite Magic Vestment provides an enhancement to the cloathing, not directly to your AC. As such, the Cloathing now provides an Armor bonus to you, which does not stack with Mage Armor. Everything else stacks: 10 base: Level 5 = +1 unnamed Dex: 14 = +2 Dex bonus Wis: 14 = +2 Wis bonus Ring of Protection +1 Deflection Amulet of Natural Armor +1 Natural Armor Active Spells: Shield (UMD check probably) +4 Shield Mage Armor (Sorceror cast) +4 Armor Magic Vestment (Cleric cast on clothes) An armor bonus, that is less than and does not stack with Mage armor: = 25 total. Not bad. Make him a halfling and get +1 from size (and another +1 from dex)
Wookie1120 07-08-05, 07:40 PM	Tarkin's got it nailed on the head as far as I can see. My only question is whether or not this monk is multi-classed sor/wiz, as Shield's range is self, so can't be cast on him by someone else. Other than that, a very respectable AC.
The_Prophet 07-09-05, 06:31 PM	Tarkin's got it nailed on the head as far as I can see. My only question is whether or not this monk is multi-classed sor/wiz, as Shield's range is self, so can't be cast on him by someone else. Other than that, a very respectable AC. Emphasis mine I beleive the OP intended the shield spell to be UMD'ed from a scroll or perhaps a wand?
Meyer_William 07-11-05, 08:23 AM	The actual character is a multi-class monk/sorceror -- however -- in the example -- i put "UMD probably" to eliminate any worries of who casts it. I disagree that the enhancement bonus increases the armor value of the clothing ... per the SRD: Magic Vestment Transmutation Level: Clr 3, Strength 3, War 3 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Armor or shield touched Duration: 1 hour/level Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object) You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level). An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell. (From the magic armor section) Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield and magic shield enhancement bonuses). It does not say "enhancement bonuses increase the magic armor's armor bonus" .. it says that the enhancement bonus stacks with armor bonuses ... which is what I am trying to do.
tarkin 07-11-05, 12:10 PM	You may disagree all you want, but I gave you the rules as played at GenCon, Living City etc. Anything else is a House Rule. Re-read the spell. It NEVER says it provides an Armor Bonus. It says: You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level). As you can clearly see, the spell provides NO bonus to you whatsoever. It provides a bonus to the armor/shield/cloathing. The problem is you are trying to cheat the game by making it "cloathing". Forget about the cloathing for a second. Assume you are wearing normal full Plate, +8 AC. When you magically enhance that plate using this spell, it become +9 AC. Would that +9 stack with the +4 from a Mage Armor spell? No. Armor does not stack with itself. Same thing applies with cloathing, only instead of starting out as +8, you start out as +0. ----------------- What you really want to do is to cast Magic Vestment on your Mage Armor spell. But it does not allow you to do that. Why? Because they consider that to be abusive.
Meyer_William 07-11-05, 12:51 PM	Tarkin, First of all -- Clothing -- not Cloathing ... Second -- per the spell : An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell. This clearly states that it an be cast on clothes ... Your question about the plate mail ... my thoughts, are that there is a +8 armor bonus -- which overlaps the +4 armor bonus from Magic Armor ... The +1 enhancement bonus per the rules, stacks with the armor bonus from the plate mail. The issue is whether the +1 enhancement bonus is only in effect when the +8 armor bonus is in effect -- a better example would be if you were wearing +1 leather armor -- as the +2 armor bonus for leather would be overlapped with the +4 armor bonus from the mage armor. The question would be if the +1 enhancement bonus would apply as well ... As far as house rules are concerned ... unless there is a FAQ or Errata that you can point out ... this interpretation potentially more valid than what they are using ... If you can point me to something that backs your position, I would be very pleased ... even if it is a "here is a link to living greyhawk where it says we will be playing this way"
Merestil Haye 07-11-05, 01:31 PM	Tarkin, First of all -- Clothing -- not Cloathing ... Second -- per the spell : An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell. This clearly states that it an be cast on clothes ...Correct. A set of clothes is treated by the Magic Vestment spell as armour that provides a +0 armour bonus.Your question about the plate mail ... my thoughts, are that there is a +8 armor bonus -- which overlaps the +4 armor bonus from Magic Armor ... The +1 enhancement bonus per the rules, stacks with the armor bonus from the plate mail. The issue is whether the +1 enhancement bonus is only in effect when the +8 armor bonus is in effect -- a better example would be if you were wearing +1 leather armor -- as the +2 armor bonus for leather would be overlapped with the +4 armor bonus from the mage armor. The question would be if the +1 enhancement bonus would apply as well ... As far as house rules are concerned ... unless there is a FAQ or Errata that you can point out ... this interpretation potentially more valid than what they are using ... If you can point me to something that backs your position, I would be very pleased ... even if it is a "here is a link to living greyhawk where it says we will be playing this way"How about this question from the 3.5 FAQ?I have a bard in my game who has a bit of money to spend. She buys a set of bracers of armor +3 and a suit of +3 leather armor. If the bard wears both at the same time, the armor bonus from the bracers (+3) overrides the armor bonus from the leather armor (+1). Our question is, does the +3 enhancement bonus from the armor still get applied for a total of +6, is it subsumed by the magic of the bracers, or is it just ignored completely? Since the enhancement bonus and armor bonus are different types of bonuses, the bard thinks her total Armor Class bonus should be +6. The magic leather armor’s +3 enhancement bonus applies to make the armor’s armor bonus bigger (+4 in this case). The example character uses only the larger armor bonus (+4) when wearing both the armor and the bracers. The overlapping +3 bonus from the bracers is still there, however. (It is just irrelevant most of the time.) If something bypasses the +4 bonus from the magic armor, the bracers might still prove effective. For example, an incorporeal touch attack bypasses the whole armor bonus from the magic armor. Since the bracers provide a force effect, they protect the bard against the incorporeal touch attack. The example character still has a +3 armor bonus against the incorporeal touch attack.Seems clear enough. If you are wearing magically enhanced armour and Bracers of Armour, you add the armour's enhancement bonus to the armour's AC bonus to get the total armour bonus delivered by that suit of armour, and compare that to the bracers. The higher one wins. The fact that both the questioner and the answer-writer both managed to get the AC bonus of leather armour wrong does not invalidate the main point.
Meyer_William 07-11-05, 02:13 PM	Thank you.