Acid Arrow, really level 2 spell? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Acid Arrow, really level 2 spell? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Temrek
07-10-05, 10:34 AM (Melfs) Acid arrow, is it really a level 2 spell? I mean it barely does more damage then a magic missile AND requires a ranged touch attack. And it is inferior to scorching ray which is of the same level. If one lowered the damage cap (to caster level 9?) would it fit a first level spell?

And no I am not trying to munchkinize anything, I got this thought when I DMed a session where we had two arcane casters one who used melfs acid arrow as his primary offence and the other scorching ray which vastly outperformed acid arrow.
VirgilCaine
07-10-05, 10:46 AM Just hit a spellcaster with it. Their spells will be disrupted by the damage for a few rounds.
Mind Rogue
07-10-05, 10:46 AM Yes, Acid Arrow (or hydrocloric missile of doom as one of my players likes to call it) is indeed a 2nd level spell.

Acid Arrow does have a couple of things going for it; first off, it is a conjuration and thus can be used by all those illusionists or such who decided to take evocation as a banned school. Second, it does not allow for spell resistance, which both magic missile and scorching ray do. It also has a much longer range than either of these spells. Thirdly, since the damage delt by the acid arrow is continuous, a spellcaster who wishes to cast a spell while under the affect stands a slight chance of botching a concentration check (although higher level characters may be able to pass automatically). Finally, fire is probably the most commonly resisted energy type in the game, although acid may very well be the second most common.

If you still think that Melf's Acid Arrow is underpowered (and not that magic missile and scorching ray are overpowered), then you could always bump the damage up to d6s. Do keep in mind that scorching ray actually splintered off of a 3rd level spell from 3.0 and was balanced to be one option to a third level spell.
VirgilCaine
07-10-05, 10:49 AM If you still think that Melf's Acid Arrow is underpowered (and not that magic missile and scorching ray are overpowered), then you could always bump the damage up to d6s. Do keep in mind that scorching ray actually splintered off of a 3rd level spell from 3.0 and was balanced to be one option to a third level spell.

Jesus, that's where it came from? Flame Arrow? Well, Scorching Ray isn't really a 2nd level spell, IMO. I'd use the bolts options much more than the arrow boosting option.
Mind Rogue
07-10-05, 10:54 AM Yep, in 3.0, the spells that we now know as scorching ray and flame arrow where combined under one spell, then known as flame arrow. Under the revision, they broke the ray off and made it a second level spell, leaving the enhancement half as it's own third level.
Roxlimn
07-10-05, 11:02 AM Well, to its credit, it does Extend rather well. A single extended Melf's Acid Arrow cast at 6th caster level can do 30 points of damage on the average. At the same Mage level, Scorching Ray can only do an average of 14, and as mentioned, Melf's has other advantages as well.
Temrek
07-10-05, 11:02 AM Ok you have convinced me, it guess it was just the players inexperience and mine as well :P
tarkin
07-10-05, 11:06 AM Reasons why Acid Arrow is a fair 2nd level spell.

SR: no.

SR immunity is worth a LOT.

Just making a spell Immune to SR is worth at least one level boost.

The time thing is helpfull against casters, but it is not a huge problem, so is only worth 1/2 a level.
BW0222
07-10-05, 11:56 AM tarkin,

>Reasons why Acid Arrow is a fair 2nd level spell.

Add...

4) A lot more creatures have resistance against fire, lightning, and electrical. Same with rings of fire protection and protection from fire spells. Not many creatures are immune to acid.

5) Unlike magic missile, melf's can target an item. (I.e. someone's unholy symbol, a battle axe, a rope the bad guy is climbing on, a door lock, etc.)

6) Most non-creatures take 1/2 or 1/4 damage from fire, cold, or other energy attacks. The same isn't true with acid. Use melf's against an animate object, golem, door, etc.

7) Melfs allows you to attack creatures without starting fires. For example, if an opponent is trapped in a web spell -- you can melf them without setting them free.
BladeDrinker
07-10-05, 11:02 PM Where are you reading that MAA can target an attended item?
ChaosSaber
07-10-05, 11:51 PM Most spells that can target unattended items can target attended items as well. However; their holders are allowed saving throws as though the spell targetted them personally.
BW0222
07-11-05, 12:03 AM BladeDrinker,

>Where are you reading that MAA can target an attended item?

I didn't say attended item. I just said item. (For holy symbol and battle axe, we assume that they aren't holding it). Unlike magic missile which targets a creature, melf's can target anything.
BladeDrinker
07-11-05, 12:16 AM Most spells that can target unattended items can target attended items as well. However; their holders are allowed saving throws as though the spell targetted them personally.

I'm aware that attended items get to use the saving throw of their holder. (IE, when saving against Mordenkainen's Disjunction.) But I can't find a rule in the PHB or DMG that says you can or cannot target an attended item. I was just wondering how you guys knew the answer.
Talchar
07-11-05, 12:40 AM I'm aware that attended items get to use the saving throw of their holder. (IE, when saving against Mordenkainen's Disjunction.) But I can't find a rule in the PHB or DMG that says you can or cannot target an attended item. I was just wondering how you guys knew the answer.

SRD
Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell
stamhaven
07-11-05, 02:50 AM Most worn or wielded objects will have signifigantly better touch AC's given size modifiers can at worst be equal to the wielding creature's size. This isn't a sunder attempt even though the result may be similar. I don't know if there are rules explicitly saying it but I'd give attended items the same dex/dodge/deflection/insight AC bonuses that the wielder would as well (the can't tell you're not just aiming for center of mass and should still apply).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Temrek 07-10-05, 10:34 AM	(Melfs) Acid arrow, is it really a level 2 spell? I mean it barely does more damage then a magic missile AND requires a ranged touch attack. And it is inferior to scorching ray which is of the same level. If one lowered the damage cap (to caster level 9?) would it fit a first level spell? And no I am not trying to munchkinize anything, I got this thought when I DMed a session where we had two arcane casters one who used melfs acid arrow as his primary offence and the other scorching ray which vastly outperformed acid arrow.
VirgilCaine 07-10-05, 10:46 AM	Just hit a spellcaster with it. Their spells will be disrupted by the damage for a few rounds.
Mind Rogue 07-10-05, 10:46 AM	Yes, Acid Arrow (or hydrocloric missile of doom as one of my players likes to call it) is indeed a 2nd level spell. Acid Arrow does have a couple of things going for it; first off, it is a conjuration and thus can be used by all those illusionists or such who decided to take evocation as a banned school. Second, it does not allow for spell resistance, which both magic missile and scorching ray do. It also has a much longer range than either of these spells. Thirdly, since the damage delt by the acid arrow is continuous, a spellcaster who wishes to cast a spell while under the affect stands a slight chance of botching a concentration check (although higher level characters may be able to pass automatically). Finally, fire is probably the most commonly resisted energy type in the game, although acid may very well be the second most common. If you still think that Melf's Acid Arrow is underpowered (and not that magic missile and scorching ray are overpowered), then you could always bump the damage up to d6s. Do keep in mind that scorching ray actually splintered off of a 3rd level spell from 3.0 and was balanced to be one option to a third level spell.
VirgilCaine 07-10-05, 10:49 AM	If you still think that Melf's Acid Arrow is underpowered (and not that magic missile and scorching ray are overpowered), then you could always bump the damage up to d6s. Do keep in mind that scorching ray actually splintered off of a 3rd level spell from 3.0 and was balanced to be one option to a third level spell. Jesus, that's where it came from? Flame Arrow? Well, Scorching Ray isn't really a 2nd level spell, IMO. I'd use the bolts options much more than the arrow boosting option.
Mind Rogue 07-10-05, 10:54 AM	Yep, in 3.0, the spells that we now know as scorching ray and flame arrow where combined under one spell, then known as flame arrow. Under the revision, they broke the ray off and made it a second level spell, leaving the enhancement half as it's own third level.
Roxlimn 07-10-05, 11:02 AM	Well, to its credit, it does Extend rather well. A single extended Melf's Acid Arrow cast at 6th caster level can do 30 points of damage on the average. At the same Mage level, Scorching Ray can only do an average of 14, and as mentioned, Melf's has other advantages as well.
Temrek 07-10-05, 11:02 AM	Ok you have convinced me, it guess it was just the players inexperience and mine as well :P
tarkin 07-10-05, 11:06 AM	Reasons why Acid Arrow is a fair 2nd level spell. SR: no. SR immunity is worth a LOT. Just making a spell Immune to SR is worth at least one level boost. The time thing is helpfull against casters, but it is not a huge problem, so is only worth 1/2 a level.
BW0222 07-10-05, 11:56 AM	tarkin, >Reasons why Acid Arrow is a fair 2nd level spell. Add... 4) A lot more creatures have resistance against fire, lightning, and electrical. Same with rings of fire protection and protection from fire spells. Not many creatures are immune to acid. 5) Unlike magic missile, melf's can target an item. (I.e. someone's unholy symbol, a battle axe, a rope the bad guy is climbing on, a door lock, etc.) 6) Most non-creatures take 1/2 or 1/4 damage from fire, cold, or other energy attacks. The same isn't true with acid. Use melf's against an animate object, golem, door, etc. 7) Melfs allows you to attack creatures without starting fires. For example, if an opponent is trapped in a web spell -- you can melf them without setting them free.
BladeDrinker 07-10-05, 11:02 PM	Where are you reading that MAA can target an attended item?
ChaosSaber 07-10-05, 11:51 PM	Most spells that can target unattended items can target attended items as well. However; their holders are allowed saving throws as though the spell targetted them personally.
BW0222 07-11-05, 12:03 AM	BladeDrinker, >Where are you reading that MAA can target an attended item? I didn't say attended item. I just said item. (For holy symbol and battle axe, we assume that they aren't holding it). Unlike magic missile which targets a creature, melf's can target anything.
BladeDrinker 07-11-05, 12:16 AM	Most spells that can target unattended items can target attended items as well. However; their holders are allowed saving throws as though the spell targetted them personally. I'm aware that attended items get to use the saving throw of their holder. (IE, when saving against Mordenkainen's Disjunction.) But I can't find a rule in the PHB or DMG that says you can or cannot target an attended item. I was just wondering how you guys knew the answer.
Talchar 07-11-05, 12:40 AM	I'm aware that attended items get to use the saving throw of their holder. (IE, when saving against Mordenkainen's Disjunction.) But I can't find a rule in the PHB or DMG that says you can or cannot target an attended item. I was just wondering how you guys knew the answer. SRD Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell
stamhaven 07-11-05, 02:50 AM	Most worn or wielded objects will have signifigantly better touch AC's given size modifiers can at worst be equal to the wielding creature's size. This isn't a sunder attempt even though the result may be similar. I don't know if there are rules explicitly saying it but I'd give attended items the same dex/dodge/deflection/insight AC bonuses that the wielder would as well (the can't tell you're not just aiming for center of mass and should still apply).