Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kSquared 11-05-04, 08:05 AM	Speaking is a free action that can be done on anyone's turn. Can you set a contingency to go off on the trigger "when I say or attempt to say the word 'farfenzoogle'", effectively enabling you to activate the contingency whenever you want?
hovnarr 11-05-04, 08:20 AM	I think so, but even free actions (I think) can't take place in the middle of another action. So you might not be able to say Farfenzoogle in response to failing a FORT save for poly any, for example. I got this impression from reading Shapechange (you alter form as a free action, but not in the middle of your ordinary action(s)), but it may be a too generalist interpretation.
kSquared 11-05-04, 08:40 AM	That's where I'm confused. The mechanics of combat effectively say that no two actions can ever happen at the same time. Typically you need to ready an action to act just before something happens. But speaking is a free action that lets you speak at any time, even on someone else's turn. Suppose you have protection from energy (fire) prepared in your contingency. A wizard is about to cast fireball, and you make your Spellcraft check. Since the Spellcraft check is made in response to the wizard's casting, could you say farfenzoogle just as you see the casting, thereby rendering yourself immune from the brunt of the damage?
smalo 11-05-04, 08:57 AM	Sorry. The rules are quit clear. You can only take a free action on YOUR turn. But still, if I were the dm I would not allow a triger condition: "when I speak a spesific word". The point is that you should apply the given spell spesific situation. Not like, I want that extra free spell now... Think of better use of the spell: when an enemy wizard cast a lightning-based spell on you, cast protection from electricity, or when you get badly hurt,... or whatever. Can be lots of fun.
Craque 11-05-04, 09:13 AM	Sorry. The rules are quit clear. You can only take a free action on YOUR turn. Not quite true. Speak In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action. The point is that you should apply the given spell spesific situation. Could you please rephrase? The statement as it is right now, is a bit confusing. ksquared, by the RAW, what you want to accomplish is legal, since 1). you can speak outside of your turn 2). contingency's spell description does not exclude spoken words as a trigger condition 3). the situation in which the word farfenzoogle is spoken by you is neither "complicated or convoluted" edit: grammar
kSquared 11-05-04, 09:42 AM	Sorry. The rules are quit clear. You can only take a free action on YOUR turn.Speaking is a specific exception to the rule, as I stated above. (Don't worry; I usually check my sources before I state something I'm not sure about. ;) ) In any case, that's where the source of my confusion is coming from.
smalo 11-05-04, 09:50 AM	" 2). contingency's spell description does not exclude spoken words as a trigger condition" No, you may be correct. But I said IF i were the dm I would rule that you CANNOT use such a trigger condition because it is missuse of the rules. Because it is uberpowergamering. Because I do not like it. Because if people like you keep missusing all spells and rules in the game wizards have to be making a 1000 page players handbook because they will need to write down every small little detail to make sure nothing can be missused etc. etc. Therefor i would say no, and I realy do not care what the wording of the spell is. Because I know what the designers ment when they created the spell. And by the way: Casting a quickend spell is a free action, but you can only do so IN YOUR TURN.
kSquared 11-05-04, 10:09 AM	Because I know what the designers ment when they created the spell.Declaring that you have clairvoyant insight in the minds of the WotC designers is a little presumptuous, don't you think? And by the way: Casting a quickend spell is a free action, but you can only do so IN YOUR TURN.As I stated, speaking is an exception to the rule you keep quoting. And your above statement isn't quite true either: You can cast feather fall with an instant utterance, quickly enough to save yourself if you unexpectedly fall. Casting the spell is a free action, like casting a quickened spell, and it counts toward the normal limit of one quickened spell per round. You may even cast this spell when it isn’t your turn.Feather fall is a spell designed to save your life. So is contingency, which says: In all cases, the contingency immediately brings into effect the companion spell, the latter being “cast” instantaneously when the prescribed circumstances occur.So you can see where my confusion arises: speaking is a free action that can be done out of turn, much like you can cast a quickened spell as a free action. But contingency's even quicker than a free action -- it's "instantaneous", according to the description. Therefore, can you trigger a contingency by speaking the trigger word anytime you want? My interpretation of the RAW is "yes". I'd like to hear what others have to say about it. None of this invalidates smalo's point, which is that allowing this could be dangerous. But it doesn't speak to the question of whether the RAW say you can or can't.
calypso 11-05-04, 10:11 AM	" 2). contingency's spell description does not exclude spoken words as a trigger condition" No, you may be correct. But I said IF i were the dm I would rule that you CANNOT use such a trigger condition because it is missuse of the rules. Because it is uberpowergamering. Because I do not like it. Because if people like you keep missusing all spells and rules in the game wizards have to be making a 1000 page players handbook because they will need to write down every small little detail to make sure nothing can be missused etc. etc. Therefor i would say no, and I realy do not care what the wording of the spell is. Because I know what the designers ment when they created the spell. And by the way: Casting a quickend spell is a free action, but you can only do so IN YOUR TURN. It's not a misuse, geez. And how is that uberpowergaming? You can only have 1 contingency going at a time, and it takes 10 minutes to cast. And you CAN trigger on a spoken word condition. I'm just not sure you can do it before an effect takes place. Like, in the fireball example, I'm not sure you could speak before you're toasted. I suppose you could ready an action though, such that if you see someone casting fireball, you say "farvnagoob" or whatever. Kinda defeats the purpose though. Calypso
hovnarr 11-05-04, 10:15 AM	Hahaha, *laughs merrily* But let's get to abusing spells, shall we. I think that's a really smart way to activate the spell. And it's not like you get to cast ANY spell you want. If that wizard is casting phantasmal killer on you instead of fireball, I'm sure your DM won't mind if you say farfenzoogle a hundred times (infact, maybe he will - it gets sort of annoying after a while). While we're on the topic of contingency, must you set the conditions for the contingent spell as you cast contingency or may you do so when it triggers? In your example, kSquared, must you select the element upon casting? If not, imagine a farfenzoogled Dimension Door. DM: "Here comes a dimensional archor heading straight for you! *rolls dice* It's a hit!" Player: "No, that's a farfenzoogle I'm afraid. I'll return shortly!" Or in this case: DM: "A hydra dropped from the sky and now you're in melee! I'll take my twelve attacks now and your still flatfooted, bwahahaha!" Player: "Farfenzoogle". If you must set the condition, perhaps a cleverly and generally worded destination description would work, such as "the last safe place visited that is furthest away from me" etc.
kSquared 11-05-04, 10:23 AM	In your example, kSquared, must you select the element upon casting?I would say yes. You're not merely storing the contingent spell -- you actually cast it at the time you cast contingency. The spell is erased from your day's spells just as though you'd cast it. So directions for a dimension door would have to either be stated explicitly ("200 feet north, regardless of the circumstances") or given general guidelines ("as far away as possible from the largest monster I can see"). If you must set the condition, perhaps a cleverly and generally worded destination description would work, such as "the last safe place visited that is furthest away from me" etc.Hm. I would actually rule that that's too complicated. "The last safe place" could be in conflict with "furthest away". What if the last safe place you visited was your sanctum, but it's right over the next hill? Or if you'd visited another safe place a while ago, but it's on another continent? The spell wouldn't be able to pick between the two. I'm just not sure you can do it before an effect takes place.That's the question I'm trying to get answered here. ;) Like, in the fireball example, I'm not sure you could speak before you're toasted. I suppose you could ready an action though, such that if you see someone casting fireball, you say "farvnagoob" or whatever. Kinda defeats the purpose though.You could definitely ready an action to do it. The question is whether you need to do so, since by the RAW, you can speak out of turn.
calypso 11-05-04, 10:23 AM	I believe you have to make any choices for the spell when you cast contingency, because you may not be able to make them at the time that it comes into affect. For example, what if you had a trigger that said "If I fall unconcious, cast resist elements." If you don't specify which element at casting, how are you going to do so when you're unconcious? Calypso
hovnarr 11-05-04, 10:42 AM	Hm. I would actually rule that that's too complicated. "The last safe place" could be in conflict with "furthest away". What if the last safe place you visited was your sanctum, but it's right over the next hill? Or if you'd visited another safe place a while ago, but it's on another continent? The spell wouldn't be able to pick between the two. Yes, it's unclear and requires interpretation on the spell's part. Naturally, any place would appear safer than were you are right now. What I'm trying to do is this. Let's say your Dim door has a range of 1000 feet. The path you have crossed to get to the combat your in involved a 100 radius mine field centered on the far end of that 1000 foot range. Your goal is to get as far as way from the combat as possible, but still not end up in an even tighter spot than you're in now. So the destination might be defined as a "a safer place as far away as possible" or something like that. Or does "safer" require to much judgement on the spell? Read the dim door description if you like - it settles for pretty vague "definitions". If you're into reading the fine print of spells, you might want to take a gander at Magic Jar and Rope Trick. I think it's possible to combine the two, as long as the receptacle is outside the Rope Trick... and your body is safe inside.
calypso 11-05-04, 10:46 AM	Yes, it's unclear and requires interpretation on the spell's part. Naturally, any place would appear safer than were you are right now. What I'm trying to do is this. Let's say your Dim door has a range of 1000 feet. The path you have crossed to get to the combat your in involved a 100 radius mine field centered on the far end of that 1000 foot range. Your goal is to get as far as way from the combat as possible, but still not end up in an even tighter spot than you're in now. So the destination might be defined as a "a safer place as far away as possible" or something like that. Or does "safer" require to much judgement on the spell? Read the dim door description if you like - it settles for pretty vague "definitions". I don't think the spell can make ANY judgement calls... for instance, if you said "On trigger X, dim. door me next to a tree." it would just fail, even if there is a tree 50 yards from you. Calypso
tarkin 11-05-04, 11:21 AM	The spell can and does make reasonable judgement calls. What do you think the words "althought they can be general" mean? It means the spell can make judgement calls. The conditions needed to bring the spell into effect must be clear, although they can be general. And it CERTAINLY can be use a condition of "when I say the word "peterpan". The spell has lots of controls on it, but neither "can not be used on some one else's turn" nor "can not make judgement calls" are among them. The limitations are: 1) Spell must affect your person 2) Spell must be of less than or equal to 6th level 3) Spell must be no higher than one-third your caster level 4) Conditions must be clear, 5) Complex/convulated conditions may make the contigency fail. 6) Only one active 7) Spell goes off even if you don't want it to. Teleport to the tree nearest you is not complex/convulated. When I say "c-r-a-p" is not complex/convulated. They are both perfectly legal things to do. ------------------------------ By the very nature of Contigency, it is intended to go off when it is NOT your turn. In fact, Protection from Fire, contigent to go off when someone is casting a fire spell is one of the prime examples of how people use contigency.
kSquared 11-05-04, 11:32 AM	I think everybody would agree that tarkin's points are right. But the question raised is: Can you speak in response to an action? In other words, we all agree that this works: Player: "I cast contingency with protection from elements (fire), with the triggering condition of 'whenever someone casts the fireball spell." [ ... (later that day) ... ] BBEG: "I've got you now! Fireball!" Player: "Ha! My contingency should stop that." DM: "Indeed it does. Your protection from elements absorbs the damage. You have 50 points of immunity until it runs out."And this works too: Player: "I cast contingency with protection from elements (fire), with the triggering condition of 'whenever I say the word 'farfenzoogle'." [ ... (later that day) ... ] BBEG: "I've got you now! Fireball!" Player: "Ow, darnit. 22 points of damage. Even though I've already had my turn this round, I'd better trigger my contingency in case he tries another fire spell. Farfenzoogle!" DM: "Okie doke, your protection's up. 72 points of fire immunity until the spell runs out."But does this work? Player: "I cast contingency with protection from elements (fire), with the triggering condition of 'whenever I say the word 'farfenzoogle'." [ ... (later that day) ... ] BBEG: "I've got you now! Fireball!" Player: "Wait! I roll a Spellcraft check to see what he's casting." (rolls, succeeds) DM: "You manage to recognize his fireball." Player: "Ha! Farfenzoogle! Now he can't get me with the fireball, right?" DM: "Hmm... let's ask the boards!"
Trisstessa 11-05-04, 11:50 AM	I personally feel that contingency is hard to classify as RAW. One of the final sentences of the spell discription gives the DM alot more specified control over the spell then say fireball does. If complicated or convoluted conditions are perscribed, the whole spell combination (contingency and the companion magic) MAY fail when called on. I understand that your question is if the RAW on contingency will let a specific spell go off out of turn on the utterence of a specific word, however the fact that the spell has a condition written into it that may cause it t fail to my mind leaves it up entirely to the DM. For example, in one campaign i was playing an Evoker/Elemental Savant, My contingency was stated as follows When attacked with an energy type that deals damage to me, cast Protection from Energy vs. the attacking energy type. The DM allowed me to have a contingency stated this way. However I took it as understood that he would determine what the definition of attacked was. And my contingency utterly failed at one point because I was attacked by a negative energy attack. It triggered my contingency, but since my protection spell couldn't guard against negative energy it broke down. So in conclusion I will restate my point that the RAW on the spell is extremly hard, in my opinion, to nail down because of the vague language employed in one sentence of the spell description. Not saying I'm right, just stating my opinion. :weep: