Adjudicating illusions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Adjudicating illusions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AgarwaenImmortal
07-26-07, 06:19 AM Greetings!

Ever since the beginnings of 3rd edition (in 2nd, I understood how it worked), I've been having difficulties understanding how to use illusions...

For example, if you use major image to create a 10 ton boulder to fall on your enemy's head, how would it work, rules-wise?

Thanks!
Linkrulesx10
07-26-07, 06:27 AM I am goin to assume you are talking about figments and glamers here, not patterns or shadows.

Main point is that a figment can NEVER result in any damage what so ever, if you conjure rocks over their head they go OMG ROCKS and run, but if they didn't move in time nothing would happen and they would disbelieve the illusion.
AgarwaenImmortal
07-26-07, 06:38 AM I am goin to assume you are talking about figments and glamers here, not patterns or shadows.

Main point is that a figment can NEVER result in any damage what so ever, if you conjure rocks over their head they go OMG ROCKS and run, but if they didn't move in time nothing would happen and they would disbelieve the illusion.

What if it's patterns or shadows?
Linkrulesx10
07-26-07, 06:41 AM Patterns have an exact effect, and they require a save and are mind effecting so do exactly as the spell say, example is Colour spray, that is a pattern I believe.

A shadow spell once again has exact spell effects so do what they say, they leave no real room for interpretation like Figments do, they have exact effects.
Kouk
07-26-07, 06:50 AM Patterns have an exact effect, and they require a save and are mind effecting so do exactly as the spell say, example is Colour spray, that is a pattern I believe.

A shadow spell once again has exact spell effects so do what they say, they leave no real room for interpretation like Figments do, they have exact effects.

Yeah. Shadow spells can often do damage, but you usually offer a save for reduced (or no) damage. Illusion is not really the school you want to deal damage with.

Depending on how stupid you rule certain monsters though, illusions may be more or less effective than they would be on PCs. It may be humorous for a dumb kobold to roll around on the ground to try and "put himself out" after being hit with an illusory fireball, even though it didn't really hurt him.
lukelightning
07-26-07, 09:50 AM I'd say that if they fail the save and believe it's a ginormous boulder falling on them, they run out of the way. If they can't get out of the way I might say they are dazed for a round out of shock and fear.

A better use would be to have a cave-in or landslide to block the enemies.
tarkin
07-26-07, 11:15 AM Typicall non-shadow illusions are barriers. They tend to either provide a form of cover or concealment.

They work very well against low int creatures, such as animals - which INCLUDES the normal horses most people ride on.

The other main use is as a Distraction, to waste people's time and/or limited resources on (i.e. spells).
lukelightning
07-26-07, 01:11 PM The other main use is as a Distraction, to waste people's time and/or limited resources on (i.e. spells).

I like illusions of trolls vs. PCs. They see the trolls and unload all their fireballs and flame strikes. Or an illusion of a rust monster... all the fighters back off and sheath their swords and try to get clubs or other wooden weapons out.

Illusions of incorporeal undead are good too...you can have them appear out of the walls and still be pretty believable.

Then there is the good old "fool me once, fool me twice..." trick. I once had an illusionist make an illusion of the whole party to charging a bunch of frost giants that were across a large ice bridge. The giants threw their boulders at the "adventurers", and then ran up to smash 'em with their clubs, only to discover they were illusions. Then I did it again. They were majorly miffed to disover they were fooled a second time. Then the third time it really was the party. This way we managed to get to them without being smashed by thrown boulders (which would probably have knocked us off the bridge to our dooms).

There was some good "fee fie fo fum" moments while the giants were looking for the source of these illusions.
TheGogmagog
07-26-07, 02:14 PM The ruling of illusions is vague and up to the DM, that said here are my suggestions.

As tarkin said, Illusions are good for barriers, cover, concealment, Ultimatly for wasting an action or two. At best they will resolve an encounter if the barrier appears impassable.

Remember, there is no save unless it's interacted with. This means a standard action (to examine closely), an attack action, or in RARE circumstances a move action. No matter how out of place or how many times you have seen an illusion the save should be active, not reactive. For movement it would either to be walk on or climb an illusory surface that proves illusory. Even if you just watched the rest of your party, it should still take a standard action for you to re-make your save or to follow them through. This would be the opposite of the finding invisible opponents rule.

The Image spells should not generally impose conditions unless the spell description specifies (IMHO). We used to do things like lukelightning said in 2e (don't know if it was RAW or not), but I no longer think it has any place in the 3.5 rules. If you allow reactive saves, then I could see a minor condition (dassled or shaken) but still not something like stunned (no action and drop items).

Finally, the Image spells allow you to create a creature, object or force. In my opintion that means one giant, possibly a swarm of stirges. I would not allow a group of trolls or party members, as I would consider that several images. I wouldn't allow projectile or thrown items that separate from the image.

If you allow automatic/reactive saves upon sight, characters to ignore them without action, no conditions, and only one creature the spells are nearly useless. If you rule the opposite of these the action required saves, conditions like unconsiousness when think they should have died, complex images then they are super powerful. It's up to the DM to find a balance he's comfortable with, good luck.
lukelightning
07-26-07, 02:25 PM Finally, the Image spells allow you to create a creature, object or force. In my opintion that means one giant, possibly a swarm of stirges. I would not allow a group of trolls or party members...

I agree about the multiple images thing, but my "party illusion" was done in first edition which was far more vague than 3rd edition.

I do think you have to be a bit flexible with the "single image" rules. I'd say a rider on horseback should be allowed as long as the rider stays on the horse. I'd allow projectiles as well, though they must remain within the area of the spell. A cave-in of multiple rocks I'd treat as a single image, just as I'd say a figment of a swarm is a single image.
Linkrulesx10
07-26-07, 05:07 PM They actually just have to be connexted so if you can connext your party of trolls with a thin wire that is almost impossible to see you can actually get a group of trolls thata way
ArcTan
07-26-07, 06:34 PM By RAW, an figment or glamer cannot affect anyone *at all*. They can only look and sound and occasionally smell like or give off heat like real things. They can't feel like real things or touch you in any way.

So an illusory boulder might, indeed, scare someone who was looking at it, but if he chose to look at it carefully, or if he ever came in contact with it, he'd get a Will save to disbelieve.

If something happens to prove it isn't real, then he automatically disbelieves, no save. One example of this is falling through an illusory floor or walking through an illusory wall. By the same token, as soon as the illusory boulder "lands" on the guy's head and nothing happens, he automatically disbelieves.
ArcTan
07-26-07, 06:35 PM They actually just have to be connexted so if you can connext your party of trolls with a thin wire that is almost impossible to see you can actually get a group of trolls thata way

There is no rule that you can make multiple creatures "as long as they're connected". Interpreting the rule to be about physical integrity rather than simply the number of creatures is a big stretch.
Daeva
07-26-07, 10:32 PM also, non intelligent/low intelligent, mindles sundead, golems, most animals etc a lot of the times wont bother inspecting an illusion.

If you run down a hall, make a sudden turn down another hall that the golem or undead had walked by 1000000000 times in the last century, including just minutes ago, then make it looked caved, or blocked behind you etc, they will not even get a save, they wont stand and search it, or touch it they will see a caved in wall, and assume you couldnt of gone that way (dont beleive me, read the all about illusions in the rule section of this site)

animals might, after a few rounds of sniffing around and looking around mess with the fake collapse or wall in an attempt to climb or claw at

also, you cna create an illusion and hide in it, and unless the people chasing you are extradinarily familiar with the terrain (liike lived near it for years) while searching for you, wont get a save, maybe if they have like scent or cna follow tracks to the boulder they mihgt lose a few rounds, then MAYBE touch the boulder. meanwhile those hiding in it, can see out it, and fire out of it.

Also if you make an illusion react appropriatly to a stimuli,they wont get a save, this useually only comes into play if your hiding behind or watching them somehow.
Daeva
07-26-07, 10:32 PM The biggest thing is for the DM not to be a prick really, ive retired more than one illusionist because the DM would constantly let everyone make a save as they walked into a room or an area with an illusion, another let people make spot checks against ilusions DC (whihc BTW, made illusions 100% utterly useless) allowed people who made spellcraft checks as i cast them completley ignore them (again made me useless) and other crap, point is, if you as a GM doenst want to bother with illusions, let the players know, instead of making them useless to the point of it.

also, non intelligent/low intelligent, mindles sundead, golems, most animals etc a lot of the times wont bother inspecting an illusion.

If you run down a hall, make a sudden turn down another hall that the golem or undead had walked by 1000000000 times in the last century, including just minutes ago, then make it looked caved, or blocked behind you etc, they will not even get a save, they wont stand and search it, or touch it they will see a caved in wall, and assume you couldnt of gone that way (dont beleive me, read the all about illusions in the rule section of this site)

animals might, after a few rounds of sniffing around and looking around mess with the fake collapse or wall in an attempt to climb or claw at

also, you cna create an illusion and hide in it, and unless the people chasing you are extradinarily familiar with the terrain (liike lived near it for years) while searching for you, wont get a save, maybe if they have like scent or cna follow tracks to the boulder they mihgt lose a few rounds, then MAYBE touch the boulder. meanwhile those hiding in it, can see out it, and fire out of it.

Also if you make an illusion react appropriatly to a stimuli,they wont get a save, this useually only comes into play if your hiding behind or watching them somehow.
DrMorganes
07-26-07, 10:57 PM Greetings!

Ever since the beginnings of 3rd edition (in 2nd, I understood how it worked), I've been having difficulties understanding how to use illusions...

For example, if you use major image to create a 10 ton boulder to fall on your enemy's head, how would it work, rules-wise?

Thanks!

The Rules of the Game Archive deals with just exactly this sort of thing. You'll want to read All About Illusions, Part 1 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060207a), Part 2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060214a), Part 3 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060221a), and Part 4 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060228a). Given the original question, pay special attention to Part 3. Part 4 covers suggestions on how to use illusions effectively.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AgarwaenImmortal 07-26-07, 06:19 AM	Greetings! Ever since the beginnings of 3rd edition (in 2nd, I understood how it worked), I've been having difficulties understanding how to use illusions... For example, if you use major image to create a 10 ton boulder to fall on your enemy's head, how would it work, rules-wise? Thanks!
Linkrulesx10 07-26-07, 06:27 AM	I am goin to assume you are talking about figments and glamers here, not patterns or shadows. Main point is that a figment can NEVER result in any damage what so ever, if you conjure rocks over their head they go OMG ROCKS and run, but if they didn't move in time nothing would happen and they would disbelieve the illusion.
AgarwaenImmortal 07-26-07, 06:38 AM	I am goin to assume you are talking about figments and glamers here, not patterns or shadows. Main point is that a figment can NEVER result in any damage what so ever, if you conjure rocks over their head they go OMG ROCKS and run, but if they didn't move in time nothing would happen and they would disbelieve the illusion. What if it's patterns or shadows?
Linkrulesx10 07-26-07, 06:41 AM	Patterns have an exact effect, and they require a save and are mind effecting so do exactly as the spell say, example is Colour spray, that is a pattern I believe. A shadow spell once again has exact spell effects so do what they say, they leave no real room for interpretation like Figments do, they have exact effects.
Kouk 07-26-07, 06:50 AM	Patterns have an exact effect, and they require a save and are mind effecting so do exactly as the spell say, example is Colour spray, that is a pattern I believe. A shadow spell once again has exact spell effects so do what they say, they leave no real room for interpretation like Figments do, they have exact effects. Yeah. Shadow spells can often do damage, but you usually offer a save for reduced (or no) damage. Illusion is not really the school you want to deal damage with. Depending on how stupid you rule certain monsters though, illusions may be more or less effective than they would be on PCs. It may be humorous for a dumb kobold to roll around on the ground to try and "put himself out" after being hit with an illusory fireball, even though it didn't really hurt him.
lukelightning 07-26-07, 09:50 AM	I'd say that if they fail the save and believe it's a ginormous boulder falling on them, they run out of the way. If they can't get out of the way I might say they are dazed for a round out of shock and fear. A better use would be to have a cave-in or landslide to block the enemies.
tarkin 07-26-07, 11:15 AM	Typicall non-shadow illusions are barriers. They tend to either provide a form of cover or concealment. They work very well against low int creatures, such as animals - which INCLUDES the normal horses most people ride on. The other main use is as a Distraction, to waste people's time and/or limited resources on (i.e. spells).
lukelightning 07-26-07, 01:11 PM	The other main use is as a Distraction, to waste people's time and/or limited resources on (i.e. spells). I like illusions of trolls vs. PCs. They see the trolls and unload all their fireballs and flame strikes. Or an illusion of a rust monster... all the fighters back off and sheath their swords and try to get clubs or other wooden weapons out. Illusions of incorporeal undead are good too...you can have them appear out of the walls and still be pretty believable. Then there is the good old "fool me once, fool me twice..." trick. I once had an illusionist make an illusion of the whole party to charging a bunch of frost giants that were across a large ice bridge. The giants threw their boulders at the "adventurers", and then ran up to smash 'em with their clubs, only to discover they were illusions. Then I did it again. They were majorly miffed to disover they were fooled a second time. Then the third time it really was the party. This way we managed to get to them without being smashed by thrown boulders (which would probably have knocked us off the bridge to our dooms). There was some good "fee fie fo fum" moments while the giants were looking for the source of these illusions.
TheGogmagog 07-26-07, 02:14 PM	The ruling of illusions is vague and up to the DM, that said here are my suggestions. As tarkin said, Illusions are good for barriers, cover, concealment, Ultimatly for wasting an action or two. At best they will resolve an encounter if the barrier appears impassable. Remember, there is no save unless it's interacted with. This means a standard action (to examine closely), an attack action, or in RARE circumstances a move action. No matter how out of place or how many times you have seen an illusion the save should be active, not reactive. For movement it would either to be walk on or climb an illusory surface that proves illusory. Even if you just watched the rest of your party, it should still take a standard action for you to re-make your save or to follow them through. This would be the opposite of the finding invisible opponents rule. The Image spells should not generally impose conditions unless the spell description specifies (IMHO). We used to do things like lukelightning said in 2e (don't know if it was RAW or not), but I no longer think it has any place in the 3.5 rules. If you allow reactive saves, then I could see a minor condition (dassled or shaken) but still not something like stunned (no action and drop items). Finally, the Image spells allow you to create a creature, object or force. In my opintion that means one giant, possibly a swarm of stirges. I would not allow a group of trolls or party members, as I would consider that several images. I wouldn't allow projectile or thrown items that separate from the image. If you allow automatic/reactive saves upon sight, characters to ignore them without action, no conditions, and only one creature the spells are nearly useless. If you rule the opposite of these the action required saves, conditions like unconsiousness when think they should have died, complex images then they are super powerful. It's up to the DM to find a balance he's comfortable with, good luck.
lukelightning 07-26-07, 02:25 PM	Finally, the Image spells allow you to create a creature, object or force. In my opintion that means one giant, possibly a swarm of stirges. I would not allow a group of trolls or party members... I agree about the multiple images thing, but my "party illusion" was done in first edition which was far more vague than 3rd edition. I do think you have to be a bit flexible with the "single image" rules. I'd say a rider on horseback should be allowed as long as the rider stays on the horse. I'd allow projectiles as well, though they must remain within the area of the spell. A cave-in of multiple rocks I'd treat as a single image, just as I'd say a figment of a swarm is a single image.
Linkrulesx10 07-26-07, 05:07 PM	They actually just have to be connexted so if you can connext your party of trolls with a thin wire that is almost impossible to see you can actually get a group of trolls thata way
ArcTan 07-26-07, 06:34 PM	By RAW, an figment or glamer cannot affect anyone at all. They can only look and sound and occasionally smell like or give off heat like real things. They can't feel like real things or touch you in any way. So an illusory boulder might, indeed, scare someone who was looking at it, but if he chose to look at it carefully, or if he ever came in contact with it, he'd get a Will save to disbelieve. If something happens to prove it isn't real, then he automatically disbelieves, no save. One example of this is falling through an illusory floor or walking through an illusory wall. By the same token, as soon as the illusory boulder "lands" on the guy's head and nothing happens, he automatically disbelieves.
ArcTan 07-26-07, 06:35 PM	They actually just have to be connexted so if you can connext your party of trolls with a thin wire that is almost impossible to see you can actually get a group of trolls thata way There is no rule that you can make multiple creatures "as long as they're connected". Interpreting the rule to be about physical integrity rather than simply the number of creatures is a big stretch.
Daeva 07-26-07, 10:32 PM	also, non intelligent/low intelligent, mindles sundead, golems, most animals etc a lot of the times wont bother inspecting an illusion. If you run down a hall, make a sudden turn down another hall that the golem or undead had walked by 1000000000 times in the last century, including just minutes ago, then make it looked caved, or blocked behind you etc, they will not even get a save, they wont stand and search it, or touch it they will see a caved in wall, and assume you couldnt of gone that way (dont beleive me, read the all about illusions in the rule section of this site) animals might, after a few rounds of sniffing around and looking around mess with the fake collapse or wall in an attempt to climb or claw at also, you cna create an illusion and hide in it, and unless the people chasing you are extradinarily familiar with the terrain (liike lived near it for years) while searching for you, wont get a save, maybe if they have like scent or cna follow tracks to the boulder they mihgt lose a few rounds, then MAYBE touch the boulder. meanwhile those hiding in it, can see out it, and fire out of it. Also if you make an illusion react appropriatly to a stimuli,they wont get a save, this useually only comes into play if your hiding behind or watching them somehow.
Daeva 07-26-07, 10:32 PM	The biggest thing is for the DM not to be a prick really, ive retired more than one illusionist because the DM would constantly let everyone make a save as they walked into a room or an area with an illusion, another let people make spot checks against ilusions DC (whihc BTW, made illusions 100% utterly useless) allowed people who made spellcraft checks as i cast them completley ignore them (again made me useless) and other crap, point is, if you as a GM doenst want to bother with illusions, let the players know, instead of making them useless to the point of it. also, non intelligent/low intelligent, mindles sundead, golems, most animals etc a lot of the times wont bother inspecting an illusion. If you run down a hall, make a sudden turn down another hall that the golem or undead had walked by 1000000000 times in the last century, including just minutes ago, then make it looked caved, or blocked behind you etc, they will not even get a save, they wont stand and search it, or touch it they will see a caved in wall, and assume you couldnt of gone that way (dont beleive me, read the all about illusions in the rule section of this site) animals might, after a few rounds of sniffing around and looking around mess with the fake collapse or wall in an attempt to climb or claw at also, you cna create an illusion and hide in it, and unless the people chasing you are extradinarily familiar with the terrain (liike lived near it for years) while searching for you, wont get a save, maybe if they have like scent or cna follow tracks to the boulder they mihgt lose a few rounds, then MAYBE touch the boulder. meanwhile those hiding in it, can see out it, and fire out of it. Also if you make an illusion react appropriatly to a stimuli,they wont get a save, this useually only comes into play if your hiding behind or watching them somehow.
DrMorganes 07-26-07, 10:57 PM	Greetings! Ever since the beginnings of 3rd edition (in 2nd, I understood how it worked), I've been having difficulties understanding how to use illusions... For example, if you use major image to create a 10 ton boulder to fall on your enemy's head, how would it work, rules-wise? Thanks! The Rules of the Game Archive deals with just exactly this sort of thing. You'll want to read All About Illusions, Part 1 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060207a), Part 2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060214a), Part 3 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060221a), and Part 4 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060228a). Given the original question, pay special attention to Part 3. Part 4 covers suggestions on how to use illusions effectively.