Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ante 04-10-05, 06:49 PM	Hi! One of my players wanted to have an amulet that had the spell effect of "cure minor wounds". It was to be triggered when he reached 0 HP. I was afraid it would be more powerful than it sounded, since it would free the party cleric from healing people in the middle of a fight. Now, it didn't do much, but he liked how that unique test item worked and wanted to do a charged amulet of the same effect. Any ideas on pricing? Is it stupid to begin with?
Starmage21 04-10-05, 07:07 PM	not really. unless you were reduced to exactly 0 HPs. Being reduced to -9 HPs and getting hit with 1 HP of of curative something brings you to at least 0, unless you have exactly 0, and it brings you to 1, which is up and fighting. Basically, It would prevent him from somehow failing the DC 24 Fort save and dying because he bled to death. Its a magical auto-stabilizer, and its not that bad of an idea.
Troll-Magus 04-10-05, 07:57 PM	Hi! One of my players wanted to have an amulet that had the spell effect of "cure minor wounds". It was to be triggered when he reached 0 HP. I was afraid it would be more powerful than it sounded, since it would free the party cleric from healing people in the middle of a fight. Now, it didn't do much, but he liked how that unique test item worked and wanted to do a charged amulet of the same effect. Any ideas on pricing? Is it stupid to begin with? IMO it would require the spell Contingency to act as the trigger spell for the CLW to activate.
Razoreface 04-10-05, 08:07 PM	Anything in D&D that goes on If/When is Contingency.. might as well make it Cure Serious. After the Contingency, the addition of a second or third level cure spell wouldn't be a big cost. :) And being cured to exactly 0hp, when you've just fallen down from being attacked means you're in a great position to get killed by the next guy who looks at you. It's less stupid than what I expected the thread to be about, though.
Troll-Magus 04-10-05, 08:17 PM	Anything in D&D that goes on If/When is Contingency.. might as well make it Cure Serious. After the Contingency, the addition of a second or third level cure spell wouldn't be a big cost. :) And being cured to exactly 0hp, when you've just fallen down from being attacked means you're in a great position to get killed by the next guy who looks at you. It's less stupid than what I expected the thread to be about, though. Yep, actually in a high level campaign many of our enemies have had a amulet with Contingency - Heal spell for when their HPs drop below 20. Further backed by a invisible priest with more healing backing up the boss monster - makes for long combats.
Seeker95 04-10-05, 09:19 PM	As long as the item only invokes CMW when the wearer is unconscious, I don't think it is too unbalanced. Going with the contingency-based pricing: 6th level spell x CL 11 x 2000gp = 132000. Throw in the cure minor wounds, and it adds another 11000gp. The high cost of the CMinorW is because the entire item must be created at the same caster level. So, you get an autostabilizer for 143,000gp. For that amount of money, you could afford to contract for 5 true resurrections.
Heironymus_Vann 04-10-05, 10:47 PM	I don't see why it would need contingency... by that reasoning, all magic items would need "contingency: use" or something. I mean, should a ring of featherfall need a "contingency" and cost 100k+ gp? There is an RPGA "Living Greyhawk" scenario that has the exact item for 600gp, which sounds reasonable especially considering that it occupies an amulet slot. HV
snowlynx 04-10-05, 11:04 PM	Why not consider an intelligent amulet with cure moderate wounds 3/day? It's not all that expensive, and by the time the players can afford it, they should be able to have such an ability without it being unbalancing. The disadvantage would be that the intelligent amulet needs to care about the character wearing it, or it's not going to cast the spell.
epifreak 04-11-05, 12:33 AM	As long as the item only invokes CMW when the wearer is unconscious, I don't think it is too unbalanced. Going with the contingency-based pricing: 6th level spell x CL 11 x 2000gp = 132000. Throw in the cure minor wounds, and it adds another 11000gp. The high cost of the CMinorW is because the entire item must be created at the same caster level. So, you get an autostabilizer for 143,000gp. For that amount of money, you could afford to contract for 5 true resurrections. Hmm, by the time you can afford that, the odds of you being reduced to below 0, but not below -10 are pretty slim....... You know, just out of curiosity, what would doing contingency, true ressurrect cost. You could specify that when your heart stops beating, it true ressurrects after 2 rounds. It would probably cost an asston, but it'd be worth it.
IceFractal 04-11-05, 03:57 AM	Magic items don't need the Contingency spell, generally, unless the user can set their own activation conditions. The "use activated" (SL x CL x 2000 gp) pricing covers activating under specific circumstances - although the "command word" pricing wouldn't. Otherwise, a whole bunch of magic items would be a lot more expensive than they are. For just doing what it does, 600 gp is fine. If it used CLW instead and kept healing them till they were above 0, it'd be a little more expensive, and if it cast CMW whenever they were below full health, it'd cost whatever an item of Fast Healing 1 would cost - a bit less than Regeneration 1 is what I'm thinking.
janusthinker 04-11-05, 04:39 AM	What you're looking for already exists, in Magic of Faerun-the Ring of Nine Lives. Each time you're reduced below 0, Heal (13th level) gets cast on you. 9 charges, 70,000 gp.
Nom 04-11-05, 08:23 AM	The critical issue is how often the amulet can fire, and what happens if it triggers and you haven't reached 1 HP or more. A use activated, 1/day cure light wounds when the character reaches 0 hp or below might by default be priced at 1 * 1 * 2000 / 5 = 400 gp. Note that such an item wouldn't assist a character who had been taken beyond -9, and the character would suffer the immediate effects of dropping unconscious (falling down, dropping items in hand) before / as the spell kicked in. If the spell triggered before the character went unconscious, I might price it at 1000gp. It still wouldn't help if he went below -9. Compare to a 1/day free action activated (thus use-activated) aid spell which would cost 3 * 2 * 2000 / 5 = 2400 gp. The effect lasts for 3 minutes, provides +1 (morale) to attack rolls and fear saves, and provides 1d8+3 temp HP, which is more than the CLW item provides. It doesn't have quite the same 'last gasp catch' that the CLW item does, but otherwise is a more potent item if the user is wise.
Psychoray 04-11-05, 09:59 AM	Hmm, by the time you can afford that, the odds of you being reduced to below 0, but not below -10 are pretty slim....... You know, just out of curiosity, what would doing contingency, true ressurrect cost. You could specify that when your heart stops beating, it true ressurrects after 2 rounds. It would probably cost an asston, but it'd be worth it. Awesome idea! Can anyone think up a price for this?
Thelon Fairblade 04-11-05, 10:17 AM	Actually, the contingent aid amulet is much more of a last-gasp item... the HP it grants are *temporary* hp! For the intended auto-stabilize, I would have gone for 2000/2 (cantrip) = 1000. It activates as often as necessary during the day, but only at the defined moment: when the user is below 0 hp *and* not stabilized. It then grants 1 hp of magical curing and stabilizes him. Making 1/day should drop the price to a mere 200 gp; 3/day matches the 600 gp mentioned above. All such prices are fine, IMO.
tarkin 04-11-05, 11:40 AM	Often new game designers think they need the spell Contignecy to create a magic item. That is incorrect. When you make a magic, you declare what triggers the effect. You do NOT need to put the spell contigency in, just to get a trigger besides "command word" and continous. That said, I would base any pricing off the Ring of Nine Lives from Forgotten Realms. Note, I play the Ring of Nine lives (and similar magic items) as being an interupting action (similar to ready). That is if you normally have 80, but are wounded and only have 30 hit points left and someone uses a Maximized fireball for 60 points, you take 30, the ring activates and you get healed up to 80, then you take the remaining 30, and are left with 50 hit points.
Seeker95 04-11-05, 10:39 PM	Often new game designers think they need the spell Contignecy to create a magic item. That is incorrect.This latter statement is incorrect only in that it is a blanket statement that is not universal (as is the case with most blanket statements). Some magic items perform a function "when used". The function is magic, but is not "a spell". Weapons that cause additional energy damage fall into this category. They are "inherently contingent" in that the trigger is anytime the weapons trikes an opponent". Some weapons may have a command word to activate while others may do it all the time. This use activated would certainly not need contingency because the wielder's activity is the trigger. Other magic items activate a spell. In these cases, activation still requires an explicit command by the owner / user. Wands (etc.) are the most obvious example of this, but an amulet of fireballs is another. Most items that begin works as per the XYZ spell fall into this category. If you check through the items in the DMG, most magic items that work like this are either command word activated or use activated, where the "use" is an explicit, intended action on the part of the user. They are not "passive items". A third category of magic items, similar to the second, includes items that activate spells that are inherently "contingent" -- the ring of feather falling is the best example of this. Since the spell description explicitly indicates the contingent condition upon which it works, the magic item carries this same inherent trigger. No need for contingency. A set of wind chimes magically imbued with the alarm spell would also fall into this category. So would a magic mouth based item. The spells these items duplicate or use have inherent "contingent" triggers built into the spell. The fourth category is the one that I would rule indeed do require the use of contingency in their crafting because they have no active trigger -- neither command word nor external "action" and the spell being activated does not contain an inherent conditional trigger in its desciption. The proposed "when my hit points drop below" amulet of autoheal falls into this category. The contingent condition is not one the user can choose to activate. It is neither a command word nor a specific action nor even a "mental desire" for the item to activate. It is a condition. For magic items that are intended to trigger a spell when "condition X" comes into being, and said spell does not contain any reference to a triggering condition, I would rule that such items require the use of contingency in their creation. These conditions (passive conditional trigger of a spell with no trigger in the description) are not likely to be found in very many items, but they are exactly what the contingency spell describes.
VolkorTheRed 04-11-05, 10:57 PM	@ Ante: Maybe on a sidetrack, but there is a spell that does what you want (and is actually better at it ;)): Fortunate Faith from Magic of Faerun. So theoretically it's possible to make an amulet with this spell too.
Nom 04-12-05, 01:23 AM	Actually, the contingent aid amulet is much more of a last-gasp item... the HP it grants are *temporary* hp!You missed my point. I wasn't suggesting contingent aid, just using aid directly. You still get 1d8+ hit points, you just lose them first rather than healing them late in the piece. Unless item prevents the user from dropping to -10 (which is a significantly more powerful ability), the smart way to handle this scenario is to get more hp (ie aid) and disengage before you've lost them all.
Thelon Fairblade 04-12-05, 08:27 AM	Seeker95, your "fourth category" items might require contingency in their creation, but they don't necessarily need contingency in the price. Whether an item requires only skills, a single spell, or a dozen spells plus 5 skills, the price is based on the actual effect (in this case, cure minor wounds). Nom, are you saying your original concept (the aid amulet) was for an item the wearer would spend a standard action to activate, in order to get the d8+ hit points and the various bonuses? Because, sure, that is better while you are up, but doesn't save your life when you go down. and, it costs a standard action. Which is "better"? depends on the situation, of course. But now I understand what you meant (instead of a "once you go down, gain temporary hit points" item, which seems like a mucho-bad idea).
Nom 04-12-05, 09:34 AM	Actually, the pricing I suggested was for triggering as a free action, give or take. Ultimately, a true "last gasp healing" amulet is actually a very dangerous piece of equipment, as it encourages fighting to the last hit point and trusting in this "magic buffer" to save you. The only time a wise character would allow this item to come into play is if they were unlucky enough to be struck by a single large attack that knocked them negative but not far enough to kill them. At 1st or 2nd level this is fairly likely, but they won't be able to afford the 1000-2000 gp price tag. Beyond this, judicious use of aid spells and learning to run away sooner rather than later will serve them far better.
Sproik 04-12-05, 09:52 AM	The fourth category is the one that I would rule indeed do require the use of contingency in their crafting because they have no active trigger -- neither command word nor external "action" and the spell being activated does not contain an inherent conditional trigger in its desciption. The proposed "when my hit points drop below" amulet of autoheal falls into this category. The contingent condition is not one the user can choose to activate. It is neither a command word nor a specific action nor even a "mental desire" for the item to activate. It is a condition. Seems reasonable. But would it not also be reasonable to make a spell that lasts a round a level and cures you of 1 hit point if you are reduced to zero or less? You could then use that as your spell that has the contingency inherent in the wording... and a low level spell it would be, compared to contingency!
Seeker95 04-12-05, 02:28 PM	But would it not also be reasonable to make a spell that lasts a round a level and cures you of 1 hit point if you are reduced to zero or less?You could... but I would also require that such a spell be personal (eliminating potions, etc.) It would also be pretty high level, since it is not directly channeling curative energy, but rather, it is storing it until a set of conditions are met.
epifreak 04-12-05, 02:34 PM	Actually, the pricing I suggested was for triggering as a free action, give or take. Ultimately, a true "last gasp healing" amulet is actually a very dangerous piece of equipment, as it encourages fighting to the last hit point and trusting in this "magic buffer" to save you. The only time a wise character would allow this item to come into play is if they were unlucky enough to be struck by a single large attack that knocked them negative but not far enough to kill them. At 1st or 2nd level this is fairly likely, but they won't be able to afford the 1000-2000 gp price tag. Beyond this, judicious use of aid spells and learning to run away sooner rather than later will serve them far better. Or, you could wait until a much higer (and more wealthy) level, and create an amulet: contingency, true resurrect: When you die (drop below -10 HP) this amulet throws true resurrect on you after 1d6 rounds. (probably would have limited charges, but seems rather................kickass!)
primemover003 04-12-05, 03:36 PM	@ Ante: Maybe on a sidetrack, but there is a spell that does what you want (and is actually better at it ;)): Fortunate Faith from Magic of Faerun. So theoretically it's possible to make an amulet with this spell too. Great spell... if you get hit with enought to kill ya (or is just into the negatives?) you get an Automatic Heal. Great Spell. IM last C, the cleric would drop Fourtunate Faith on the Dwarven Frenzied Berserker before facing the BBEG's.