Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sken Dingle 02-19-04, 12:22 PM	I recently had a wizard cast persistant image. She made the illusion of conjuring a mass of small dragons. Now other than being a distraction and possibly losing a turn preparing for the supposed dragons, the spell, to my knowledge should have no other affect on the bad guy. A will save for disbelief does not occur unless in direct contact, so the opponent believed that she conjured dragons. But then the wizard was looking for something else, like some kind of fear or penalty for seeing a bunch of dragons coming at him. I ruled that since there is nothing specific giving parameters to what the illusion does before interaction that he just prepared to meet the "dragons" head on. How would this be ruled? Can a believed illusion have some sort of game affect that would penalize the opponent? Is there a role to see if the opponent even sees or aknowledges the illusion, so as to at least have a distracting effect? If not how can the illusions be used effectively in this way, other than the typical putting an illusionary floor over an open pit? Thank you for your help.
meabolex 02-19-04, 12:46 PM	Originally posted by Sken Dingle How would this be ruled? Can a believed illusion have some sort of game affect that would penalize the opponent? Is there a role to see if the opponent even sees or aknowledges the illusion, so as to at least have a distracting effect? If not how can the illusions be used effectively in this way, other than the typical putting an illusionary floor over an open pit? I've had a gnomish illusionist before, so I'll basically go into what I've found. First, illusions are primarily a distraction. They have an AC of 10 + size modifier, so they'll basically be gone if they're hit. Major image has the text: The image disappears when struck by an opponent unless you cause the illusion to react appropriately. So, I assume that minor image and silent images are destroyed if hit, regardless of your concentration. I would probably rule that as long as you concentrate and observe the combat, you can make the image react appropriately to being hit. Anyway, on to your questions: The issue with the dragon is fascinating. . . one I've never really thought of before. Frightful Presence is an extrordinary ability, which means that it's non-magical. The mere presence of the dragons seems enough to make the fear effect. I'd say that only a major image spell or higher could duplicate all the effects of the frightful presence. If it were supernatural, I'd agree with you. But after reading frightful presence, reading the descriptions for illusions, and reading the various spells, I'm tempted to side with the said wizard on this one. However, to be fair, I'd call the frightful presense interacting with the dragon, which calls for a will save, not against the DC of the dragon's frightful presense, but against the DC of disbelieving the illusion. If the character failed that will save, THEN I'd have the character roll the will save for the frightful presence. An interesting example, BTW. I'd probably give it to the wizard who was smart enough to come up with such a novel combat idea.
Luminous Crayon 02-19-04, 12:47 PM	It's really a roleplaying thing, more than a numerical thing. There's no -2 morale penalty for suddenly being confronted with unexpected dragons, if that's what you're looking for. However, the baddie should, assuming he is convinced the dragons are really there, adjust his tactics accordingly. He will probably become more cautions, possibly splitting his attention and attacks between the PCs and the draconic threat, or even fleeing, if he thinks the odds are steep against him. More than anything, it's up to the DM to stick to the bad guy's personality and mode of operations, and think: "Okay, so Vlad the Vindictive suddenly sees a bunch of dragons in addition to his previous foe... how would he react to that?" That's why something like dragons isn't the best choice for an Image spell. Likely as not, the enemy is going to try to hit one and see what happens, and as soon as that attack sails through empty space where a dragon is supposed to be, or as soon as that magic missile fails to connect, the game is up. Depending on DM interpretation, this may be a Will save, a Will save with a significant bonus, or "incontrovertible proof" that the image is not real (a Will save with automatic success.) This is not a good thing for the Image caster. The best way to avoid this is to create illusions that the enemy will not, under any circumstances, want to mess with-- if they don't interact with the image, they can't possibly save. (I like to use a barrier of thorny brambles dripping with hazarous-looking green goo... nobody wants to touch that stuff.) You can't effectively attack an enemy with illusory creatures, but you can easily control the shape of the battlefield.
meabolex 02-19-04, 01:00 PM	As an additional aside to my comments above: * If anyone beats the will(disbelief) for the image spell, everyone gets an automatic saving throw vs. the illusion DC - 4. If they pass, they're no longer affected by the Frightful Presence. * Your teammates are subject to this effect. If you warn them in advance, they get a +4 to their saving throw, but that's about it. If they fail, they're still frightened. * Since this is a persistant image, you can't make the illusion react to being hit (unless you're concentrating on maintaining the illusion). So, I'd say a single hit will destroy the dragons.
adiaven 02-19-04, 01:41 PM	a single hit will not destroy a persistant image. it will right through it. this is not silent, minor or major image. this is persistant image.... think of it like a permenant hologram.
meabolex 02-19-04, 01:45 PM	Originally posted by adiaven a single hit will not destroy a persistant image. it will right through it. this is not silent, minor or major image. this is persistant image.... think of it like a permenant hologram. It's "as silent image" except yadda yadda -- which is basically a scripted major image spell with a higher DC. It says in major image that if you hit the image, it'll disappear. I assume that the higher level spells work the same way unless said otherwise. However, since it doesn't repeat the same text over and over (probably for editing reasons), I'd probably say it does disappear if not being concentrated on.
Everach 02-19-04, 02:15 PM	Originally posted by Sken Dingle How would this be ruled? Can a believed illusion have some sort of game affect that would penalize the opponent? Use of Simple Illusion and related spells can provide a enchantment bonus of +10 per spell level (up to +30) to an appropriate Cha-based skill of the caster's choice. (House rule, not official, but in line with other spells). Simple Illusion to create a flock of dragons? Make a bluff check at +10. Hope that helps.
meabolex 02-19-04, 02:31 PM	Originally posted by Everach Simple Illusion to create a flock of dragons? Make a bluff check at +10. Hope that helps. My problem with this is that bluff isn't a magical effect. Illusion(figment) works even on undead. This effect is so real that you have to make a will save to disbelieve it. Bluff is used to distort the motives of characters (and some applications in combat). Bluff doesn't actually compel you to think something is true. You just get the idea from the bluffing individual that he's being honest. An illusion is far more powerful and dangerous. You are basically creating a figment in midair that everyone can see. I think a properly used illusion can give a bonus on a bluff attempt. But I wouldn't make illusions based on bluff.
adiaven 02-19-04, 02:55 PM	Originally posted by meabolex It's "as silent image" except yadda yadda -- which is basically a scripted major image spell with a higher DC. It says in major image that if you hit the image, it'll disappear. I assume that the higher level spells work the same way unless said otherwise. However, since it doesn't repeat the same text over and over (probably for editing reasons), I'd probably say it does disappear if not being concentrated on. Actually it says: "It's as silent image except ...yadda yadda... and it is permanent." Also Duration Permanent (D) That means (to me atleast) that a swipe does not make it go away.
meabolex 02-19-04, 03:38 PM	Persistant image is the spell we're talking about. It has a duration of 1 minute/level. It's like this in 3.0 and 3.5. . . Persistent Image Illusion (Figment) Level: Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 5 Duration: 1 min./level (D) This spell functions like silent image, except that the figment includes visual, auditory, olfactory, and thermal components, and the figment follows a script determined by you. The figment follows that script without your having to concentrate on it. The illusion can include intelligible speech if you wish. Material Component: A bit of fleece and several grains of sand.
Everach 02-19-04, 03:46 PM	Originally posted by meabolex An illusion is far more powerful and dangerous. You are basically creating a figment in midair that everyone can see. I think a properly used illusion can give a bonus on a bluff attempt. But I wouldn't make illusions based on bluff. But until Wizards of the Coast CLEARLY defines what an illusion can and cannot do with a series of exhausted examples, using illusions to emulate and modify social skills is the closest thing I can think of for a guideline. I've never seen an illusion spell used because noone knows how. And I've been playing for 20 years.
meabolex 02-19-04, 03:51 PM	But that is interesting about permanent image. . . will it disappear if a weapon goes through it or not? It's certainly not mentioned in the spell description. Hmmmmm. . . I think after thinking it over, that the sword would go through the higher level illusion spells. Illusory wall is the basis for my reasoning. It allows objects to pass through it with no problem. Therefore, I'd allow the persistant image and permanent image to function similarly. They'd be fairly annoying to NPCs in combat. . . oh well (:
meabolex 02-19-04, 03:54 PM	Originally posted by Everach But until Wizards of the Coast CLEARLY defines what an illusion can and cannot do with a series of exhausted examples, using illusions to emulate and modify social skills is the closest thing I can think of for a guideline. I agree. We have to just guess at the level of power. In real life, a gnomish illusionist in a military would be insanely powerful. Enemy military leadership would have NO idea what the heck is going on. . . But in D&D, the abilities seem vague. Major illusion mentions the hitting = gone clause, but persistant and permanent do not. . . Yeah, I was kinda disappointed they didn't clean that up in 3.5. Well, maybe in the FAQs. . .
TheGogmagog 02-19-04, 04:03 PM	If you are using Persistant image and its interacted without concentration on the reation it's gone. If using Permanent, it stays, however with no effect on the observers. If everyone sees that it is an illusion, they can then ignore it. How to rule the effects of illusions however is something I would like to see more on, with examples. In a 2nd edition campaign my DM ruled you cant create more HD in monsters than you have. He also had that instant death illusions (with failed save) like a falling cieling, could render the victim unconcious. These seem like good guidlines, but I havent seen much to back those up. One thing I have seen written in 3.5 (or maybe 3.0) is that you should use other spells of the same level as guidlines for the capabilities. For example, if the dragons were created to inspire fear, look for spells of the spell level which have similar effects. I would rule that would count as an interaction allowing the save vs image, and the save vs fear. This in the end makes illusions more versitle than the other spell, but less effective.
adiaven 02-19-04, 04:16 PM	yup, I mixed up persistant image and permanent image. whoops up to the DM if a persistant image would disapear or not. The spell says it follows a script, and disapearing when touched is usually not in the script....
olshanski_home 02-19-04, 04:29 PM	Originally posted by Everach But until Wizards of the Coast CLEARLY defines what an illusion can and cannot do with a series of exhausted examples, using illusions to emulate and modify social skills is the closest thing I can think of for a guideline. {Edit: I forgot why I quoted this in the first place... its because I'd much rather see exhaustive examples, rather than tired, exhausted examples} Silent image (and other image spells): "This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you. " Note that it says "a creature" not "creatures". An illusion has NO other ability other than the fact that it is an illusion... it relies on the viewer to do their own harm to themselves... a vat of acid could be covered with the illusion of a comfortable bed... if the person lies down, they get hurt, and the illusion is pretty much immediately disbelieved. An illusionary hellhound can breathe fire, but the fire does not do fire damage. An illusionary basilisk does not turn people to stone, etc. I think that the "persistant" part of the spell refers to its ability to work even after the caster ceases concentrating... it does not refer to the fact that it is "persistant" after being dispelled or after being interrupted.
meabolex 02-19-04, 04:33 PM	Originally posted by olshanski_home An illusion has NO other ability other than the fact that it is an illusion... it relies on the viewer to do their own harm to themselves... The multiple creatures thing is a good point. But what about the dragon's Frightful Presence? Surely an ability that works just by the dragon's mere appearance would work on PCs? What about the fact that it's non-magical?
olshanski_home 02-19-04, 08:40 PM	There are 2 reasons why Frightful Presense doesn't work with an illusion: 1. It is not the sight of the dragon which is terrifying, it is the presence of the dragon. The aura, the mojo, call it what you will. A blind creature can still be terrified of the dragon's presence. Since with an illusion, there is no actual dragon present... there can be no frightful presence. (Otherwise, it might have been called "Frightful Appearance") 2. Even if you say that the sight of the dragon is what causes the terror... that it is some sort of visual only effect... it is still an effect which a dragon can turn on or off. Since it can be turned off... I think it sort of has to be turned off for purposes of figuring out what an illusion can do. Otherwise you'd have illusionary basilisks and medusas turning people to stone, illusionary bodaks killing people... etc... for that mater, some of the illusions have auditory components... In that case how about the illusionary baying of a shadow mastiff, the illusionary wail of a banshee (look up the 9th level spell).. etc.
Luminous Crayon 02-19-04, 10:40 PM	Originally posted by meabolex The multiple creatures thing is a good point. But what about the dragon's Frightful Presence? Surely an ability that works just by the dragon's mere appearance would work on PCs? What about the fact that it's non-magical? What about the fact that it's not actually there?
meabolex 02-20-04, 09:04 AM	Originally posted by Luminous Crayon What about the fact that it's not actually there? How do the PCs know?
meabolex 02-20-04, 09:11 AM	Originally posted by olshanski_home There are 2 reasons why Frightful Presense doesn't work with an illusion: 1. It is not the sight of the dragon which is terrifying, it is the presence of the dragon. The aura, the mojo, call it what you will. A blind creature can still be terrified of the dragon's presence. Since with an illusion, there is no actual dragon present... there can be no frightful presence. (Otherwise, it might have been called "Frightful Appearance") 2. Even if you say that the sight of the dragon is what causes the terror... that it is some sort of visual only effect... it is still an effect which a dragon can turn on or off. Since it can be turned off... I think it sort of has to be turned off for purposes of figuring out what an illusion can do. Otherwise you'd have illusionary basilisks and medusas turning people to stone, illusionary bodaks killing people... etc... for that mater, some of the illusions have auditory components... In that case how about the illusionary baying of a shadow mastiff, the illusionary wail of a banshee (look up the 9th level spell).. etc. It isn't an aura or mojo or what you will. There effectively *IS* a dragon present as far as the PCs are concerned. The frightful presence is simply the dragon's mere presence, not some supernatural or spell-like ability. With the major image spell, you can replicate every aspect of the dragons presence. The low roaring, the heat from it's breath, the sound of it's scale shifting, the sound of it's body shifting. How, as PCs, would you POSSIBLY know that the dragon was there unless you knew it was an illusion? The same argument holds with an illusionary floor. If you don't stop to really check it out, you can't tell the difference. A spellcraft check or some other method could determine the illusion as it was cast. But against creatures without spellcraft, they wouldn't know the difference. If it was a supernatural or spell-like ability, I wouldn't argue. But the fact that it's merely a property of the dragon's presence makes a big case for illusions having that capability. I've had at least one person suggest that the frightful presence doesn't even count as interaction for will (disbelief). They see the dragon, they see the flames, they see the scales, they see the massive creature moving, and they run.
Luminous Crayon 02-20-04, 11:18 AM	Originally posted by meabolex How do the PCs know? Doesn't matter. Sure, it's likely that the sudden appearance of a dragon will make them scared, and they may turn and get the heck out of the way. But there's absolutely no grounds to call for a Will save against a dragon's Frightful Presence when there's no actual dragon around. An illusory dragon's claws, breath weapon, and spell-like abilities don't work, and the only Will save they elicit is a Will save for characters to recognise that the whole thing is a trick. Frightful Presence is no different. Tangentially related, I've always disliked Frightful Presence. Characters shouldn't be afraid of a dragon because they fail a Will save; they should be afraid because it's a freaking dragon and it's about to kill and eat them.
meabolex 02-20-04, 11:36 AM	Originally posted by Luminous Crayon Doesn't matter. Crayon, you bring up vaild points. Illusions cannot deal any damage. They do not possess spell-like or supernatural abilities. But the PCs don't know that an actual dragon isn't around. To assume that a dragon isn't around is like saying the illusion doesn't exist. While you are correct in stating that Frightful Presence is perhaps poorly worded and inappropriately defined, it is currently defined as merely a property of the dragon's physical appearance. And the PCs cannot distinguish a dragon's physical appearance from an illusion's physical appearance (without a proper save). I'm willing to allow the Frightful Presence ability to be considered interaction (and thus make a will save against the illusion spell). However, to say that the dragon doesn't have a frightful presence is basically saying "there is no dragon" to who ever is watching the illusion -- completely negating the entire point of the spell.
Shadowfax7 02-20-04, 11:47 AM	Illusions are about deception . . . Illusion of Dragon cast by NPC = DM has PCs roll Will saves for frightful presence, BUT no one gets affected :smirk: Thus DM casts the illusion of the "fake save" to fortify the deception of the illusion cast by a NPC.
Luminous Crayon 02-20-04, 11:51 AM	Originally posted by meabolex However, to say that the dragon doesn't have a frightful presence is basically saying "there is no dragon" to who ever is watching the illusion -- completely negating the entire point of the spell. Ooh, now there's a good point. I can think of a few ways to deal with it, though. - If your players (or their characters) aren't old hands at dealing with dragons, they may not expect to have to make saves against Frightful Presence, and may not know anything is unusual. - If the illusory dragon is far enough away that the players can assume they're out of range of Frightful Presence, they likewise may not know anything is unusual. - You could play all dragons-- real ones and illusory ones alike-- without Frightful Presence. This is what I do anyway, for reasons explained in my previous post. - You could call for fake saves against the "dragon's" Frightfurl Presence, and then just tell the PCs that they succeed. Roll behind a screen so that the poor schmuck who rolls a 1 on a save against a nonexistant effect doesn't ruin the effect. Or, my personal favorite... - You could just have your NPC illusion-users not choose an illusion of a creature whose effects can't be emulated by an "Image" spell, and is therefore obviously a fake creature and not a real creature. You'd think those high-Int wizards would catch on, wouldn't you? This is why we also don't make Silent Image walls of fire-- Silent Image can't reproduce the heat or the crackling sounds of a blazing inferno, so it would be obviously fake. Your milage may vary, of course, but I'd rather use any of the above options than give the Frightful Presence ability to any spellcaster canny enough to make illusory dragons. And now, I go to class. Good day.
meabolex 02-20-04, 11:53 AM	Originally posted by Shadowfax7 Illusion of Dragon cast by NPC = DM has PCs roll Will saves for frightful presence, BUT no one gets affected :smirk: Given the DC 37 will save for a Great Wyrm Bronze Dragon's frightful presence (gargantuan size), I don't think everyone would save (: I can just hear the DM now. . . "You see a giant dragon flying at you, however, you strangely don't feel afraid because it's not really a dragon" :bored:
olshanski_home 02-21-04, 01:04 AM	Meabolex. Would you allow a gnome illusionist to sustain a city through a long siege by creating illusions of food and water? Because, according to your definition, there effectively *IS* food and water as far as the peasants of the city are concerned. How long can illusionary food sustain them... a few days? a few weeks? or years? I believe that illusionary food does not sustain them becuase there is no actual food present. Likewise, there is no actual dragon present when you create the illusion of a dragon... that means no actual breath weapon (SU), no bite attack, no claw attack, and no frightful presence (EX). Or perhaps you are the type of DM that allows an illusion of an delayed blast fireball to actually do damage if the save is failed? I could picture a scenario where people have an option of fighting an illusionary dragon, or jumping off of a 80 foot cliff into an underground river.... In that case, the illusion has done its job by tricking people into running away, or inflicting harm on themselves. Sure, people can become afraid of the illusion, but it not the same kind of fear that a true great wyrm can strike into the hearts of 15th level fighters. The truly effective illusions are not the gigantic fire-breathing dragons, or the illusions of a 1 mile tall tidal wave crushing everything... The real effective illusions are the illusion of rope-and-plank bridge still crossing the chasm (after you've cut the ropes)... The illusion of the mug of ale over the the vial of acid... or the illusion of the strange silent black sphere, 3-feet in diameter which doesn't seem to be doing anything in particular.
CrippleMrOnion 02-21-04, 03:22 AM	I think a lot of you, whether you want to admit it or not, are following the letter of the law, not the spirit of the law. Fine. The dragon is not there. However, the argument meabolex is making and the counterarguments that others are making have nothing to do with one another. The reason a dragon is scary is because it is a large, dangerous, often-gossiped-about monster. That's why it's an (ex) and not a (Su) or (Sp). With a major or better image, the noise, the thermal conditions, seismic movement (if it walks), wind blasts (from the wings beating), etc. are there. Whether your blind or not is irrelevant. The kids in the car in Jurassic Park may have been blind.... they still would have known that something BIG was right outside from the car shaking, the snorting, and the heat from the breath. And they still would have been afraid. If it looks like a dragon, smells like a dragon, is hot like a dragon, stomps like a dragon, beats its wings like a dragon, and roars like a dragon, then guess what: people are going to react to it the same way they react to a dragon. Dragons can turn it on and off; they can be intimidating, or they can be calm and composed and not intimidating. Similarly, an image that has ALL the sensory capabilities of a dragon can be intimidating, or it can "turn it off." I agree with Crayon that the whole idea of frightful presence is stupid (in so many words). However, the point of this debate is something entirely different.
olshanski_home 02-21-04, 11:18 AM	Ok, lets look at the spirit of the rules rather than the letter. General purpose spells (like wish, limited wish, etc), can be used to duplicate lower level spells, but not higher level spells. If you allow a 3rd level "Greater Image" illusion of a dragon to make creatures afraid, (DC 37 will save for a Great Wyrm Bronze Dragon), that is FAR more powerful than a spell should be: Compare it to the 6th level spell Symbol of Fear (which will have an average DC of 21-22. (assuming fairly regular stats and spell focus Necromancy). If want to give the dragon's frightful presence real power, you should allow an automatic will save to disbelieve the illusion, perhaps at +4 or more, and a second will save at +4 if ANYONE communicates to you that it is an illusion.
olshanski_home 02-21-04, 11:19 AM	Ok, lets look at the spirit of the rules rather than the letter. General purpose spells (like wish, limited wish, etc), can be used to duplicate lower level spells, but not higher level spells. If you allow a 3rd level "Greater Image" illusion of a dragon to make creatures afraid, (DC 37 will save for a Great Wyrm Bronze Dragon), that is FAR more powerful than a spell should be: Compare it to the 6th level spell Symbol of Fear (which will have an average DC of 21-22. (assuming fairly regular stats and spell focus Necromancy). There is no way a general purpose 3rd level spell should surpass a 6th level spell.
Luminous Crayon 02-21-04, 11:35 AM	Originally posted by CrippleMrOnion The reason a dragon is scary is because it is a large, dangerous, often-gossiped-about monster. That's why it's an (ex) and not a (Su) or (Sp). .... If it looks like a dragon, smells like a dragon, is hot like a dragon, stomps like a dragon, beats its wings like a dragon, and roars like a dragon, then guess what: people are going to react to it the same way they react to a dragon. Bad logic. Sure, dragons are scary. Of course they're scary. But there are more scary things in DnD than I can count, and only dragons have Frightful Presence. Is a dragon really that much scarier than an elder elemental, an lich, or a tarrasque? (Note that I'm not even talking about a Great Wyrm dragon, or any dragon of even close to equivalent CR; I'm talking about a dragon of the youngest possible age at which Frightful Presence is available. I think it's Young Adult, but I don't have my books here right now.) The only sensible way to interpret Frightful Presence is as something more than just typical intimidating scariness... unless of course you want to tell me that a dragon is the only scary thing in the entire game. PCs are going to run away from scary things from time to time, unless they're remarkably brave and/or stupid. They should run away from scary things; otherwise their life expectancy will be brief and crunchy. What they should not have to do is make Will saves to determine whether or not something is scary... except, of course, in the case of a magical or otherwise unusual effect, like a Cause Fear spell. If I make a Major Image of the bogeyman, do the PCs have to make a Will save or run away?
CrippleMrOnion 02-21-04, 11:53 AM	Olshanki-- I agree with the will save before the frightful presence; I thought meabolex had already covered that. A will save is allowed for ANY interaction--seeing the dragon and starting to get afraid is enough of an interaction for me. Will save first, then, if you fail, frightful presence. Still Frightful presence, though. Crayon-- First off...I see you like to use a lot of loaded language in your posts. That's fine, if that's what you need to do to make your point. Whether it's "bad logic" or "the only sensible way," is mostly your opinion. I've already agreed with you that frightful presence overall is a Bad Idea, but that's not what the thread is about. Our discussion is supposed to be dealing with whether the Image would have said ability or not. You don't seem to address this at all, but instead rant about how much you don't like frightful presence. Since I've already agreed with you, I have to assume that you just really like to rant. That's not a complaint, we all like to rant from time to time, but if you're going to assault me for "bad logic," then at least make some argument dealing with the topic at hand. Oh, and I don't know if a bogeyman would require a will save until I read the monsters entry. I seem to have overlooked it in the monster manual... how clumsy of me............
Luminous Crayon 02-21-04, 12:13 PM	Loaded language? My apologies. I'm not trying to stir up trouble. However, if you take the time to read my most recent post, you'll see that it's not what you seem to think it is. In summary, if you're going to use Frightful Presence and assume that it's just a way to represent the fact that dragons are scary, nothing more, then we'd have to assume that nothing else in the game is scary, because nothing else in the game has the Frightful Presence ability. Clearly this is not the case, as there are lots of things in DnD that are scary, despite theor lack of a Frightful Presence ability. So we must conclude that our assumption that Frightful Presence represents the fact that dragons are scary, nothing more, is an incorrect assumption. Therefore, the practice of giving Frightful Presence to anything that's scary, whether it's an illusory dragon, Freddy Krueger, or the eternal mother-in-law, makes no sense. So my label of bad logic is not intended to be a personal barb or anything of the sort. However, the majority of the logic I've seen so far on this thread is, in fact, rather bad. Still, if you want to see my allegeded "ranting", yo'll have to look several posts farther back. Perhaps the reason you didn't see any argument dealing with the subject at hand is that you didn't actually read what I wrote.
Beamup 02-21-04, 12:34 PM	Keep in mind that an illusionist can't just say, "I want to create the illusion of a dragon" and then something that looks just like a dragon appears. They have to form the image, sound, etc. they want to create in their mind first. What does that mean? - They can't create anything that really looks like a dragon unless they've seen one (either live or in a painting). - They can't create a really GOOD dragon image unless they know exactly how it should look, sound, etc. If they've fought one, or observed one extensively, fine. - Therefore they definitely can't duplicate Frightful Presence unless they know so much about dragons that they can perfectly reproduce all the aspects of the dragon that contribute to the Presence (and possibly not even then). - AND they would have to not only know all that, they'd have to remember it all and get it all into their mental picture that they make into the illusion. So, I definitely wouldn't allow Frightful Presence from an illusionary dragon unless the illusionist knows dragons really well, either from very close and extensive personal experience or a very high Knowledge(Arcana) check. Probably not even then unless the illusionist had extensively studied the Frightful Presence ability so they knew just what produced it. Also, creating something like a dragon should probably call for Knowledge(Arcana) checks from anyone who sees it - if they beat the illusionist's knowledge of dragons (DC determined by the DM) then they notice something's not quite right and would get a bonus on any Will save to disbelieve. If you don't enforce the limits imposed by the fact that the illusionist has to form the illusion in their mind, so they have to KNOW how whatever it is they what should look/sound/etc., the illusions stop making sense pretty quickly. This is one example of that.
olshanski_home 02-21-04, 02:57 PM	Nitpick: Knowledge (Arcana) is the field which deals with dragons.
Beamup 02-21-04, 03:00 PM	Really? *Checks PHB* So it is. My bad.
meabolex 02-23-04, 01:19 PM	Well, I thought maybe I could resolve this issue by using WotC custserv. I know a lot of you guys don't like custserv, but they're readily available and right most of the time. Here's their response: Frightful presence is caused by the presence of the dragon rather than magic or any action the dragon might be taking, is duplicated when you use major image to create a dragon. If the image of the dragon is in the air, the PCs have no way of touching it or otherwise interracting with it. Frightful presence can be considered a side-effect of being in the presence of a creature so massive, but it is not the same as directly interracting with it. **Please quote this e-mail in any reply.** ********************************* Darrin Wizards of the Coast - Customer Service Website: http://www.wizards.com Game Support Phone: 1-800-324-6496 Monday through Friday, 9 AM - 7 PM PST Corporate Phone: (425) 226-6500 ********************************** -----Original Message----- From: meabolex To: Wizards Customer Service Cc: Subject: question about major image My question involves the Major Image spell. Let's say I'm a wizard and I use the Major Image spell at 5th level. I can create 4 10ft. cubes + 5 more for Major Image. Since an Ancient Gold Dragon takes up a space of 20ft, I think I can fit the dragon in 9 10ft. cubes. So I have used Major Image to create a gargantuan gold dragon using concentration. I've seen one before (in character), so I know exactly what one looks like. I can mimick the sound, smell, and thermal effects of the dragon (as part of Major Image). My question: does the illusory dragon have a Frightful Presence when I send him up into the air? Frightful Presence is an extraordinary ability of the dragon -- it is non-magical. The effect is generated by the dragon's mere *presence*. I can simulate virtually any aspect of the dragon's presence with Major Image. To not allow the frightful presence seems to defeat the entire purpose of the illusion. If PCs do not know that it is NOT a dragon, how can they not be affected by the frightful presence? And if they are affected by the dragon's Frightful Presence, does it count as interaction (for disbelief) with the dragon?
Beamup 02-23-04, 01:38 PM	So a level 3 spell can now be used as a no-SR Fear spell with a very Epic save. Yeah right. Custserv dropped the ball totally on this one. Throws balance issues right out the window.
meabolex 02-23-04, 02:09 PM	Not really sure about all the implications. I believe your allies are affected by the Frightful Presence as are enemies. If the dragon is dismissed, you're still frightened for 4d6 rounds. . . the frightful presence doesn't mention that the effect lasts as long as the dragon is present. So I can have the illusory dragon fly over enemies heads for one round. They immediately have to roll a DC 37 will save (using the bronze great wyrm) and have no chance to roll a disbelief save. Yeah, this is powerful, but it's not game-breaking. Unlike the fear spell, this effect is based on HD, so shakened is the norm. This grants a -2 to attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks (this also means initiative checks (dex checks), grapple checks, trip checks (str checks), etc.) AFAIK, FP will work on anything in the area. There's no evidence to support that the wizard is immune to the effects of the illusion. Thus, you could rule that even the wizard is subject to this ability. However, a healthy dose of common sense would probably not cause the wizard to be shaken by his own illusion. I think this is a very interesting effect, and I'm glad custserv backs me up on this one. I do feel, however, that Frightful Presence should probably be reworded or modified. By the rules, however, this now stands as standard strategy.
JackalNZ 02-23-04, 02:54 PM	I believe some people are reading more into this than is needed. As per the rules in the various sections of the 3.5 SRD: Creating a dragon using Persistent Image is fine, and by the spell description, the dragon will be displaying all the necessary "... visual, auditory, olfactory, and thermal components ..." and following a script as determined by the caster, but that's all that's 'created'. No Extraordinary or Supernatural abilities. The viewer is allowed to make a DC save (15 + modifiers) to disbelieve the spell, because even though ... "Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.", logic would suggest that when facing a creature that's exhibiting all the expected behaviour of a dragon then they are interacting with it. How the DM adjudicates the reasoning behind the outcome is up to them. If the viewer saves then the DM could reason its because the viewer noticed they weren't panicked or shaken from the dragons normal Frightful Presence, and lo and behold ... "A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline" .. they see the Persistent Image is translucent. And if the viewer fails ... "Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation", they're off running because they think they're panicked or shaken.
meabolex 02-23-04, 03:09 PM	Originally posted by JackalNZ [B]No Extraordinary or Supernatural abilities. Show me where "no extraordinary abilities" is in the SRD? (Hint: it's not). Even if it were in there, the FP is based on the physical appearance of the dragon. If the PCs can't tell the dragon isn't fake, they think it's real. The viewer is allowed to make a DC save (15 + modifiers) to disbelieve the spell, because even though ... "Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.", logic would suggest that when facing a creature that's exhibiting all the expected behaviour of a dragon then they are interacting with it. This isn't true. Looking at a person isn't interacting with that person. Interaction means action between things. Mere observation isn't enough (since the illusion isn't looking at the PCs). edit: careful study is mentioned as an ability to make a disbelief check. I imagine it's difficult to carefully study something that's moving at 100s of feet a round and relatively far away.
Luminous Crayon 02-23-04, 03:14 PM	Originally posted by meabolex Even if it were in there, the FP is based on the physical appearance of the dragon. Show me where "based on the physical appearance of the dragon" is in the SRD? (Hint: it's not). I still dispute this one.
meabolex 02-23-04, 03:17 PM	A young adult or older dragon can unsettle foes with its mere [physical] presence.
Beamup 02-23-04, 03:24 PM	So you insert words into the SRD to make your point when the word you insert is the crucial one. Nice. Here's a similar 'quote' from the SRD: A young adult or older dragon can unsettle foes with its mere [psionic] presence. Or perhaps: A young adult or older dragon can unsettle foes with its mere [cheese] presence. Equally valid. Edit: And if you get right down to it, "physical presence" would argue that it doesn't work, since "physical presence" is exactly what isn't there. APPEARANCE is what's there.
meabolex 02-23-04, 03:25 PM	unfortunately, also nonsensical.
Beamup 02-23-04, 03:26 PM	Originally posted by meabolex unfortunately, also nonsensical. Cheese is, yes. But [psionic] isn't, nor is [mental] or any other such. Anyway, see the edit I made while you posted. Edit: Wow, I'm editing in a lot of stuff here. Better than double posting, though. You should also take note that the FP save is Charisma-based... which means it's based on a MENTAL stat. Not physical.
meabolex 02-23-04, 03:28 PM	psionic or magical presences cannot be extraordinary. They must be supernatural or spell-like.
Beamup 02-23-04, 03:29 PM	Originally posted by meabolex psionic or magical presences cannot be extraordinary. They must be supernatural or spell-like. In general, yes, but not necessarily always. And you've made no comment on "mental."
meabolex 02-23-04, 03:32 PM	An example of an extraordinary magical or psionic presence? Extraordinary implies physical or pertaining to physical elements. Poison is physical, so it's extraordinary. Gaseous form may be physical, but the act of creating it is magical. So it's not extraordinary.
Beamup 02-23-04, 03:36 PM	Abilites are Extraordinary if they say (Ex) next to them. In general, they are not magical, and it would make little sense for them to be magical... but it's possible within the rules. Anyway, I'm still waiting for your response to the fact that the FP is directly tied to the dragon's MENTAL stats, not physical.
JackalNZ 02-23-04, 03:37 PM	The SRD defines what is, not isn't. Don't take the absence of something as an affirmative. I'm not going to argue the definition of 'interaction'. If you choose to believe that merely looking is not interacting then I'm happy with that. IMC 'looking' at a creature with a gaze attack calls for a saving throw (according to the SRD). I'm also not going to argue your definition of Frightful Presence. If you believe that Frightful Presence is an effect produced by the physical appearance then again, that's fine. But, "Frightful Presence (Ex): A young adult or older dragon can unsettle foes with its mere presence. ", an invisible dragon IMC that flies overhead will cause this effect, irrespective of whether the creatures below can see it or not. I agree, carfeul study is probably difficult when the object is moving ... "at 100s of feet a round and relatively far away." But, IMC, spellcasters follow the normal rules of Persistent Image: "Effect: Visual figment that cannot extend beyond four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level You can move the image within the limits of the size of the effect." It's your call whether to believe a 5th level spell requies a moderate save (DC 15 + modifiers) or one which produces an effect that requires an outrageous one of DC 30 or so.
meabolex 02-23-04, 03:42 PM	All of my examples have used the assumption that the wizard has seen a dragon's frightful presence in use. This is the only way the wizard can simulate the dragon's FP. If the wizard has never seen a dragon, he can't really imitate the exact abilities of the spell. I have no idea what you're talking about in relation to the mental presence of a dragon. The only way you'd be able to detect someone's mental presence (in D&D at least) is to use a (Su) or (Sp) ability since the mental ability is tied to a soul, an inherently non-physical thing. Remember that the concept of souls is used in D&D (otherwise, ressurection wouldn't work). Thus, you're saying that something that doesn't come from a physical source is an extraordinary ability, which is a contradiction.
Beamup 02-23-04, 03:46 PM	Originally posted by meabolex I have no idea what you're talking about in relation to the mental presence of a dragon. Frightful Presence is a Charisma-based effect. Charisma is a mental stat. Therefore Frightful Presence is a mental-based effect, NOT physical.
meabolex 02-23-04, 03:46 PM	JackalNZ, we're talking about different spells. I'm talking about Major Image. . . While concentrating, you can move the image within the range range: 400 ft. + 40 ft/level level 5 range = 600 ft.
meabolex 02-23-04, 03:48 PM	Originally posted by Beamup Frightful Presence is a Charisma-based effect. Charisma is a mental stat. Therefore Frightful Presence is a mental-based effect, NOT physical. Charisma can also represent external physical appearance. While some elements of charisma are based on personality, this element is based on the actual physical appearance of the creature. A dragon that is polymorphed into a toad cannot use frightful presence, because there is no dragon present.
JackalNZ 02-23-04, 03:58 PM	Originally posted by meabolex Thus, you're saying that something that doesn't come from a physical source is an extraordinary ability, which is a contradiction. Not at all. Other than what the SRD says about an Ex I have no opinion on the matter. In the case of a dragon with Frightful Presence the SRD (as has already been quoted by various people on this thread) merely states that effect is produced by the 'presence' of the dragon. There are no qualifiers to the statement (other than those concerning what the dragon must be doing to generate the effect). I just choose to think that closing my eyes when the dragon attacks won't make me immune to the effects of Frightful Presence, which it possibly would if the effect came from a purely 'physical' presence.
meabolex 02-23-04, 04:01 PM	JackalNZ, please remember that major image provides all aspects of the dragon's presence. The smell, the sound, the sound of him gliding through the air -- vision is not necessary. You could close your eyes and STILL be affected by the illusion spell. Only a character who could not see or hear or smell or feel the dragon's heat could save against the spell (AKA a dead person or something immune to fear or mind-affecting abilities).
JackalNZ 02-23-04, 04:02 PM	Originally posted by meabolex JackalNZ, we're talking about different spells. I'm talking about Major Image. . . range: 400 ft. + 40 ft/level level 5 range = 600 ft. Irrelevant. The range and area of effect are based off Silent Image. You can cast the Silent/Major/Persistent Images at the appropriate range, but the illusion can only be created and moved within the area defined, ie, "Visual figment that cannot extend beyond four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level"
meabolex 02-23-04, 04:04 PM	It may be based on Silent Image, but look at the description of Major Image. edit: the number of 10 ft. cubes is enough to simulate a gargantuan creature at level 5.
JackalNZ 02-23-04, 04:15 PM	Originally posted by meabolex JackalNZ, please remember that major image provides all aspects of the dragon's presence. The smell, the sound, the sound of him gliding through the air -- vision is not necessary. Correct. All that makes the illusion extremely believable. Originally posted by meabolex JackalYou could close your eyes and STILL be affected by the illusion spell. Only a character who could not see or hear or smell or feel the dragon's heat could save against the spell (AKA a dead person or something immune to fear or mind-affecting abilities). No. All creatures are allowed a save. Some do not need to save. In all other respects it's irrelevant whether I'm blind, deaf or otherwise: "Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. They cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding or delaying foes, but useless for attacking them directly. " The figment cannot do anything physical to me. I've only being trying to make two points: 1. Using the Silent/Major/Persistent Image spells to generate an illusionary dragon that requires its viewers to make saves against its Frightful Presence is absurd 2. Under the rules a real dragons Frightful Presence is not soley attributable to its 'physical' appearance, otherwise closing your eyes would negate the effect
JackalNZ 02-23-04, 04:23 PM	Originally posted by meabolex It may be based on Silent Image, but look at the description of Major Image. edit: the number of 10 ft. cubes is enough to simulate a gargantuan creature at level 5. Yes, I agree, but you stated way back when: "careful study is mentioned as an ability to make a disbelief check. I imagine it's difficult to carefully study something that's moving at 100s of feet a round and relatively far away." You can cast the spell at some distance AND you can create a gargantuan dragon that will fit inside the effect of the spell, BUT the dragon isn't going anywhere. Consequently, assuming you can see the dragon at the range the spell was cast (and if you can't, why am I making a saving throw), making a careful study, or interacting with it, is a no-brainer.
meabolex 02-23-04, 05:11 PM	Jackal, you can move the image anywhere within the range. It says that in the description of Major Image. The range is 600 ft. While concentrating, you can move the image within the range. I can move the dragon anywhere in a 600 ft radius. You're making a save because the area of effect of FP is approximately 30 x 6 or 180 ft. radius from the dragon.
meabolex 02-23-04, 05:17 PM	Originally posted by JackalNZ 1. Using the Silent/Major/Persistent Image spells to generate an illusionary dragon that requires its viewers to make saves against its Frightful Presence is absurd 2. Under the rules a real dragons Frightful Presence is not soley attributable to its 'physical' appearance, otherwise closing your eyes would negate the effect First of all, magic is absurd. But it's represented in this game through a series of rules. A Major Image (I never mentioned silent or minor image -- they cannot completely represent a dragon) can, within the rules, have an aura of frightful presence. Nothing in the figment's description says that a figment cannot cause a fear-like effect that's both extraordinary and based entirely on the physical appearance of the dragon. Major Image can duplicate a dragon's entire physical presence. Physical presence is more than just looks. You can feel the heat of the dragon's breath. You can hear the sound of a dragon roaring. Both of these effects are based on physical properties. If you read an earlier post, you can see where WotC's customer serivce agreed with me. I'm not just making this stuff up (:
JackalNZ 02-23-04, 05:31 PM	Originally posted by meabolex Nothing in the figment's description says that a figment cannot cause a fear-like effect that's both extraordinary and based entirely on the physical appearance of the dragon. Major Image can duplicate a dragon's entire physical presence. From the definition of a figment: "Because figments and glamers (see below) are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can". Frightful Presence is a real effect. It cannot be created by an illusion. Originally posted by meabolex If you read an earlier post, you can see where WotC's customer serivce agreed with me. I'm not just making this stuff up (: I know you're not. I just think WoTC had a brain-fart. WoTC is incorrect. My mistake regarding the description of Major Image. It just so happens that Silent Image (L1) and Persistent Image (L5) can only have the image moved within the area of effect, but Major Image (L3) can have it moved within the range of the spell. Spot the odd one out.
meabolex 02-23-04, 08:57 PM	The oddity here is that FP is the only extraordinary ability in the game that is a mind-influencing effect. The effect is not a "real" effect, like an attack, a spell, or a supernatural ability. The effect is based on the concept of presence. If major image cannot generate the presence of a creature, then no one will ever think that the creature is really there -- negating the entire point of the spell. You can't have it both ways. You can't make people think a dragon is really there and not have the effect of FP. What's the point of having a spell that doesn't simulate the presence of a creature? No player will ever take Major Image if you can't do what the spell says you can do.
Shorty 02-23-04, 10:00 PM	Since various ways of "Fortifying" the victums belife in the Dragon's fearful presence above. I would like to expand the discussion to included using several images to fortify the belife in a combat application. Say on the first round of combat the illusionist casts silent image and creates a "Giant Beaver", whos runs at full speed down from one end of the battle to the other. It promptly disapears behind a bush/tree/building at the end of illusionist action. Becouse it happens so fast the other PC's and MOB's can't disbelive it becouse they never interact with it, and they can't take an action to actively disbelive. On the secound round the same illuisionist cast Ghost Sound and creates the sound craking timber and snapping limbs. On round three the Ghost Sound continues to make the sound of falling timber. The illusionist then uses silent image again, this time he creates the image of a falling tree. This tree drops on top of the head of the bigest bad guy. Now since the illusion can't cause damage, the image is modified in such a way that MOB is traped under the tree and pined in place by branches. Thus providing a plausable reason as to why the MOB didn't get hurt. BUT becouse Silent Image can create the illusion of FORCE, the tree seams to be too heavy for even a strong MOB to move. Illusionist then maintains the spell while the pick of the MOB with arrows and spears. My Question is: In game terms, just how much does the illusion of the running beaver and cracking wood (which can't be disbelived) predispose the MOB to belive the Tree when it finally falls?
CrippleMrOnion 02-24-04, 07:41 AM	It appears some people don't like to be wrong. Whether or not you agree with custserv is, unfortunately, irrelevant. Feel free to houserule whatever you like in your game. I know I'd probably houserule this situation the same way in mine. All the same, it's a houserule, not the "correct" rule.
RocketGuy 04-06-04, 01:40 PM	Originally posted by olshanski_home Ok, lets look at the spirit of the rules rather than the letter. General purpose spells (like wish, limited wish, etc), can be used to duplicate lower level spells, but not higher level spells. If you allow a 3rd level "Greater Image" illusion of a dragon to make creatures afraid, (DC 37 will save for a Great Wyrm Bronze Dragon), that is FAR more powerful than a spell should be: Compare it to the 6th level spell Symbol of Fear (which will have an average DC of 21-22. (assuming fairly regular stats and spell focus Necromancy). The weakness with this argument is that clever use of almost any spell can make it much more effective/dangerous than uninspired use of that spell would otherwise indicate. An illusionary rope bridge over a chasm will cause much more damage (under the right circumstances) than any other 3rd level spell would. One of my players actually fell for that one: a third bridge over the stream in the Forge of Fury adventure, in the forge room occupied by the Dark Dwarves. We almost lost our Barbarian who charged the spell caster on the other side of the bridge and plunged into the swift-moving water in armor. Changed the entire focus of the combat from offensive to defensive while we were trying to rescue him. The Dragon's fear effect is (EX). OK, great. That means that it's an artifact of it's size/reputation/etc. If a Monster actually believes that the illusion is a Dragon, then he would be affected by the fear effect. However, an important distinction between the fear effect of a real Dragon vs. an illusionary Dragon is that the viewer of the illusion gets a chance to disbelieve the it. Dragons are *very* rare (thankfully!), and the appearance of one right when the Monster is chasing the player party would lend a great bonus to the Monster's saving throw to disbelieve the illusion. If the spell caster who creates an illusion is savvy enough to make one that is circumstantially believable, then they are rewarded with effects that are proportionally greater than those of a normal lvl3 spell. However, the downside is that dumb use of illusions is almost always ineffective, and even inspired use of illusions is subject to saving throws.
meabolex 04-06-04, 06:50 PM	Originally posted by RocketGuy However, an important distinction between the fear effect of a real Dragon vs. an illusionary Dragon is that the viewer of the illusion gets a chance to disbelieve the it. Dragons are *very* rare (thankfully!), and the appearance of one right when the Monster is chasing the player party would lend a great bonus to the Monster's saving throw to disbelieve the illusion. Ahh, this again (: OK, the illusion spells have saving throw of Will (Disbelief). That means that players who directly interact with the dragon make a will save. If they fail, they think the illusion is real until they are presented with irrefutable evidence that the illusion is false (like sticking your hand through it). When I first thought about this, I assumed that anyone who encounters the dragon would have to make a will save to disbelieve the frightful presence (before actually making the frightful presence saving throw). I was told, however, by custserv that if the dragon was sufficently far enough away from the party where perhaps they couldn't hear or feel the dragon (say perhaps because of a rushing river or something) that no disbelief save is possible because the characters cannot actually interact with the dragon. Even I'll admit this is a stretch, but it's the response I got. Take it for whatever it means to you. I know a lot of people don't like custserv. Keep in mind that we're talking about the core rules here, not good DM judgement (it is the player's forum anyway (: ). There's no statement in the illusion spells that state that it's easier to disbelieve them because of "poor use." I can see if someone makes an image of a mindflayer wearing a bikini, then yeah, the DM should award a bonus on the saving throw. However, there's no specific rule for that.