Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EvilVegan 02-24-05, 05:29 PM	Greetings. What level should a spell that does the following be: * Resets current age to young adult. * Causes recipient to lose 1 level. * Costs 5000 xp and 5000 gp worth of gold/spices/etc. * Retains ability bonuses from old age, but not penalties. ? Considering that most of the above could be attained with a regular Reincarnate spell plus a Miracle/Wish, maybe Limited Wish, or Poly any Object. My thinking is around 7th or 8th, but I could see it being 9th. any opinoionsions?
SALDAR 02-24-05, 05:40 PM	Epic.
der_gogo 02-24-05, 05:51 PM	There is no option for a Wish to reset age. So definitely epic.
EvilVegan 02-24-05, 06:02 PM	But Reincarnate resets age and its 5th level. So. . . not epic. The wish is to regain your original form, the reincarnate already reset the age. thats why I mentioned both of the spells together, along with polymorph any object as an option to return to original form.
Qit el-Remel 02-24-05, 06:08 PM	8th or 9th. -Qit
Adrez Nesnsid 02-24-05, 06:26 PM	Looking at it solely from the perspectives game balance (and taking into account the XP cost, the material component, and the level loss), and the relative 'fantasticness' and impossibility of the spell, and discounting the disruptive effect that it might have in regards to the matter of justifying game world demographics, I would place it at about fourth level, the same as Restoration.
Ryoohki 02-24-05, 06:27 PM	I don't think such a thing should exist. There's no way to save a person who dies of old age. Thus the ability to stop someone from dying from old age shouldn't exist. Sure, the reincarnation kind of does that (kind of because it changes your form), but if that were used to prolong your life on an extended basis, the character should turn evil. That's an evil kind of thing, wanting to live forever. Note: There's an epic feat which lets someone have their lifespan extended a short amount of time, based off of their race. However, it's really up to the DM what to allow and what to not allow. But we had some epic characters who were in a planescape campaign, and when we ended it, one of the characters was trying to research this very same thing; some ability to live forever. The DM mentioned that it was possible, but it would involve turning evil. I'd have to agree with him. (Unless you become a good or neutral god or have some neutral or good god help you with their god powers) Kyle
Adrez Nesnsid 02-24-05, 06:55 PM	Looking at it solely from the perspectives game balance (and taking into account the XP cost, the material component, and the level loss), and the relative 'fantasticness' and impossibility of the spell, and discounting the disruptive effect that it might have in regards to the matter of justifying game world demographics, I would place it at about fourth level, the same as Restoration. I should also add that it is DEFINITELY lower than 7th level, as it is clearly less powerful than Limited Wish which can restore a human to their original form and age in just 26667 gp (20000 for a thought bottle (see The Complete Arcane), 6667 for the material components to duplicate Reincarnate 100/15 times)(16667 gp if they sell the thought bottle afterward), 3334 XP (after using the Thought Bottle to restore levels 100/15 times), and no additional level loss. (100/15 is the average number of times somebody would need to be reincarnated before they came back as a human) (alternately, if you think that thought bottles are unbalanced, they could do it with the loss (on average) of 6667 GP, 2000 XP, 6.7 levels lost, and no thought bottle)..................... ............. :blush: :( hmmm.... well, maybe its not CLEARLY less powerful, but you have to also take into account that limited wish can also do other stuff and that you might get lucky and have it restore you as a human the first time that you tried it, and that these prices drop drastically if the caster and/or target is a 4th level or higher fatespinner, a thrid level or higher wild mage with access to spell storing items, or also a cleric with access to the Luck domain.
Adrez Nesnsid 02-24-05, 07:17 PM	I don't think such a thing should exist. There's no way to save a person who dies of old age. Thus the ability to stop someone from dying from old age shouldn't exist. Sure, the reincarnation kind of does that (kind of because it changes your form), but if that were used to prolong your life on an extended basis, the character should turn evil. That's an evil kind of thing, wanting to live forever. Note: There's an epic feat which lets someone have their lifespan extended a short amount of time, based off of their race. However, it's really up to the DM what to allow and what to not allow. But we had some epic characters who were in a planescape campaign, and when we ended it, one of the characters was trying to research this very same thing; some ability to live forever. The DM mentioned that it was possible, but it would involve turning evil. I'd have to agree with him. (Unless you become a good or neutral god or have some neutral or good god help you with their god powers) Kyle Two things: 1. Can you explain what exactly makes the desire to live forever "evil"? and 2. There's very little in the way of non roleplaying reasons to not have such a spell (the only thing that I can think of is that it might make humans and half-orcs slightly more powerful than elves because they age faster, and, thus, after a few re-sets could become much more wise, intelligent, and charismatic than their longer lived counterparts, but measures to circumvent this problem could easily be worked into the spell description (or it could be intentionally left in to serve a purpose similar to the level caps for non-humans in 2E)) ...Oh, and I just thought of a few more things 3. The Expanded psionics Handbook talks about a psionic ritual that can grant a human eternal life; it erases most of the participant's memory, and changes their type to aberration but it doesn't change the participant's alignment and human psionicists of any alignment can be transformed by it. The ritual itself is not statted out in the book, but the transformed people that result from it (called "Elans' are statted out on pages 9-10, and 196-197 (note that while the "aging effects" table on page 16 gives them a maximum age of 2000 years, the book's eratta, as well as the race's description, state that they are immortal)) 4. The potential plot reasons for not having such a spell might sometimes be canceled out by the potential plot factors In Favor of such a spell; particularly this one: Think about it, which do you think is less likely and more impossible, reviving the dead, or reversing the aging process????
EvilVegan 02-24-05, 08:40 PM	Actually the BBEG in one of my campaigns was a psionic goblin that did mindswap with his own descendents when they came of age, specially breeding them for physical prowess and health, and then taking their body. Since goblins age fast they accrue mental bonuses faster (odd no?), and since he kept taking a new body the penalties only mattered at the end of one of his bodies lives. Him and 2 neutral evil druid allies were the only creatures on the planet that were effectively immortal. And in response to : That's an evil kind of thing, wanting to live forever. I'll tell pelor, kord, and all the other immortal non-evils, that they're being evil and should die ASAP. There is no reason immortality, and seeking to attain it, is evil. Seeking to attain it no matter the cost is evil, otherwise it is completely neutral. They could be seeking immortality to combat evil forever on their home plane (remember that in D&D most people KNOW there is an afterlife, so dying isn't a big issue to the faithful). Also, if wanting to live forever (actually what I'm discussing is reversing aging, not granting immortality, which is completely different) is evil, so is being resurrected or healed in any way, because that's just selfish. According to your slippery logic anyway.
kliate 02-24-05, 09:52 PM	One of my NPCs in an upcomming forgotten realms campaign is a 71-year old paladin in a 31-year old body. After 50 years of dedicated service and a Miracle spell, his diety granted him the opportunity to raise a family.
Pyriel 02-24-05, 10:07 PM	id put it at a 9th lvl just becuz doing something like that would take a good amount of magic. and about the elans, there tediously picky about who become one, all of which are red headed humans who are usually pale skinned. And if you were able to become one, whatever class levels you had before becoming one are lost. wishing to live forever is in no way evil, i find it more chaotic then anything. its a kind of selfish thing, not always, for the most part. and like what was said, since nearly everyone in the D&D world believes in afterlife, those who do wish do live on earth for ever usually merely want to be there to further gain power, wealth, or to stay and watch over or protect other things.
tiercel 02-24-05, 10:09 PM	Seeking immortality may or may not be evil, depending on the means you use to try to attain it, but if you try the multiple reincarnation trick or any variation thereon, you should probably be attracting some attention you'd rather not: --http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersHtoI.html#marut-inevitable "You hear that, Mr. Anderson? That is the sound of inevitability. That is the sound of... your death."
EvilVegan 02-24-05, 10:14 PM	Yea, I figured Inevitables would get involved eventually, but that's of course up to the DM.
mythSSK 02-24-05, 10:38 PM	and about the elans, there tediously picky about who become one, all of which are red headed humans who are usually pale skinned. And if you were able to become one, whatever class levels you had before becoming one are lost. I'm being just a little picky and off topic here, but where does it say that all Elan's are red-headed and pale when they were humans? In the Elan description in the XPH is does say that all Elans have red hair and younger ones have pale skin, but nowhere does it state whether this is because thats how they were when they were human or whether it occurs as a side effect of the actual transformation into an Elan. I'd say the latter, because the former doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Elan 1 - "Hey, he's got awesome potential and fits all of our psionic requirements for becoming one of us! Let's change him!" Elan 2 - "You idiot, are you blind? His hair is brown! He is SO not cool enough to be an Elan." As for the actual topic, hmm, I agree that it would definitely be attracting a Marut sooner or later, but with 2+ lifetimes to prepare, could a CR 15 creature really stop someone who planned for it? The spell itself I'd place at 5th, perhaps 6th level.
Talchar 02-24-05, 11:24 PM	IMO, it is not a spell that is allowed under the current incarnation of the rules, thus by default it could be Epic. Under the rules, the only legitimate way to extend your life past natural death is through being a lich. So, why would someone want to be a lich, when they can blow a 4th level spell and live forever?? That said, I would allow the concept, but I would have the application be through a Artifiact. (Fountain of Youth)
Loren Pechtel 02-24-05, 11:47 PM	Greetings. What level should a spell that does the following be: * Resets current age to young adult. * Causes recipient to lose 1 level. * Costs 5000 xp and 5000 gp worth of gold/spices/etc. * Retains ability bonuses from old age, but not penalties. ? Considering that most of the above could be attained with a regular Reincarnate spell plus a Miracle/Wish, maybe Limited Wish, or Poly any Object. My thinking is around 7th or 8th, but I could see it being 9th. any opinoionsions? You're basically combining a level 5 + a level 9 into a single casting. The result must be above level 9. By the rules, this requires it to be epic. Personally I believe there are spells of levels higher than 9. I can see no justification for magic stopping there. By the book it would be level 15 but I find this too high. I'd be inclined to say something like 12.
[GSV] Kirstar 02-25-05, 04:10 AM	The short life span of humans is balenced against the bonus feat and skill points.
RaspK FOG 02-25-05, 04:39 AM	Whoever suggested Reincarnate would find himself at odds with the fact that the spell originally was a magic-user spell... :D I any case, since there no longer is a True Reincarnation spell (which had appeared in Masters of the Wild), I guess the developers actually grew some gray matter above what they already had, despite what most people think of them, and actually felt that there should be no non-epic magic that would restore youthfulness to your body without the loss of a level.
Adrez Nesnsid 02-25-05, 06:41 AM	id put it at a 9th lvl just becuz doing something like that would take a good amount of magic. HOW whould it take MORE magic than Bringing The DEAD Back To LIFE? From a storytelling perspective, "Age Reset" should be a lower level spell than "Raise Dead" because it does something which is considerably LESS IMPOSSIBLE...By a considerable amount!!!!!!!!
JoeX 02-25-05, 07:57 AM	HOW whould it take MORE magic than Bringing The DEAD Back To LIFE? From a storytelling perspective, "Age Reset" should be a lower level spell than "Raise Dead" because it does something which is considerably LESS IMPOSSIBLE...By a considerable amount!!!!!!!! True Ressurrection cannot bring back somebody who died from old age. A spell who defeat old age should be more powerfull
EvilVegan 02-25-05, 09:57 AM	Did they reprint True Reincarnate in CD? Just wondering. How bout a cumulative % chance to attract an inevitable built into the spell? How bout a cumulative % chance to accidentally lose more than 1 level? How bout a cumulative % chance to lose memories, or be affected by insanity effects? Would any of those lower the spell level? Also as a side note, the spell heal should remove the penalties due to aging, since they're ability damage from cellular decay and the accumulation of poisons in the cells over time. As should the restoration line. And possibly regenerate.
EvilVegan 02-25-05, 09:59 AM	True Ressurrection cannot bring back somebody who died from old age. A spell who defeat old age should be more powerfull This spell doesn't bring someone back who died from old age, this spell reverses the aging process so that they don't reach that point. This spell would have no effect on the already deceased. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as they say.
tarkin 02-25-05, 10:55 AM	That is a cheap quibble. There is an Epic level feat that does what this guy wants. I could see this as a 9th level spell, doing something that Wish can not do, but as ANYTHING less. Reincarnation has several problems, one of which is the fact that it is random. It should be considered a special case, NOT something to base this spell off.
Psychoray 02-25-05, 11:46 AM	Seeking immortality may or may not be evil, depending on the means you use to try to attain it, but if you try the multiple reincarnation trick or any variation thereon, you should probably be attracting some attention you'd rather not: --http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersHtoI.html#marut-inevitable "You hear that, Mr. Anderson? That is the sound of inevitability. That is the sound of... your death." What about becoming an elemental savant (at 10th level your type changes to elemental/outsider so you don't age) would a Marut go after someone who became an elemental savant?
Adrez Nesnsid 02-25-05, 12:01 PM	I just found a precedent for an age reducing, non-epic, spell, earlier today in BoVD, called Steal Life its 8th level and only removes a small amount of aging, but I'm pretty sure that there's no XP cost to the caster or material component or level loss for the caster (the spell has a range of self (i think)) (although there is ability damage done to an unwilling target for every week the caster's age that is reversed) (I don't have the book with me at the moment so I can't double check. So, with that precedent in mind, I reccomend that you add some additional components and a long casting time, and then make it a 7th level spell. Perhaps an expensive and unwieldly focus component and a location component or something?
Santrilla 02-25-05, 12:06 PM	But we had some epic characters who were in a planescape campaign, and when we ended it, one of the characters was trying to research this very same thing; some ability to live forever. The DM mentioned that it was possible, but it would involve turning evil. I'd have to agree with him. (Unless you become a good or neutral god or have some neutral or good god help you with their god powers) Sounds to me like your DM wasn't saying immortality was evil; he was subtly suggesting that you'd need to become a lich. :P
Kyuketsukiouji 02-25-05, 12:21 PM	Greetings. What level should a spell that does the following be: * Resets current age to young adult. * Causes recipient to lose 1 level. * Costs 5000 xp and 5000 gp worth of gold/spices/etc. * Retains ability bonuses from old age, but not penalties. ? Considering that most of the above could be attained with a regular Reincarnate spell plus a Miracle/Wish, maybe Limited Wish, or Poly any Object. My thinking is around 7th or 8th, but I could see it being 9th. any opinoionsions? Well, let's see. Reincarnate + Wish... Or, level 4 spell + level 9 spell... Obviously, we can't expect it to be less than level 9, can we? Now, you could set up a ritual, or some kind of chain casting, to allow you to set this kind of situation up. Reincarnate is level 4, so it can be contingencied, and duplicated with Limited Wish. So that's the first part of the chain: Contingency(Limited Wish(Reincarnate)): "When I die." Now, you have a problem with the Wish part. You could try casting Wish in advance, and set it up as a contingency "I wish that the next time I get reincarnated, my reincarnated form transforms back to the form I had, yadda, yadda.". I'd clear that with my DM first. Otherwise, you'd have to set up a way to cast or trigger Wish after your transformation, no matter what shape you're in. A Still, Silent Wish would do it, but it's hard to pull that at Pre-Epic levels.
JoeX 02-25-05, 12:43 PM	This spell doesn't bring someone back who died from old age, this spell reverses the aging process so that they don't reach that point. This spell would have no effect on the already deceased. Sure but it allows you to live theoretically forever. Making it more powerful than others 9 level spells
JoeX 02-25-05, 12:46 PM	Did they reprint True Reincarnate in CD? Also as a side note, the spell heal should remove the penalties due to aging, since they're ability damage from cellular decay and the accumulation of poisons in the cells over time. As should the restoration line. And possibly regenerate. You are putting too much science in yours fantasy :) Magic does not follows scientific rules but the game rules.
JoeX 02-25-05, 12:48 PM	Well, let's see. Reincarnate + Wish... A Still, Silent Wish would do it, but it's hard to pull that at Pre-Epic levels. Reincarnate + still and silent polymorph + wish. Of course IMHO reincarnate should be errated
MaverickWolf 02-25-05, 12:57 PM	I any case, since there no longer is a True Reincarnation spell (which had appeared in Masters of the Wild), I guess the developers actually grew some gray matter above what they already had, despite what most people think of them, and actually felt that there should be no non-epic magic that would restore youthfulness to your body without the loss of a level. That in itself is incorrect. As has been stated multiple times in various areas of these boards, Wizards of the Coast has already stated that ANYTHING not officially updated to 3.5 is still considered official in its 3.0 form. True Reincarnation needed no updates, so it is still official in its original form, as found in Masters of the Wild.
Ryoohki 02-25-05, 01:32 PM	I didn't really have any explaination why I thought you should turn evil. I can try to give one here, but it'll probably sound cheesy. As to turning into a lich to live forever, that was an option given to that character as well. He didn't want to be a lich, though. Anyway, if you're trying to live forever, that means you're going against what nature set up for your body. Getting resurrected sometimes even causes problems with the gods and stuff, but it is allowed when the person died of non-natural causes. (That is, not from old age) Someone who dies of old age died when their lifespan completed. That's something the gods set up. If you go against it, you're rebelling against the gods and their plans. That's one explaination I didn't think of too much but it sounds somewhat plausible to me. Another might be that the creatures listed in the book who live forever are either evil or already dead to begin with. Like outsiders, they're actually people who had died already. If you're good, you get reborn as say a lantern archon or a hound archon on one of of the good planes. You'll eventually evolve to the higher-level outsiders. So them living forever makes sense since they're already dead. But for mortals to live forever should be impossible without turning into a non-mortal. (aka being a lich or an elemental as someone mentioned or whatnot) If the DM wants to insert plot devices like fountains of youth or mermaid flesh or stuff like that, good for him. But to allow just anyone to cast a spell or buy a scroll to let them live forever or extend their lifespan shouldn't exist. Then you'll have a society with a bunch of rich people who will live forever and rule over the populous. If you insist on it existing, it should be epic IMHO since even wish, miracle, and true resurrection won't bring back someone from the dead who died of old age. Also, then you can't have scrolls lying around with spells to remove aging from people. It's easier to accept that some high-level epic character is helping someone to live forever than a non-epic person. Anyway, in the end it's always the DM's decision. It's his world. Kyle
Bregalad 02-25-05, 03:14 PM	Pretty heavy spell cost for some pretty fine bonuses. Id make it level 9, with the following change: Each use of the spell has a 10% cumulative change of reversing itself, adding all the saved years into the person using them. Thus, after 5 uses of the spell, someone would have a 50% chance of turning instantly into a lich-like form, permanently. Got to be some way to alter this effect, unless you want your characters to have 50+ levels and the same character forever. Either that or say, "nope it just cant be done". Just my opinion.
EvilVegan 02-25-05, 07:17 PM	That is a cheap quibble. There is an Epic level feat that does what this guy wants. I could see this as a 9th level spell, doing something that Wish can not do, but as ANYTHING less. Reincarnation has several problems, one of which is the fact that it is random. It should be considered a special case, NOT something to base this spell off. Your calling my perfectly reasonable argument a "cheap quibble" is in fact a "cheap quibble." If you have logical reasons for thinking that bringing dead flesh back to life should be easier than removing impurities from living flesh, please present them rather than belittling mine. Thank you. There is a 1st level spell in complete adventurer that emulates an epic level feat. Its magic, its supposed to be better than feats. And my name is either Bill, EvilVegan, or Emperor. Please use on of those instead of dismissive pronouns. Or don't refer to me at all, as I have done in this response. There is no reason to reference a person you've already quoted, and it can be taken as rudeness and patronization. Well, let's see. Reincarnate + Wish... Or, level 4 spell + level 9 spell... Obviously, we can't expect it to be less than level 9, can we? Now, you could set up a ritual, or some kind of chain casting, to allow you to set this kind of situation up. Reincarnate is level 4, so it can be contingencied, and duplicated with Limited Wish. So that's the first part of the chain: Contingency(Limited Wish(Reincarnate)): "When I die." Now, you have a problem with the Wish part. You could try casting Wish in advance, and set it up as a contingency "I wish that the next time I get reincarnated, my reincarnated form transforms back to the form I had, yadda, yadda.". I'd clear that with my DM first. Otherwise, you'd have to set up a way to cast or trigger Wish after your transformation, no matter what shape you're in. A Still, Silent Wish would do it, but it's hard to pull that at Pre-Epic levels. It isn't as simple as 4+9 for the level of the spell. Reincarnate, and its random chart, is actually sometimes beneficial and it restores life to the Dead! Wish has multiple uses, above and beyond anything this spell could ever accomplish. The only reason I reference wish, is that reincarnate references wish/miracle/limited wish as possible options to regain your original body. I see no reason the wish would have to be still, silent or whatever, since if you had a contingent reincarnate set up on yourself, you could just cast wish when you came back to restore yourself (or Poly Any Object, if you want to save xp). This isn't a contingent resurrection spell, this is reversing damage done by aging at the cost of slight brain damage (level loss) and financial burden. It is nowhere near as powerful as wish, miracle, poly any object, limited wish, or even reincarnate, and it has more material components and experience cost than any of these spells alone, plus it causes you to lose a level without dying. A level + 5000 xp. That is a lot. The bonuses of these spells are: +3 to all mental stats AFTER YOU'VE LIVED at least 50+ years (depending on race), removing penalties due to aging, and increased longevity (not immortality). How many of you have had any games where you had a character die of old age when you didn't start at venerable? What if I have this spell remove all the mental bonuses due to age as well as the penalties? That sounds more fair. Liches have way more benefits than this spell includes, specifically immortality due to phylactery and undead traits. With an item that casts an inverse of death ward permanently, they are some of the most powerful creatures in the game, and have longevity AND immortality. Sure but it allows you to live theoretically forever. Making it more powerful than others 9 level spells & You are putting too much science in yours fantasy Magic does not follows scientific rules but the game rules. There is a 4th level spell that already theoretically allows you to live forever. So now reincarnate is more powerful than 9th level spells? Even when wish, miracle, and limited wish can all duplicate the effect? You are correct, magic does not follow scientific rules, it does a rather good job of breaking them.
Talchar 02-25-05, 10:04 PM	In prior versions of D&D, age was just another stat that could be modified. The old haste spell had a cute little factor of aging the recipient a year. (That really cut down on the castings of the spell .. at least for humans, and casting haste on a half orc, was done only if you had a death wish) Any way, the age thing caused all kinds of issues. Ghosts were just plain lethal aging 10 to 40 years per hit. Anyway, it led to people playing elves for survival purposes & dragons, thumping ghosts to gain HD... Long story short, modify age, is not a question of spell level. In strict game terms, a spell that modify age, is not going to be that high a level. If you can bring someone back from death, reversing age should be a snap. Under current edition rules, magical effects that influence age, cannot be effects that are common. No amount of exp loss, gold cost ect. can be used to balance an effect, that by definition, the game does not allow modifications to. I think at this point, this arguement is null. All that remains and this point is for people hold hands and sing Kumbiya.
ManTimeForgot 02-25-05, 10:25 PM	Let's set down the facts before arguing people shall we? Reincarnate: 4th level age reset. Flaw: cannot decide form. Polymorph: 5th level alter form. Flaw: temporary. Wish: 9th level form reset. Flaw: 5,000 exp cost. Our current spell: Indeterminate level Age reset while maintaining form. Flaw: 5,000 exp. 5,000 gp. 1 level loss. It quite clearly is not epic level in scope since the spell duplicates what wish could do no problem at only a cost of 10,000 exp (which is a heck of a lot less than a whole level). Please note that using wish to duplicate reincarnate (stupid I know since limited wish could do it), then using a still silent polymorph to assume the form of human, then using wish to permanently reset your form to what it was pre-reincarnation is only 10,000 exp total. I would be more pleased with the spell if it included an expensive focus, but to those of you who say it needs more in order to balance it please explain why? As it is the system already allows for effective immortality, so why should a spell which conceivably grants it be barred from existence? Thank You all and have a nice day. Signed, The Man Time Forgot
Talchar 02-25-05, 11:52 PM	It quite clearly is not epic level in scope since the spell duplicates what wish could do no problem at only a cost of 10,000 exp (which is a heck of a lot less than a whole level). Please note that using wish to duplicate reincarnate (stupid I know since limited wish could do it), then using a still silent polymorph to assume the form of human, then using wish to permanently reset your form to what it was pre-reincarnation is only 10,000 exp total. Er? Ok, you are 95 and in 1 day you are going to die of old age, so you off yourself and have a friend duplicate reincarnate on you....ok, you are now Bambi. You then polymorph in a human, and wish to reset your body to prior to the reincarnate? Ok, you now have have a friend down 5K exp, you have lost a level, and then you turn yourself into a 95 year old with one day left to live. Impressive, can I interest you in buying a bridge? Bottom line: If wish can make you younger, then you do not need to do backflips with reincarnate. Just cast the wish. Personally, from what I gather, there is this PC out there who does not want to die of old age. (was offered the option of being a lich and just said no) At issue, is that in the PHG, there are ways to dodge death by old age is to aquire a new body. The best is reincarnate, second best is clone. However, a clone only returns you to the age of the clone...which could have issues. So the question is, could a 9th level spell do what the PC wants? IMO: if the DM says so. From a game standpoint, the answer is a general no. If True Resurection cannot do it- which is a specialized 9th level spell, then no other 9th level spell can, well with the exception of Miracle (with a Deity's help). A wish spell cannot bring back a PC from death without level loss, thus True Resurrection is more powerfull then the wish spell If you have a nice DM, (2) Wishes might do it, if your body is completely destroyed. So, you have your body recreated with 1 wish. Second wish, to resurrect the PC. But the PC would have to find someone too eat a 10K exp loss.
EvilVegan 02-26-05, 01:28 AM	More balancing factors. Casting Time at least 1 day. Material Components: 5000 gp worth of oils, herbs, crystals, etc. In addition must have an additional special component, such as a phoenix feather, or something similar that has a connection to an ageless or immortal being.
EvilVegan 02-26-05, 01:42 AM	If True Resurection cannot do it- which is a specialized 9th level spell, then no other 9th level spell can, well with the exception of Miracle (with a Deity's help). A wish spell cannot bring back a PC from death without level loss, thus True Resurrection is more powerfull then the wish spell I don't see why you're bringing true res into this, they don't have anything to do with each other. One is used on beings who are dead, one is used on beings who are not. One reverses aging, the other brings dead things back to life. My spell can't: Return life to the dead. Bring back people who died from old age. Duplicate spells of any level. Grant inherent bonuses to abilities. Heal any status conditions, aside from old age. Be cast without the body being present and alive. The only reason I referenced reincarnate is that it is precedent for resetting age. The only reason I referenced wish is that it, being probably the most powerful spell in the universe, is one of the ways to remove the randomness associated with reincarnate. Balance-wise I'd say this spell should probably be at least 5th, I think I'd place it around 7th, just to keep it from altering demographics as much. Only the richest people could afford to have this spell cast on them. Hiring someone to cast it starts at 35000 gold. Think of it as magical plastic surgery. Death ward is a 3rd level spell that protects against several other spells, up to 9th level and beyond. 3rd level trumping 9th. Because it is preventative, it must be cast before the affects are felt. Similarly a spell that prevents death from old age doesn't have to be as powerful as one that restores life to one who has already perished from old age (or even as powerful as one that restores life to someone who died of other causes).
Vatras 02-26-05, 02:06 AM	For reasons of balance and inner logic of the game world I do not allow any spells to reset age. This has so many repercussions, that even a little taste of it warned me off forever. I did a Greyhawk (1st Edition) campaign then and my plot revolved around an ancient plot to rule the world (I stole the basic idea from Umberto Ecos The Foucault Pendulum). The whole thing threatened to go awry, when a player reminded me that elves live 2000 years, and so there actually had to be living contemporaries of the long dead protagonists, who could tell them the missing pieces. I there and then resolved, that there must be no immortality on a regular basis around. There would also be the problem of how rich immortals would be and how powerful...a wizard living and learning for 3.000 years must have reached a very high level indeed, as would his fighter buddy and others...and there would be lots of them around after a while. And think of old monsters like dragons who just remove their age problems and become even older (Draconomicon has rules for ages above the 12th category, and those are real monsters). In short, the problem is not, if a single character is immortal due to some fluke, artefact or whatever, but that everyone who could cast the spell or purchase it would be. Since campaigns rarely run long enough (in game time) for the PCs to reach old age, this would be more cosmetic than anything else for a PC. If your DM likes the spell, you can research it, if not, no amount of postings will change that :)
EvilVegan 02-26-05, 02:41 AM	I'm not researching what level it should be as a PC or a DM. I was just wondering what level people would place it at and why. Some people say 4th some people say 15th. I can see the logic behind some of it, I was just arguing my case, in as nice a manner as I could.
Adrez Nesnsid 02-26-05, 08:23 AM	You are putting too much science in yours fantasy :) Magic does not follows scientific rules but the game rules. I wouldn't go as far as to say that. Magic follows scientific rules, just not the science of the real world, but, rather, the science of the game world.
Adrez Nesnsid 02-26-05, 08:31 AM	I didn't really have any explaination why I thought you should turn evil. I can try to give one here, but it'll probably sound cheesy. As to turning into a lich to live forever, that was an option given to that character as well. He didn't want to be a lich, though. Anyway, if you're trying to live forever, that means you're going against what nature set up for your body. ... But nature is NEUTRAL, (it is) NOT Good. Obad-Hai is neutral, Druids are neutral, animals are neutral, vermin are neutral, et cetera. So it isn't necessarily evil to go against nature
Adrez Nesnsid 02-26-05, 08:39 AM	Death ward is a 3rd level spell that protects against several other spells, up to 9th level and beyond. 3rd level trumping 9th. Because it is preventative, it must be cast before the affects are felt. Similarly a spell that prevents death from old age doesn't have to be as powerful as one that restores life to one who has already perished from old age (or even as powerful as one that restores life to someone who died of other causes). That's what I've been saying from the start. I'm glad that I'm not the only one here with enough lucidity to see that.
Adrez Nesnsid 02-27-05, 09:50 AM	BUMP!!!!:bump:
SALDAR 02-27-05, 11:18 PM	Previous editions of DnD did have various spells, magic items, and creatures that affected character age. In 3rd edition these things were removed and/or replaced by different effects, such as Potions of Longevity (gone) and Ghosts that in previous editions caused a character to age with a touch now causes ability damage, I think because the change in game mechanics rendered them unnecessary. If you still feel the need for such things, though, then by all means create and use them. But as to why I believe such a spell as suggested should be epic here is my reasoning. To start, Reincarnate and Clone are not good precedents to use for the spell. All these spells do is create nonliving bodies for the soul to return too after a character has died, they have nothing to do with “resetting” age. The levels of these spells also show the difficulty in just doing this. Reincarnate, at 4th level, creates a young adult body of a random race. The body created may be younger than that of the character that is being reincarnated but this is not the purpose of the spell, it is merely a beneficial side effect on occasion. Clone creates an exact duplicate of the character’s original body, which is much harder than creating a random body, thus the much higher level (8th). In neither case are you dealing with a living body, you are merely creating a vessel for the soul. Also, neither spell can return a creature that has died of old age, thus it has no direct effect at all concerning age. Even Wish is required twice to bring a character back to life if its body is totally destroyed, the first to create the character’s body (as Clone does) and the second to return the soul to the body. So, by the written rules, returning the dead to life is possible, but making a living body younger is not, at least not without requiring the character’s death and the creation of a new body. As for magic that directly affects age, WotC has recently set a precedent within the Forgotten Realms book Lost Empires of Faerun. Prior to this there has not been any official spell (i.e. published by WotC) that I am aware of that halts or reverses character age. This new book discusses a spell used prior to Mystral’s death and after Mystra’s ban on spells above 9th level called Ioulaum’s Longevity. Prior to the ban it was a 10th level spell, after the ban it was developed as an Epic spell. Basically it does a lot of damage to all creatures in the spell’s area and for each living creature that is killed you do not age for 1 year. This does not reverse aging, it just halts it for a time. As with all Epic spells it requires a Spellcraft check to cast and this one is in the triple digits. So, yes, there is a published precedent that can be used to guide the creation of such spells. But it is Epic and the requirements are very high with several drawbacks, such as XP costs (making the developer a minimum of 55th level) and tons of gold (over 13 tons if you must know, yes, I calculated it) to develop, XP to cast (combined with development XP costs, 59th level minimum to develop AND cast), and the slaying of living creatures to gain any benefit.
sooperspook 02-28-05, 02:26 AM	I disagree with the argumant that All rich people would have this spell cast on them. Thats about the same as saying All rich people dont have to worry about assassination as they can just be ressurected. Rulers of countries could definately afford to be ressurected if ever assasinated, so why dont they? Additionally there are several instances of published characters who are several thousands of years old yet dont have the Epic spells that are supposedly needed. Elminster, Mordekainen, Halaster, Khelben, Rary, one i cant remember who used wishes. Furthermore RL mythology and fantasy fiction is replete with magic users who live far longer than normal, sometimes simply by virture of Being a spellcaster. It simply fits the theme of DnD that magic can be used to extend ones life. I dont see every rich tom, dirk and harry having stables of wizards casting these spells for them anymore than i see stables of wizards casting Major Creation or Fabricate or any of a dozen spells that a rich and powerful person would want. magic users are RARE. finding even a low level one should be hard. finding one of just the right level should be harder and finding one with just the right spell you want should be next to impossible. just getting one to cast a normal spell for you costs huge amounts. imagine how much they would charge to cast a youth spell? Sure there would be a few people around willing and able to pay those huge amounts but not enough of them to cause any major change to how your world works. In 2nd ed there were Elixirs of Youth which reduced your physical age by 2 or 3 years. They were expensive but not impossible to make. Nor were they epic level items. In fact they made excellent plot / adventure hooks, the PCs being hired to find the esoteric materials needed. or to provide a guard for the great wealth a patron is sending to a wizard as payment for a few vials. I say , 4th or 5t level would work fine. Even lower maybe given the great cost of casting this spell.
SamiPeikko 02-28-05, 07:49 AM	Thanks for SALDAR for informative post. Just something I was hoping to find from this thread. And thanks for sooperspook to finally bring the fact about these longliving spellcasters up. There must be ingame reasons for longevity of these characters, and the "easiest way" to prolong ones life should be among these (more or less ) known reasons. For example, if the ingame reason for _all_ longliving wizards in this world is, that they all are "chosen of Mystra", then character seeking longevity should try to gain Mystras favor, as no one has actually made it otherway. I disagree about the claim that spellcasters should be rare. This is strictly campaign spesific.
Adrez Nesnsid 02-28-05, 08:23 AM	As for magic that directly affects age, WotC has recently set a precedent within the Forgotten Realms book Lost Empires of Faerun. Prior to this there has not been any official spell (i.e. published by WotC) that I am aware of that halts or reverses character age. This new book discusses a spell used prior to Mystral’s death and after Mystra’s ban on spells above 9th level called Ioulaum’s Longevity. Prior to the ban it was a 10th level spell, after the ban it was developed as an Epic spell. Basically it does a lot of damage to all creatures in the spell’s area and for each living creature that is killed you do not age for 1 year. This does not reverse aging, it just halts it for a time. As with all Epic spells it requires a Spellcraft check to cast and this one is in the triple digits. There's also a seventh level spell in "Book of Vile Darkness" called Steal Life which reverses (not halts, mind you, reverses) the aging process of the caster by one week for every point of ability damage that they can manage to deal to another creature using the spell.
SamiPeikko 03-03-05, 04:31 AM	There's also a seventh level spell in "Book of Vile Darkness" called Steal Life which reverses (not halts, mind you, reverses) the aging process of the caster by one week for every point of ability damage that they can manage to deal to another creature using the spell. This spell sounds to me to be too good. No need to turn to Lich anymore. Complete agelessness to many evil spellcasters still quite far from epic levels. If this spell is to be used in a campaign, it either needs a considerable population of these beings, or a balancing factor that has prevented this kind of population from forming.
SALDAR 03-03-05, 08:37 AM	Actually, it is an 8th level spell. It is also an evil spell, so casting it is an evil action, with a location requirement (a place under the effects of a Desecrate or Unhallow spell, both evil spells as well), and only reverses aging when cast during a full moon. The aging reversal is, as stated above, only one week per ability point drained. So draining an average person would reverse your age by about a year or so.
Adrez Nesnsid 03-03-05, 06:08 PM	One thing that I've just thought of that I would like to point out, is that an age resetting spell, even a low level one, could be introduced into a campaign without causing any major plot difficulties by simply assuming that knowledge of their existence is being suppressed by some organization. There are certainly enough organizations from published D&D material that would have reasons to suppress such a spell; There's the "Regulators" from the Epic Level Handbook, the Doomguard (http://www.mimir.net/factions/doomguard.html) from the old Planescape setting (as well as the Planar Handbook), the churches of Nerull, Erythnull and Tharizdun (all of whom would be opposed to anything that keeps life from decaying), the church of Vecna (which would seek to suppress any other group's knowledge and/or use of such a spell so that they could use it as a more effective tool for their own ends (although most of the higher level members would probably be inclined to become liches, which would negate/nullify the effects of aging (or at least those that hadn't already taken effect) anyway), the cults of Orcus (demon prince of death and undeath/the undead), Anthraxus (Or whoever the Oinoloth (Yugoloth lord of disease and decay) is in the current edition (check the Manual of the Planes)), and possibly of The Hag Countess (the only non-Baatezu member of the Lords of The Nine (Hells)) as well, and then there's the Inevitables, jealous Unseelie Fey, et cetera. Such a spell wouldn't necessarily be impossible, just very hard to come by...