Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 09-19-07, 02:23 AM	Ahoy! How would you handle the attempt to aim a Fireball at an invisible attacker 200 ft. away? Here's the situation that led to some debate at our gaming table: A human wizard is running down a city street. It is an overcast night, but the wizard carries a Continual Flame. There is some fighting going on, and a horde of guards is running around trying to find a hidden rogue. The wizard is trying to reach a nearby house where an ally appears to be involved in a fight with another wizard. A cleric, Air Walking 200 ft. above the wizard, casts Spiritual Weapon to attack the running wizard. The cleric is protected by Greater Invisibility and wearing medium armor (Move Silently skill -5). After casting the spell, he half-moves 20 ft. to the side. The wizard rolls a Listen check (result 25) to detect the attacker and tries to aim a Fireball at him - but does he hit him? All participants are experienced combatants; the wizard has heard of a recent aerial attack on his city. The rule set ist D&D 3.5, the three Core Books and all Eberron specific rules are being used (and abused). How'd you handle the situation? Thanks for all your answers! The Listen and Invisibility rules from the SRD for convenience: LISTEN (WIS) Check: Your Listen check is either made against a DC that reflects how quiet the noise is that you might hear, or it is opposed by your target’s Move Silently check. Listen DC Sound –10 A battle 0 People talking1 5 A person in medium armor walking at a slow pace (10 ft./round) trying not to make any noise. 10 An unarmored person walking at a slow pace (15 ft./round) trying not to make any noise 15 A 1st-level rogue using Move Silently to sneak past the listener 15 People whispering1 19 A cat stalking 30 An owl gliding in for a kill 1 If you beat the DC by 10 or more, you can make out what’s being said, assuming that you understand the language. Listen DC Modifier Condition +5 Through a door +15 Through a stone wall +1 Per 10 feet of distance +5 Listener distracted In the case of people trying to be quiet, the DCs given on the table could be replaced by Move Silently checks, in which case the indicated DC would be their average check result. Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to hear something in a reactive manner (such as when someone makes a noise or you move into a new area), you can make a Listen check without using an action. Trying to hear something you failed to hear previously is a move action. Try Again: Yes. You can try to hear something that you failed to hear previously with no penalty. Special: When several characters are listening to the same thing, a single 1d20 roll can be used for all the individuals’ Listen checks. A fascinated creature takes a –4 penalty on Listen checks made as reactions. If you have the Alertness feat, you get a +2 bonus on Listen checks. A ranger gains a bonus on Listen checks when using this skill against a favored enemy. An elf, gnome, or halfling has a +2 racial bonus on Listen checks. A half-elf has a +1 racial bonus on Listen checks. A sleeping character may make Listen checks at a –10 penalty. A successful check awakens the sleeper. INVISIBILITY The ability to move about unseen is not foolproof. While they can’t be seen, invisible creatures can be heard, smelled, or felt. Invisibility makes a creature undetectable by vision, including darkvision. Invisibility does not, by itself, make a creature immune to critical hits, but it does make the creature immune to extra damage from being a ranger’s favored enemy and from sneak attacks. A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance). A creature can use hearing to find an invisible creature. A character can make a Listen check for this purpose as a free action each round. A Listen check result at least equal to the invisible creature’s Move Silently check result reveals its presence. (A creature with no ranks in Move Silently makes a Move Silently check as a Dexterity check to which an armor check penalty applies.) A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creatureÂ’s location. Table: Listen Check DCs to Detect Invisible Creatures Invisible Creature Is . . . DC In combat or speaking 0 Moving at half speed Move Silently check result Moving at full speed Move Silently check result –4 Running or charging Move Silently check result –20 Some distance away +1 per 10 feet Behind an obstacle (door) +5 Behind an obstacle (stone wall) +15 A creature can grope about to find an invisible creature. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent 5-foot squares using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature’s current location. (If the invisible creature moves, its location, obviously, is once again unknown.) If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck still knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location. If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance). A particularly large and slow creature might get a smaller miss chance. If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has not pinpointed, have the player choose the space where the character will direct the attack. If the invisible creature is there, conduct the attack normally. If the enemy’s not there, roll the miss chance as if it were there, don’t let the player see the result, and tell him that the character has missed. That way the player doesn’t know whether the attack missed because the enemy’s not there or because you successfully rolled the miss chance. If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour fell off or blew away). An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible. Invisible creatures leave tracks. They can be tracked normally. Footprints in sand, mud, or other soft surfaces can give enemies clues to an invisible creature’s location. An invisible creature in the water displaces water, revealing its location. The invisible creature, however, is still hard to see and benefits from concealment. A creature with the scent ability can detect an invisible creature as it would a visible one. A creature with the Blind-Fight feat has a better chance to hit an invisible creature. Roll the miss chance twice, and he misses only if both rolls indicate a miss. (Alternatively, make one 25% miss chance roll rather than two 50% miss chance rolls.) A creature with blindsight can attack (and otherwise interact with) creatures regardless of invisibility. An invisible burning torch still gives off light, as does an invisible object with a light spell (or similar spell) cast upon it. Ethereal creatures are invisible. Since ethereal creatures are not materially present, Spot checks, Listen checks, Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don’t help locate them. Incorporeal creatures are often invisible. Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don’t help creatures find or attack invisible, incorporeal creatures, but Spot checks and possibly Listen checks can help. Invisible creatures cannot use gaze attacks. Invisibility does not thwart detect spells. Since some creatures can detect or even see invisible creatures, it is helpful to be able to hide even when invisible.
UnrelentingHoror 09-19-07, 02:45 AM	Well it seems like a big battlefield but with as noisy as that cleric is I don't think the big DC alterations on the listen check for range would matter with that roll. The wizard would have to guess the general area the cleric was in, which it sounds like he did, and if the cleric happened to be in the area of the fireball its resolved like normal. Heck seeing that the cleric was probably in something that would restrict his movement the wizard could probably be justified in dropping a fireball where the cleric was when he cast the spell knowing he may verry well not be able to get out of the blast radius. The listen check just kind of helped him adjust where might put the fireball a little. So yeah cleric gets a reflex save, but gets hit by the fireball assumeing the wizard guesses right. Which with the info he had is verry verry possible.
ArcTan 09-19-07, 02:59 AM	Ahoy! How would you handle the attempt to aim a Fireball at an invisible attacker 200 ft. away? Here's the situation that led to some debate at our gaming table: A human wizard is running down a city street. It is an overcast night, but the wizard carries a Continual Flame. There is some fighting going on, and a horde of guards is running around trying to find a hidden rogue. The wizard is trying to reach a nearby house where an ally appears to be involved in a fight with another wizard. A cleric, Air Walking 200 ft. above the wizard, casts Spiritual Weapon to attack the running wizard. The cleric is protected by Greater Invisibility and wearing medium armor (Move Silently skill -5). After casting the spell, he half-moves 20 ft. to the side. The wizard rolls a Listen check (result 25) to detect the attacker and tries to aim a Fireball at him - but does he hit him? All participants are experienced combatants; the wizard has heard of a recent aerial attack on his city. The rule set ist D&D 3.5, the three Core Books and all Eberron specific rules are being used (and abused). How'd you handle the situation? Thanks for all your answers! Did you roll a Move Silently check for the Cleric? That's the important part -- here, as always, Listen checks to detect an opponent are opposed checks. In order to pinpoint the opponent's location with Listen, he needs to beat the Cleric's Move Silently check by at least 20. If he does (i.e. the Cleric rolls a Move Silently of 5 or lower) he then knows what square the Cleric is in and can fire the fireball directly at it. If he *doesn't*, then all he knows is the Cleric is "there somewhere". His check is high enough to pinpoint where the Cleric was when the Cleric cast spiritual weapon, unless the Cleric used Silent Spell to cast it (if not, verbal components count as speaking, and the DC to locate a creature actively speaking or making noise is always 20). He can fire a fireball at where the Cleric was *before* he moved. The fireball has a 20-ft radius, and he moved exactly 20 feet, so this is a bit of a problem, because D&D's grid rules handle these edge cases poorly. The fireball can't actually be fired at a square, but at a grid intersection, which could be any of the four corners of the square -- if it's a corner nearer the Cleric, then the Cleric gets hit by the fireball; if not, it misses. You might just want to roll for it, with a 50% chance (which is really the fair way to decide if someone gets *just beyond* the radius of a burst effect when it goes off). The relevant rule for handling pinpointing invisible creatures with the Listen skill is here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility
ArcTan 09-19-07, 03:02 AM	Well it seems like a big battlefield but with as noisy as that cleric is I don't think the big DC alterations on the listen check for range would matter with that roll. The wizard would have to guess the general area the cleric was in, which it sounds like he did, and if the cleric happened to be in the area of the fireball its resolved like normal. Heck seeing that the cleric was probably in something that would restrict his movement the wizard could probably be justified in dropping a fireball where the cleric was when he cast the spell knowing he may verry well not be able to get out of the blast radius. The listen check just kind of helped him adjust where might put the fireball a little. So yeah cleric gets a reflex save, but gets hit by the fireball assumeing the wizard guesses right. Which with the info he had is verry verry possible. If the Cleric gets a 5 or lower on Move Silently, the Wizard can pinpoint his location and just shoot a fireball at it. If he doesn't, then the Wizard knows *nothing* except where the Cleric was *when he cast his spell*. The problem is that he doesn't know which direction the Cleric went, and the Cleric, who is using air walk, could have gone in any direction in three dimensions. The Wizard's best bet is to just shoot at where the Cleric cast spiritual weapon and 1) hope the Cleric has a move speed of 20 or less, and 2) hope that if the Cleric has a move speed of 20, he happens to be "just caught" by the fireball's explosion rather than "just missed" by it.
Vegepygmy 09-19-07, 03:37 AM	In order to pinpoint the opponent's location with Listen, he needs to beat the Cleric's Move Silently check by at least 20. If he does (i.e. the Cleric rolls a Move Silently of 5 or lower) he then knows what square the Cleric is in and can fire the fireball directly at it.I'm assuming the wizard's Listen check result of 25 doesn't include the -20 penalty for distance. That means the effective DC of the check to pinpoint the cleric is 35 + whatever the cleric rolls on a d20 (or 0 if he's targeting off the spell's Verbal component). My expectation would be that the best the wizard could do is determine that the cleric is "over there somewhere." In which case, I (as DM) would simply ask the wizard how far he's shooting the fireball in "that direction." If he aimed it within 20 feet of the cleric's distance (200 feet), I'd give him a 20% chance of catching the cleric in its radius. If he aimed it within 10 feet, I'd give him a 50% chance, and if he said exactly 200 feet I'd make it 100%.
True Archon 09-19-07, 07:12 AM	Ahoy! How would you handle the attempt to aim a Fireball at an invisible attacker 200 ft. away? Here's the situation that led to some debate at our gaming table: A human wizard is running down a city street. It is an overcast night, but the wizard carries a Continual Flame. There is some fighting going on, and a horde of guards is running around trying to find a hidden rogue. The wizard is trying to reach a nearby house where an ally appears to be involved in a fight with another wizard. A cleric, Air Walking 200 ft. above the wizard, casts Spiritual Weapon to attack the running wizard. The cleric is protected by Greater Invisibility and wearing medium armor (Move Silently skill -5). After casting the spell, he half-moves 20 ft. to the side. The wizard rolls a Listen check (result 25) to detect the attacker and tries to aim a Fireball at him - but does he hit him? All participants are experienced combatants; the wizard has heard of a recent aerial attack on his city. The rule set ist D&D 3.5, the three Core Books and all Eberron specific rules are being used (and abused). How'd you handle the situation? Thanks for all your answers! The Listen and Invisibility rules from the SRD for convenience: LISTEN (WIS) Check: Your Listen check is either made against a DC that reflects how quiet the noise is that you might hear, or it is opposed by your target’s Move Silently check. Listen DC Sound –10 A battle 0 People talking1 5 A person in medium armor walking at a slow pace (10 ft./round) trying not to make any noise. 10 An unarmored person walking at a slow pace (15 ft./round) trying not to make any noise 15 A 1st-level rogue using Move Silently to sneak past the listener 15 People whispering1 19 A cat stalking 30 An owl gliding in for a kill 1 If you beat the DC by 10 or more, you can make out what’s being said, assuming that you understand the language. Listen DC Modifier Condition +5 Through a door +15 Through a stone wall +1 Per 10 feet of distance +5 Listener distracted In the case of people trying to be quiet, the DCs given on the table could be replaced by Move Silently checks, in which case the indicated DC would be their average check result. Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to hear something in a reactive manner (such as when someone makes a noise or you move into a new area), you can make a Listen check without using an action. Trying to hear something you failed to hear previously is a move action. Try Again: Yes. You can try to hear something that you failed to hear previously with no penalty. Special: When several characters are listening to the same thing, a single 1d20 roll can be used for all the individuals’ Listen checks. A fascinated creature takes a –4 penalty on Listen checks made as reactions. If you have the Alertness feat, you get a +2 bonus on Listen checks. A ranger gains a bonus on Listen checks when using this skill against a favored enemy. An elf, gnome, or halfling has a +2 racial bonus on Listen checks. A half-elf has a +1 racial bonus on Listen checks. A sleeping character may make Listen checks at a –10 penalty. A successful check awakens the sleeper. INVISIBILITY The ability to move about unseen is not foolproof. While they can’t be seen, invisible creatures can be heard, smelled, or felt. Invisibility makes a creature undetectable by vision, including darkvision. Invisibility does not, by itself, make a creature immune to critical hits, but it does make the creature immune to extra damage from being a ranger’s favored enemy and from sneak attacks. A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance). A creature can use hearing to find an invisible creature. A character can make a Listen check for this purpose as a free action each round. A Listen check result at least equal to the invisible creature’s Move Silently check result reveals its presence. (A creature with no ranks in Move Silently makes a Move Silently check as a Dexterity check to which an armor check penalty applies.) A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creatureÂ’s location. Table: Listen Check DCs to Detect Invisible Creatures Invisible Creature Is . . . DC In combat or speaking 0 Moving at half speed Move Silently check result Moving at full speed Move Silently check result –4 Running or charging Move Silently check result –20 Some distance away +1 per 10 feet Behind an obstacle (door) +5 Behind an obstacle (stone wall) +15 A creature can grope about to find an invisible creature. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent 5-foot squares using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature’s current location. (If the invisible creature moves, its location, obviously, is once again unknown.) If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck still knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location. If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance). A particularly large and slow creature might get a smaller miss chance. If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has not pinpointed, have the player choose the space where the character will direct the attack. If the invisible creature is there, conduct the attack normally. If the enemy’s not there, roll the miss chance as if it were there, don’t let the player see the result, and tell him that the character has missed. That way the player doesn’t know whether the attack missed because the enemy’s not there or because you successfully rolled the miss chance. If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour fell off or blew away). An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible. Invisible creatures leave tracks. They can be tracked normally. Footprints in sand, mud, or other soft surfaces can give enemies clues to an invisible creature’s location. An invisible creature in the water displaces water, revealing its location. The invisible creature, however, is still hard to see and benefits from concealment. A creature with the scent ability can detect an invisible creature as it would a visible one. A creature with the Blind-Fight feat has a better chance to hit an invisible creature. Roll the miss chance twice, and he misses only if both rolls indicate a miss. (Alternatively, make one 25% miss chance roll rather than two 50% miss chance rolls.) A creature with blindsight can attack (and otherwise interact with) creatures regardless of invisibility. An invisible burning torch still gives off light, as does an invisible object with a light spell (or similar spell) cast upon it. Ethereal creatures are invisible. Since ethereal creatures are not materially present, Spot checks, Listen checks, Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don’t help locate them. Incorporeal creatures are often invisible. Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don’t help creatures find or attack invisible, incorporeal creatures, but Spot checks and possibly Listen checks can help. Invisible creatures cannot use gaze attacks. Invisibility does not thwart detect spells. Since some creatures can detect or even see invisible creatures, it is helpful to be able to hide even when invisible. Okay. First, I'd set the Listen check DC for the wizard at 20. The reason is that the cleric is casting spiritual weapon, which has a verbal component that must be spoken in a strong voice (DC 0). The distance adds +20 to the DC (or -20 to the wizard's die roll), if the cleric is right above the wizard. This would be a "reactive manner", and would not require an action. If the wizard succeeds on his Listen check, he now knows that there is a someone casting spells above him. Now, the question is: Does the wizard even know that the spellcaster is invisible? It is an overcast night, and continual flame only has a shadowy radius of 40 ft. With low-light vision, that's a shadowy illumination of 80 ft. For all the wizard knows, the cleric could be beyond visual range. Anyways, if the wizard hears the cleric's spellcasting, now I would have the wizard make an opposed Listen check vs. the cleric's Move Silently skill if the cleric is trying to move quietly. I'm guessing that the cleric is trying to be quiet, because he only moved half his movement. For run of the mill enemies, I typically assume that the enemies roll a 10 for their rolls, and then add in their skill modifiers, just to save time. BBEGs, I usually roll all of their checks. So, the wizard would roll his Listen check (which I would assume is a 25 from your post). The DC is going to be: Cleric's Move Silently check (with -5 armor check penalty) + 20 (for distance). If the Listen check of 25 beats the DC, then the wizard knows that the cleric is "somewhere over there." With a 20 ft. radius spread of fireball, chances are that the wizard is going to hit the cleric, even if he doesn't know the exact location of the cleric. However, if the second Listen check doesn't succeed, the wizard only knows that the last location he heard the cleric was where the cleric was spellcasting "somewhere over there." If the wizard decides to cast the fireball in that region, I would determine where the cleric actually is after moving, probably give the wizard a random 30'x30' square in and around the region where the cleric was when he cast the spiritual weapon, and tell him that he heard the spellcasting "somewhere in there." I'd then ask the wizard where he wants to center his fireball, and then determine if the cleric is still within it's explosive spread. As far as I can tell, it's going to be extremely difficult for the wizard to pick out the general location of the cleric without succeeding on both Listen checks.
Nom 09-19-07, 08:02 AM	As for the bigger picture, spiritual weapon requires line of sight, so just get indoors, even temporarily. Or use dimension door. Another useful trick is to summon an unseen servant or similar to carry the torch for you.
Just_some_Evil_Wizard 09-19-07, 01:19 PM	I thank you all for your answers! ArcTan, your comment about the actual positioning of the Fireball.... that's something I really didn't think about - might have helped at the moment, as the GM (I played the cleric btw) said the wizard heard the casting and based his attack on that... Didn't even ask for a Move Silently check. As for avoiding the Spiritual Weapon: The wizard apparently had not only a somewhat suspiciously good Listen check but also spell resistance... whatever the reason for that might have been. *cough* Well, good and bad days - that was a bad one. But at least I don't feel alone anymore in finding it at least a liiiiiittle bit difficult to target by hearing alone.
ArcTan 09-19-07, 04:23 PM	I'm assuming the wizard's Listen check result of 25 doesn't include the -20 penalty for distance. That means the effective DC of the check to pinpoint the cleric is 35 + whatever the cleric rolls on a d20 (or 0 if he's targeting off the spell's Verbal component). Yeah, good catch. I forgot about that. This actually means the Wizard doesn't even know where the Cleric was when he cast his spell -- the distance precluded it. (The check DC to pinpoint becomes 40, not 20.) My expectation would be that the best the wizard could do is determine that the cleric is "over there somewhere." In which case, I (as DM) would simply ask the wizard how far he's shooting the fireball in "that direction." If he aimed it within 20 feet of the cleric's distance (200 feet), I'd give him a 20% chance of catching the cleric in its radius. If he aimed it within 10 feet, I'd give him a 50% chance, and if he said exactly 200 feet I'd make it 100%. I wouldn't make the probabilities so high. The Cleric is, after all, now 20 feet away from where he was when the Wizard got the vague idea he was "over there somewhere", and fireball only has a 20-foot-radius. The Wizard has to aim in three dimensions, not just one -- if he fires even a little above or below or to the left or to the right, that's also going to miss the Cleric. I would say that, in a situation like this, the Wizard's chance of catching the Cleric in a fireball are pretty low, if he just fires one off toward the "over there somewhere". I'd probably make it as low as a 10% chance to hit.
ArcTan 09-19-07, 04:24 PM	I thank you all for your answers! ArcTan, your comment about the actual positioning of the Fireball.... that's something I really didn't think about - might have helped at the moment, as the GM (I played the cleric btw) said the wizard heard the casting and based his attack on that... Didn't even ask for a Move Silently check. As for avoiding the Spiritual Weapon: The wizard apparently had not only a somewhat suspiciously good Listen check but also spell resistance... whatever the reason for that might have been. *cough* Well, good and bad days - that was a bad one. But at least I don't feel alone anymore in finding it at least a liiiiiittle bit difficult to target by hearing alone. Yeah, realistically, all he would know is that you were "over there somewhere". Not nearly enough information to target you, especially with an area spell whose effect is only a 20-foot sphere -- not if you were 200 feet away, invisible, and moving three-dimensionally.
Archangel_Tyrael 09-19-07, 05:05 PM	bah... it's been covered. DC 40 and all that...