Alchemist Fire And Catapults! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alchemist Fire And Catapults! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Student Of The Mind
08-05-04, 07:20 PM Alchemist fire has always been a bit of a gimmick item, for me anyways. Then I began to let the wheels turn, and thought about putting a flask of alchemist fire into a sling. A pretty cool option for that gnome wizard that would have a really hard time killing a fly with any kind of strength. It gives the flask a better range increment, and it just a better way to use the container of alchemists fire, in my opinion.

A direct hit deals 1d6 points of fire damage, every creature within 5 feet of the point where the flask hits takes 1 point of fire damage from the splash. On the round following a direct hit, the target takes an additional 1d6 points of damage.

Could be pretty nasty at a range increment of 50 ft., but what would happen if you placed a dozen or more within a loose knitted (sp) bag then put that bag within a catapult scoop? If the container came apart in mid flight, what would the area of effect be and how would it be determined?

Could some of you brainiacs out there break out your calculators and punch me up your opinions? I think it would be a great siege device to slaughter any that would stop an invasion.

Opinions, and comments are appreciated!
Seeker95
08-05-04, 07:45 PM Put the flasks into the catapult. Allow a 5' spread per X feet travelled. Use the splash weapon miss chart in the DMG to generate a splash pattern.

I would say 5' spread for each 20' traveled. If you have a dozen flasks, just roll to see which squares each one landed in. Each flask still does 1d6 damage if it hits a target, and 1 point to all within 5'.
Student Of The Mind
08-05-04, 08:11 PM Excellent, Thank you. I'm sure my players will appreciate the information you've provided! ::wicked laughter::

Has anybody tried this before?
Mitchell
08-06-04, 01:44 AM Okay, one at a time.
1) Slinging a flask of alchemists fire isn't like slinging a stone, much less a bullet. Yes, you get better range, but your accuracy won't be near as good.

2) If you load up a catapult, spread will be huge, and flasks will hit short as well as long. Controlling the spread is virtually impossible if you don't contain the parts, then you have the inherent inaccuracy of the catapult on top of that. It's viable, if not efficient, if you are laying siege to a large city. You just point in the general direction and fire, hoping that at least 50% of the payload makes the walls. Where it hits is less important than if it hits. Trying to use this strategy against a small unit, such as an adventuring party, is very questionable.

3) DM deviousness can come back to haunt you. If you use this against the players, they may try it themselves one day. You will have a hard time saying no, since you did it yourself. The big question now is, is it worth it? If you have ideas for the players to take a city, you may want to think again. It isn't about how much of Gods wrath can you direct towards the players. The answer is, as far as the game goes, all of it. You know this, the players know this, you don't have to prove it.

4) Large barrels of alchemist fire are more efficient. :smirk:
Student Of The Mind
08-06-04, 02:10 AM Yes a barrel would be much more efficient, I had thought about that but didnt wanna get a head of myself.

And about the slinging of a flask, yeah I know the dynamics of the object would cut the range to about half, but 25 ft compared to 10 ft is a great improvement.

I dont plan on giving them any chance of taking on a city, specially since they are about to venture into a dungeon that rivals even UnderMountain! So they shouldnt have much of a chance to take the inventions toward a walled city. They are about to enter a HUGE dwarven greeting hall...approx: 200 ft wide-100 ft tall-300 ft in length with several leveled balconies perfect for ambush and there are heavy catapults aimed with fairly accurate precision at the large double doors leading to the outside from the farthest wall. It's an old stronghold taken over by a few vicious brilliant NPC BBEG's.

I'm trying not to be completely mean, but it has been a while since I've DMed a game and am trying to bring back the 10+ years of DMing experience. If I kill them outright, I wont feel to bad but will know I need to tone it down a bit.
Simetrical
08-06-04, 03:47 AM Controlling the spread is virtually impossible if you don't contain the parts . . . ~Mitchell

I don't know what you mean by "contain the parts," but it's definitely possible to create a mechanism to make the spread tighter. I'm just not sure if a crude version could be plausibly made with medieval technology levels.
Sweet Steph
08-06-04, 04:50 AM Tightening the spread is rather simple; all one needs to do is weave the flasks into a wide net of ropes. While the spread itself will still be random, it will be limited by the size of the net, and the flasks will not spread any farther apart than the ropes allow.
Student Of The Mind
08-06-04, 04:54 AM Here's another question for any who might read this. The spread effect of a single flask of Alchemist Fire is 5ft, but what would it be for a clay jug full of alchemist fire? I know there are a lot of variables in this formula, but does anybody have any suggestions?

A flask holds 1 pint of liquid and weighs 1 lb with alchemist fire contained. Now if one flask has an area effect of 5ft, would each extra pint of AF add 2.5ft to the area of effect, or less? If so what would the spread of a clay jug be that holds 1 gallon of AF?

Now if all of those factors are true, what would the spread effect of a barrel be that holds 20 gallons of AF?

Suggestions and comments are appreciated, I lost my scientific calculator and brain when I left school so I need others to figure out my math problems! LoL!
green_yawgmoth
08-06-04, 05:30 AM I would say find the area of a 5 ft circle, then multiply that by 8 for the area of 1 gallon of AF.

http://img30.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Student Of The Mind
08-06-04, 06:06 AM Radius? Diameter? Or circumference?

As Mitchell eluded to, if I allow something it can come back to bite my posterior...So I have to limit myself, so that I can limit my players...Within reason anyways.

Given that, I would only allow the radius of the 5ft area of effect, meaning that each pint would add another 2.5ft and add up to a 1 gallon container bursting over out with a 20ft radius, effecting a total diameter of 40ft.

Does this sound accurate? Or reasonable?

And even more important, what would the damage be? 1d6 plus another d6 after the first round unless they extinguish themselves? What about a saving throw, Reflex Save of 15?
ninja1
08-06-04, 01:38 PM alchemist fire sling bullets make an appearance in Arms and Equipment Guide.

IIRC, it imposes a -2 to hit.... and I think 1d4 +1 dmg?

Did alchemist fire in catapults make an appearance in the Strongholds Guide??
green_yawgmoth
08-06-04, 06:13 PM Originally posted by Student Of The Mind
Radius? Diameter? Or circumference? Area. A = (pi)R^2 (I think. I haven't done this in a very long time). So if it's a 5ft diameter circle, that a 2.5 ft radius, which gives us about a 19.63 sq. ft. area. Then the area would be 157 sqft for 1 gallon of AF, which is about a 15ft diameter circle. So you'd be covering about 9 squares.

Edited for spelling.

http://img30.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Student Of The Mind
08-06-04, 06:25 PM LoL...Yeah I havent done this kinda math in about six years, damn that makes me feel old.

Thanks for your help, that sounds a bit better than a 20ft radius.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Student Of The Mind 08-05-04, 07:20 PM	Alchemist fire has always been a bit of a gimmick item, for me anyways. Then I began to let the wheels turn, and thought about putting a flask of alchemist fire into a sling. A pretty cool option for that gnome wizard that would have a really hard time killing a fly with any kind of strength. It gives the flask a better range increment, and it just a better way to use the container of alchemists fire, in my opinion. A direct hit deals 1d6 points of fire damage, every creature within 5 feet of the point where the flask hits takes 1 point of fire damage from the splash. On the round following a direct hit, the target takes an additional 1d6 points of damage. Could be pretty nasty at a range increment of 50 ft., but what would happen if you placed a dozen or more within a loose knitted (sp) bag then put that bag within a catapult scoop? If the container came apart in mid flight, what would the area of effect be and how would it be determined? Could some of you brainiacs out there break out your calculators and punch me up your opinions? I think it would be a great siege device to slaughter any that would stop an invasion. Opinions, and comments are appreciated!
Seeker95 08-05-04, 07:45 PM	Put the flasks into the catapult. Allow a 5' spread per X feet travelled. Use the splash weapon miss chart in the DMG to generate a splash pattern. I would say 5' spread for each 20' traveled. If you have a dozen flasks, just roll to see which squares each one landed in. Each flask still does 1d6 damage if it hits a target, and 1 point to all within 5'.
Student Of The Mind 08-05-04, 08:11 PM	Excellent, Thank you. I'm sure my players will appreciate the information you've provided! ::wicked laughter:: Has anybody tried this before?
Mitchell 08-06-04, 01:44 AM	Okay, one at a time. 1) Slinging a flask of alchemists fire isn't like slinging a stone, much less a bullet. Yes, you get better range, but your accuracy won't be near as good. 2) If you load up a catapult, spread will be huge, and flasks will hit short as well as long. Controlling the spread is virtually impossible if you don't contain the parts, then you have the inherent inaccuracy of the catapult on top of that. It's viable, if not efficient, if you are laying siege to a large city. You just point in the general direction and fire, hoping that at least 50% of the payload makes the walls. Where it hits is less important than if it hits. Trying to use this strategy against a small unit, such as an adventuring party, is very questionable. 3) DM deviousness can come back to haunt you. If you use this against the players, they may try it themselves one day. You will have a hard time saying no, since you did it yourself. The big question now is, is it worth it? If you have ideas for the players to take a city, you may want to think again. It isn't about how much of Gods wrath can you direct towards the players. The answer is, as far as the game goes, all of it. You know this, the players know this, you don't have to prove it. 4) Large barrels of alchemist fire are more efficient. :smirk:
Student Of The Mind 08-06-04, 02:10 AM	Yes a barrel would be much more efficient, I had thought about that but didnt wanna get a head of myself. And about the slinging of a flask, yeah I know the dynamics of the object would cut the range to about half, but 25 ft compared to 10 ft is a great improvement. I dont plan on giving them any chance of taking on a city, specially since they are about to venture into a dungeon that rivals even UnderMountain! So they shouldnt have much of a chance to take the inventions toward a walled city. They are about to enter a HUGE dwarven greeting hall...approx: 200 ft wide-100 ft tall-300 ft in length with several leveled balconies perfect for ambush and there are heavy catapults aimed with fairly accurate precision at the large double doors leading to the outside from the farthest wall. It's an old stronghold taken over by a few vicious brilliant NPC BBEG's. I'm trying not to be completely mean, but it has been a while since I've DMed a game and am trying to bring back the 10+ years of DMing experience. If I kill them outright, I wont feel to bad but will know I need to tone it down a bit.
Simetrical 08-06-04, 03:47 AM	Controlling the spread is virtually impossible if you don't contain the parts . . . ~Mitchell I don't know what you mean by "contain the parts," but it's definitely possible to create a mechanism to make the spread tighter. I'm just not sure if a crude version could be plausibly made with medieval technology levels.
Sweet Steph 08-06-04, 04:50 AM	Tightening the spread is rather simple; all one needs to do is weave the flasks into a wide net of ropes. While the spread itself will still be random, it will be limited by the size of the net, and the flasks will not spread any farther apart than the ropes allow.
Student Of The Mind 08-06-04, 04:54 AM	Here's another question for any who might read this. The spread effect of a single flask of Alchemist Fire is 5ft, but what would it be for a clay jug full of alchemist fire? I know there are a lot of variables in this formula, but does anybody have any suggestions? A flask holds 1 pint of liquid and weighs 1 lb with alchemist fire contained. Now if one flask has an area effect of 5ft, would each extra pint of AF add 2.5ft to the area of effect, or less? If so what would the spread of a clay jug be that holds 1 gallon of AF? Now if all of those factors are true, what would the spread effect of a barrel be that holds 20 gallons of AF? Suggestions and comments are appreciated, I lost my scientific calculator and brain when I left school so I need others to figure out my math problems! LoL!
green_yawgmoth 08-06-04, 05:30 AM	I would say find the area of a 5 ft circle, then multiply that by 8 for the area of 1 gallon of AF. http://img30.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Student Of The Mind 08-06-04, 06:06 AM	Radius? Diameter? Or circumference? As Mitchell eluded to, if I allow something it can come back to bite my posterior...So I have to limit myself, so that I can limit my players...Within reason anyways. Given that, I would only allow the radius of the 5ft area of effect, meaning that each pint would add another 2.5ft and add up to a 1 gallon container bursting over out with a 20ft radius, effecting a total diameter of 40ft. Does this sound accurate? Or reasonable? And even more important, what would the damage be? 1d6 plus another d6 after the first round unless they extinguish themselves? What about a saving throw, Reflex Save of 15?
ninja1 08-06-04, 01:38 PM	alchemist fire sling bullets make an appearance in Arms and Equipment Guide. IIRC, it imposes a -2 to hit.... and I think 1d4 +1 dmg? Did alchemist fire in catapults make an appearance in the Strongholds Guide??
green_yawgmoth 08-06-04, 06:13 PM	Originally posted by Student Of The Mind Radius? Diameter? Or circumference? Area. A = (pi)R^2 (I think. I haven't done this in a very long time). So if it's a 5ft diameter circle, that a 2.5 ft radius, which gives us about a 19.63 sq. ft. area. Then the area would be 157 sqft for 1 gallon of AF, which is about a 15ft diameter circle. So you'd be covering about 9 squares. Edited for spelling. http://img30.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Student Of The Mind 08-06-04, 06:25 PM	LoL...Yeah I havent done this kinda math in about six years, damn that makes me feel old. Thanks for your help, that sounds a bit better than a 20ft radius.