Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Slayer of Angels 04-04-05, 11:55 PM	Hello, and thanks for looking at my humble little question. How are you? *shrug* Anyhoo, This one has been my Eleanore, my Unicorn, the item I most desire: A ring with multiple effects. Namely the following at-will use spells: Fabricate Prestidigitation Animate Object Polymorph Any Object As I mentioned, I'd like all 4 on a single ring, all of which being at-will use, and unlimited uses. Essentially, I'd be the Full Metal Alchemist with that, but I'd just like to make it so I could re-shape almost anything at will. No need for the fancy circles to make a house out of sand and trees, y'know? Wow, Now actually there's an idea, build stuff and sell it, can we say Infinate money cheat? I'd be the king in the goods-producing sector of the economy as a whole in my dimension! :king: So the fundamental questions: Is it possible? What would it's price be? (buy it, not make it.) What would it cost? (Make it, not buy it.) :twitch: Thanks a whole lot. I posted once before and got a lot of really great answers, y'all are a heap of help. Thanks again. :w00t:
PhaedrusXY 04-05-05, 03:32 AM	General cost of a Magic Item that casts a spell at will (Command Word activated): caster level x spell level x 1800 Fabricate Prestidigitation Animate Object Polymorph Any Object PaO at will: 15x8x1800 = 216,000 (already epic) Fabricate: 9x5x1800= 81,000 Animate Object: 11x6x1800= 118,800 Prestidigitation: 0.5x1x1800= 900 All secondary abilities are multiplied by 1.5, so the total is: 216,000 + (81,000 + 118,800 + 900)x1.5 = 517,050 Divide that cost in half for what it would cost to make it yourself. It is technically an epic magic item, though, so you'd need Craft Epic Ring. I also didn't figure in any costly material components or XP costs, as I don't think those spells have them, and didn't bother looking it up.
EvilVegan 04-05-05, 03:39 AM	Did you forget to double the cost for it being a ring?
PhaedrusXY 04-05-05, 03:44 AM	Did you forget to double the cost for it being a ring?Why would that double the cost? It takes up a slot... Slotless items are the ones that get the cost doubled.
BaelinWhale 04-05-05, 04:15 AM	Based on my calculations, that item would cost roughly more than 500,000 gp (Polymorph any Object alone would cost roughly 250k while all other spell powers have their cost multiplied by 50%. Also considering the potential abuse of such an item in practical game and combat applications, I'd be inclined to bump up the cost even further. In any case, with access to that kind of money, you don't really need this puppy. Both Fabricate and Polymorph any Object cannot be used to create objects of great intrinsic value. Fabricate can be used to convert something to gold, but the material to be fabricated must still cost the same as the end product (law of equivalent trade). You could of course, Fabricate one material to another material, then attempt to Polymorph it (as a Craft check). Of course, you could just as easily do the same by crafting the object manually, so spending all that money on an item like to make even more money is self-defeating. Chances are you won't really see any profit from this venture unless you give up adventuring and spend your entire life crafting stuff. Final Comment: You'd be better off playing a Sorcerer Knowing those spells.
bomaz 04-05-05, 07:06 AM	does polymorph any object enable you to transform say cp to gp permanently? to me it seems like it
Slayer of Angels 04-05-05, 11:46 AM	How much can it cost before it's epic? I thought it was 300 or 30 K. Something like that. Also, can I just use a few wishes to give it further powers, like the spell description expresses? (May be used to grant an item further powers) Oh, and just a thought, don't share ideas with the members of your party unless it's really important. Reason being, now the party artificer wants to make a ring of Animate Object/Permanancy so he can make an army of permanantly living rocks. I think he's insane, nuts and just morbid. But that's not regarding putting Permanancy on the ring as a castable ability. No, it's because of his plan for how to use his animal-shaped scraps of material. As he played out for my imagination: Art: "My army of itty-bitty animal toys marches right into the Dragon's cave." DM: "The Dragon sees this and becomes confused." Art: "Should you roll to determine the effects of being confused?" DM: "Um, Sure. Why not?" The DM rolls the D4... grunts, then Rolls it again. Art: "What's going on?" DM: "The dragon is supposed to turn around and fly full speed the opposite direction." Art: "He's in a cave!" DM: "I now, that's why I rolled twice. The second time to determine how many rounds he's knocked out." Me: "Why does this sound like a sick Jim Carrey movie?" Yeah, I'm sad to say our DM would go along with that. So I'd like a little emergency feedback to show our DM and hopefully prevent a farce. We're not adventuring any more, we're throwing the common image of a hero right out the window and putting a goose in it's place! :weep: :tissue:
PhaedrusXY 04-05-05, 04:34 PM	How much can it cost before it's epic? I thought it was 300 or 30 K. Something like that. Also, can I just use a few wishes to give it further powers, like the spell description expresses? (May be used to grant an item further powers) Items are considered "epic" if their market price is 200K or more. Yeah, you could create a weaker version and then use Wish to add powers to it, but exactly how that works is entirely up to the DM, as it isn't really explained well in the Wish spell description. I really like the idea of making a magic item that casts Animate Objects and Permanency at will and making an army of animated objects, though. :D I'd thought of making an epic spell to do that, and using it in a game with an NPC to make an army of statues and then have him try to take over the world with them. But now that you mention it, this would be alot easier.
Slayer of Angels 04-05-05, 09:58 PM	Yeah, that's just a good idea overall, but if you want something really unique, try putting Stone to flesh on it as well. That way you can have someone fabricate a million-odd statues that look like real people (like those Japanese Terracotta warriors, y'know?) then cast animate object and stone to flesh. They could be all human-like, or any creature you design, even an entirely new race. Just sculpt it and go. Hey, you could even sculpt new party members, or just a "personal assistant" like in the shape of a succubus, only of a good alignment, and without the wings. :love: :tongue: :drool: Or not, just a funny idea. Or did that just go too far?
Etiquette_Gnome 04-06-05, 02:46 AM	I don't believe the 200k rule applies when the pricing is based off of caster level (and it's below 20th level), so the price won't be increased in that manner. Of course, even at about the 517,000gp price of this item, it's a stupifying amount of money required. If your character is worried about having funds available, just don't make/buy the item and use that gold to live in disgusting opulence for the rest of an elven lifetime. Also, that formula is a guideline, and can easily be ignored for more appropriate costs. For a ring such as that, this kind of ring would easily fall into the artifact nature. Heck, a number of artifact aren't as powerful as that ring you theorize. Once you give it such a status, cost means nothing, and you have even more right to include whatever qualities inherent in it you want (bearer slowly goes mad, demons are attracted to it, etc).
PhaedrusXY 04-06-05, 02:51 AM	I don't believe the 200k rule applies when the pricing is based off of caster level (and it's below 20th level), so the price won't be increased in that manner.You're right. You don't multiply the price by 10, but that's not what I was saying. The item is still considered Epic, even without the x10 multiplier. Anything costing over 200k is by default Epic. Or an artifact, and I agree that this would make a very nice artifact. And I just noticed that I was way off in my math in the original post I made. Oops. :embarrass
bomaz 04-06-05, 03:55 AM	some items are just to powerful to allow players to create them take for example a ring of magic missile. at will. the wiz now always have a weapon. or perhaps a tatto with a permanent shapechange. or teleport at will. dominate person at will. he will fail that save at some point. and so on
MagykDragyn 04-06-05, 04:21 PM	some items are just to powerful to allow players to create them take for example a ring of magic missile. at will. the wiz now always have a weapon. or perhaps a tatto with a permanent shapechange. or teleport at will. dominate person at will. he will fail that save at some point. and so on Agreed that alot of items are powerful but some of your examples are not..Take your ring of magic missile at will..A warlock can fire Eldritch blasts all day long..so why shouldnt a wizard be able to do the same with a ring that could be dispelled or lost or stolen or any other various schemes.. Permanant shapechange...HMMMM...druid?? okay teleport at will I can see as being way to powerful as well as dominate person..thats why there are Illithid Slayers. Point being that in your eyes they may be too powerful but compared to some existing item or ability or race...it may not be to bad.
bomaz 04-06-05, 04:24 PM	staff of fireball. mohahaha. thats the warlock at lvl 21
Slayer of Angels 04-06-05, 04:30 PM	I dunno about that, An item may easily be too powerful to a certain level or class, but overall... I mean, Like your ring of magic missile at will, sounds like a fairly powerful item, sure. But I'm slowly creeping towards Epic level and most items that would initially seem too powerful really look mundane when fighting epic-level creatures now. :rolleyes: The whole point of having my Ring is to be able to merely handle, not even kill, just handle something like a Tarasque (which has already been decided upon. A bit of bad DMing on his part, but we've already decided that at some point we'll be seeing him. :eek: Fun...). Besides that, If you look in the Monsters forums, I mention that I was even pitted against Raziel once :angelhide . I got baked in the end :ahem: . I tried running to a cathedral, but he bucked me into the deepest pit of Hell he could find :pbbbtt: . Hence my new Character. If I'm to face something real nasty, I'd venture to say it's fair to grant me something to at least distance myself from said nasty thing. :rant: I'm off the subject. Sorry. :embarrass Anyhoo... One problem with the Artifact idea, wouldn't that spoil the point that most "artifacts" are incapable of being re-produced? And as such, merely producing them (being a mortal, human for that fact) would merely deem it as a wonderous item at best, no? :confused: Btw, is it bad to use excessive emoticons (smileys)?
bomaz 04-06-05, 04:33 PM	no tato shapechange. expensive as hell but hey thats a 10 lvl prestige class as the alternative
bomaz 04-06-05, 04:34 PM	things with a to usefull spell at will should often not be allowed. the game has rules for making new items but each item should be up to the dm
Slayer of Angels 04-06-05, 04:39 PM	I suppose... But that's why I'd probably have to make a ring of prestidigitation first (a mere 900 GP) then use up like 3 or 4 wishes on it to grant it the other abilities. I mean, 3 or 4 wishes :eek: ! A lot can be done with just 2 and I'm using up 4! Dunno 'bout you, but if I were the DM, I'd allow it for 4 wishes.
bomaz 04-06-05, 04:43 PM	I think it is way to powerful still but it is really up to your dm. just look at the infinite money thing. perhaps you should just have it cast polymorph any object and turn all copper into guld within 10 ft always? if you just get the make gold thing with polymorph you can then buy the rest of the wishes for free
Slayer of Angels 04-06-05, 09:49 PM	Hey, that's not a bad idea, thanks! Shucks, might as well turn rocks into platinum or diamonds while I'm at it. :P Hey, coal to diamonds makes a lot of sense, and if I need to go a step at a time, I can just turn trees into coal! Even if the DM puts a limit on how much of product "A" comes out of polymorphing product B, I'd never run out of rocks or trees, so it's not that bad an idea to just polymorph it all into platinum dust or diamonds and see the blacksmith or jeweler. I'd just give him a healthy chunk of the product as he's appraising it. Page 112 in the PHB even mentions how many GP a pound of Platinum costs. Does it mention anywhere even more exotic metals like Adamantine or Mithrill? And what about gems? And should I re-title this post as "infinite money scheme"? I hate to babble on like this but two more questions, what exactly IS the formula for determining magic item costs? Like level of spell times level of casting, times... Huh? Not too clear on that one. And does the ring need to be made of anything special or can all this be done with a penny with a hole drilled in it for a finger?
PhaedrusXY 04-07-05, 02:56 AM	I hate to babble on like this but two more questions, what exactly IS the formula for determining magic item costs? Like level of spell times level of casting, times... Huh? It's all in the SRD, in the first section on magic items. Here is a link: http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/MagicItemsI.rtf Also, you can't use Polymorph Any Object to crank out gold, or anything like that. Here is a line from the spell description: This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine. If the DM lets you turn one into the other, that's his business. But from a strict reading of the spell, it is impossible.
bomaz 04-07-05, 05:11 AM	ah thats better
Slayer of Angels 04-07-05, 04:46 PM	Hey PhaedrusXY, thanks, that link helped a ton. Well, Poly any Object might not, but what about other spells? ... Just thought of this, but in the Limits of Prestidigitation forum( http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=407852 ) it mentions a few things about it. The PHB says: Prestidigitations are minor tricks that novice spellcasters use for practice. Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour. The effects are minor and have severe limitations. A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material. It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round. It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material. It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters. Prestidigitation can create small objects, but they look crude and artificial. The materials created by a prestidigitation spell are extremely fragile, and they cannot be used as tools, weapons, or spell components. Finally, a prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects. Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour. Also, prestidigitation says it'll create small, crude items, but it doesn't specify out of what material... Broken, sure, but possible? Perhapse add "permanancy to the effect of "changing" it so it lasts more than an hour? And in Tome and blood it says "Change: You transform one object of Fine size or smaller into another object of roughly the same size. The object can weigh no more than 8 ounces." So accumulating 8 ounces of platinum at a time from sand would eventually build up over time, I'm sure. Oh, the WWW to the Tome and blood excerpt mentioning this is: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010707 If there are any other effects that can change stuff into matter of "intrinsic value", what might that be? Ooh scary fun... a ring of poly any/prestidigitation/fabricate/permant Start with 900 GP for ring of prestidigitation then wish Permanancy onto it... Just buy wishes with the dozens of 8-ounce sevings of platinum from there...
PhaedrusXY 04-07-05, 07:14 PM	The items created by Prestidigitation are not permanent, and cannot be made permanent unless the DM rules otherwise. If you really want cheesy ways to make alot of money in D&D, they exist. But they're not as easy as conjuring it out of thin air normally. You can use Wall of Iron to create a bunch of Iron, and then Fabricate it into masterwork suits of full plate. You'll need to have alot of ranks in Craft: Armorsmithing to do this, but you can make a good chunk of money with it, assuming you don't flood the market for fullplate. You could also go around building towers, walls around cities, and things like that using that combination of spells. I think you could do the same with Wall of Stone and Fabricate, if you don't want rusty walls. And then there is always going to mine the elemental plane of earth, which is what the PCs in my high level game are planning to try. I don't mind as a DM, because it can act as a springboard for all kinds of adventures there. (They surely aren't the first ones to think of it, and who knows how the inhabitants will react to them? ;) )
Slayer of Angels 04-07-05, 09:02 PM	That's an interesting idea. So then I suppose the real questions I should ask are: Can Fabricate seperate materials? (I.E. synthetically smelt earthen materials? Like pull the iron, or other minerals, out of dirt?) Is Fabricate capable of affecting all matter (even air/water?) or does it have it's limits? Can multiple materials be combined? And finally, wood is organic, but capable of being manipulated by Fabricate. Does this in turn mean that Fabricate can effect other organic materials? (Interesting way to harvest cows or defeat monsters perhapse?)