Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Storm 05-30-04, 10:53 PM	How much of a effect does casting aligned spells have on a character's alignment? Say I'm Neutral wizard (or sorcerer) and I cast Create Greater Undead. Does my alignment change to evil immediately, or do I just shift a couple "points" towards evil? Or not at all? What about an evil spellcaster casting Good spells? There's little in the PHB about this.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-30-04, 10:58 PM	The tags don't effect a character's alignment. They're there to interact with clerics, domains and spells such as Magic Circle vs X.
Dracoulis The Phyrexian 05-30-04, 11:12 PM	Well, casting a spell with an alignment descriptor is an [alignment] act. Thus, casting Create Greater Undead is indeed an Evil action. For most arcane casters, this isn't too big of a deal. If you're doing it all the time, though, you're probably already leaning towards Evil, and will eventually become so. One casting by itself isn't going to do it. Of course, if you create those undead and use them to raze a town and feast on the flesh of the victims, well...
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-30-04, 11:26 PM	There is nothing in the core rules to suggest that casting an [alignment] spell is an act of the type, same as casting an earth spell doesn't slowly turn you to stone.
Dracoulis The Phyrexian 05-31-04, 01:47 AM	Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland There is nothing in the core rules to suggest that casting an [alignment] spell is an act of the type, same as casting an earth spell doesn't slowly turn you to stone. Earth isn't an alignment. It isn't an act. An alignment, however, is an attitude, and can shape actions. Doing evil things makes a person evil, correct? And, well, creating undead is evil. You're voluntarily making a creature that hates all other living beings, including you! There's no moral ambiguity here! That's evil, plain and true! (You might have more of a point if we're talking about a spell that merely has it, and isn't really a good example of an Evil spell. Deathwatch would be an example. But that's neither here nor there.)
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-31-04, 04:53 AM	I said core. The undead stuff is all that thrice cursed book BoVD. No way undead creation should be evil. But the larger question is about all tagged spells. Would you even consider making a character shift to Good because they cast Magic Circle vs: Evil? Or Chaotic if the chast Entrophic Shield? If you wouldn't do it in either case, you have no case to do it in the cast of any other taggeed spell. Despite what pondits say, you do have to figure intent into actions for alignment. Are the undead being raised to slaughter townfolk or to watch his six in the dungeon?
J. Grenemyer 05-31-04, 04:55 AM	Hello, Originally posted by Storm How much of a effect does casting aligned spells have on a character's alignment? As a rule of thumb, I tend to view any such castings of [evil] or [chaotic] needing to be followed up with a good bit of reasoning from a goodly and/or lawful arcane or divine caster as to why such is necessary. That said, if an arcane spellcasting character can by such castings accomplish goals while keeping with his alignment, I don't push for alignment change. However, if the character is a divine caster, the bar must be raised a little higher, because such characters have their own divine precepts to follow in addition to their personal alignment. Originally posted by Storm Say I'm Neutral wizard (or sorcerer) and I cast Create Greater Undead. Does my alignment change to evil immediately, or do I just shift a couple "points" towards evil? Or not at all? What about an evil spellcaster casting Good spells? There's little in the PHB about this. There's little in the PHB on the subject because it's a Dungeon Master's prerogative. ;) As to your question: What are the circumstances? Is the Neutral Arcane caster's goal to guard his abode, attack his enemies or just to unleash a horrible foe on an unsuspecting world? And did he murder someone to get a suitable corpse, plunder one or more from a graveyard or take the body of an attacker he slew in self defense? These questions are worth asking because they help to figure out whether or not a character is keeping to his alignment. Which is to say I (as a DM) would deem it entirely appropriate for a Lawful Neutral Wizard to take the bodies of brigands who twice before attempted to break in to his Mage Tower and turn them into Ghouls tasked with standing outside and guarding the entrance to that tower. (They’ll serve a grim reminder to any fellow brigands come to check the status of their comrades!) I would find it entirely inappropriate for this same Wizard to steal bodies from a graveyard, animate them and turn them loose to hunt, "Anyone wearing a brigand's colors that rides the road nearest my tower," because our (Lawful) Wizard would have to break the law to get the bodies and would be sowing chaos along the trade road. See what I mean? Whereas a Goodly divine caster, even in the most extreme circumstances, has no reason to create, control or unleash such abominations. Originally posted by Vaalingrade Ashland The tags don't effect a character's alignment. They're there to interact with clerics, domains and spells such as Magic Circle vs X. This isn't entirely correct. The spell descriptors (Val's "tags") do indicate that a given spell is essentially "evil" or "chaotic". See the first sentence of Create Undead on page 215 of the 3.5 Player's Handbook for an example. :D Edit: spelling.
Dracoulis The Phyrexian 05-31-04, 06:15 AM	Actually, I've never read the BoVD, so anything I came up with about undead isn't from it. They're undead, man. They hate the living by definition of being undead. That's what they do! Thus, creating anything which hates everything living (including you) nearly has to be an evil effect. Period! You might have a point if we're talking about mindless undead. But not all undead are mindless. Certainly not any created by Create Greater Undead. Again, I should clarify: One casting of an aligned spell, or even several, is not going to change your alignment! It may or may not tip you towards a different alignment, but it's not going to do it by itself. However, if you're using aligned spells as your answer to every single thing that comes up, odds are that you really are that alignment, even if you claim you're not. Intent falls under that a lot. In fact, under most cases of casting those spells, the intent is usually to do something in accordance with that alignment. There are exceptions, yes, but that's the standard.
glenw77 05-31-04, 11:42 AM	Two posts have said that "undead hate the living." Could somebody please point out the core rule that says this? Granted some undead are hateful of the living but I have not seen anything that declairs that the undead subtype naturally hate the living. Am I missing the rules or is somebody expressing thier personal views as if they were facts?
TheGogmagog 05-31-04, 12:03 PM	To the original poster. Alignment and other descripters only have effects on other spells and ablilities that specify so. Casting [Evil] spells does not turn you Evil. This is by the CORE Rules as Written. I'll look up page numbers when I get a chance and post it. (feel free to site anyplace that says otherwise) Unfortunatly you chose Create Undead for your example instead of protection from evil. In second edition, The description of the spell specified that is was an evil act pulling the corpses soul back from beyond to animate the corpse, so elves with no souls could not be animated. 3 and 3.5 droped this graphic detail, and limitation. The Book of Vile Darkness (Monte Cook) brought the idea back in a sidebar, which as I understand Monte Cook didn't write. The undead hate the living is in the monster manual, if not under skeleton, under many undead descriptions (allip). The problem with Create Undead are the Undead are always (with few exceptions) evil. So the creation of an evil creature in itself is unlikely to be a good act. It has nothing to do with the [Evil] Descriptor. This is off the top of my head, I'm sure there are many more detailed histories if you search the plethora of discussions on how to make creating and dominateing undead a good act. Believe me, I have a White Necromancer (from 2e) that has a horible spell selection, and would Really like to be able to use the most notable necromancy spells.
Ainaelin 05-31-04, 01:33 PM	Hello! P. 33 of the PhB, under the Chaotic, Evil, Good and Lawful Spells title : A cleric can't cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity's (if he has one). For example a good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) cannot cast evil spells. Spells associated by particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good ans lawful descriptors in their spell descriptions. So, that answers at least part of the question, as far as Clerics are concerned... As for having an influence on the alignment, as others have said, nothing in the core rules say anything about it, as far as I can tell, except maybe that little sentence, p. 174 of the PhB, under the DESCRPTOR entry : Most of these descriptors have no game effects by themselves, but they govern how the spell interacts with other spells, with special abilities, with unusual creatures, with alignment, and so on. (My italics) So yes, a DM might judge that the use of [Evil] spells might get the PC to more or less quickly change his alignment... Nothing in the Core rules actually says whether he would be right or wrong to do so... I think he should... but slowly for a non-dinive caster. And this is just my personnal opinion. ;)
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-31-04, 03:55 PM	Originally posted by Dracoulis The Phyrexian They're undead, man. They hate the living by definition of being undead. That's what they do! *ahem* Ghots, Bealnorns, Skells, Zombies (being that those two are kind of MINDLESS all don't hate the living.
Eldren 05-31-04, 06:19 PM	It's been established by the game rules that the animating of the dead is an Evil act, as in the three Evil alignments of Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil. Not coincidentally, the spell Animate Dead has the [Evil] descriptor. It's probably a safe bet to conclude that frequent use of spells with the [Evil] descriptor is going to eventually turn the caster Evil in their alignment. Those spells are [Evil] for a reason: They do things with their magic which is in no way good or beneficial, and instead encourages the baser instincts of serving oneself at the expense of others. The spells from the Book of Vile Darkness are a no-brainer, even though there are a select few spells in that book which are neither Corrupt spells nor have the [Evil] descriptor. But that isn't Core Rules, and thus has little bearing on the actual game mechanics of a spell causing alignment change. Effects are more pronounced for Clerics and other divine casters, because their power is flowing directly from a divine source who is strongly aligned, and in fact likely lives on a plane that is the very embodiment of one of the nine alignments. Wizards and Sorcerors don't have to answer to a higher power for the use of their magic (at least, unless they're in the Forgotten Realms...), so in general they're a bit safer, but even so, a Good-aligned Wizard or Sorceror isn't going to willfully cast a spell they know draws upon energies that are acknowledged as evil. It comes nearly solely from a role playing perspective, but ultimately you can't keep touching evil without it infecting you; remember that old line of "You can only stare into the Abyss so long before the Abyss begins to stare back into you." Consistently touching magic which has the [Evil] descriptor should qualify as having committed an evil action; Paladins are pretty safe from it, because none of their spells have the [Evil] descriptor, and they can only cast spells from their own spell list. But Clerics and whatnot can attempt to call on powers that are evil, and likely are going to be granted those powers, and they can ruin themselves. Likewise with Sorcerors and Wizards, if they're spending all their time animating the dead, making pacts with demons or devils, or just summoning demons or devils to do their bidding, they're touching dark forces that are eventually going to seep into their very beings, and their alignment is going to change. The alignment change is rarely immediate; it goes through stages. You're going to go from being Good aligned to being Neutral aligned, and then you're going to go from being Neutral to being Evil. This is there as much for a failsafe for players as it is to keep a moral shift somewhat realistic (rarely does a severe moral shift happen in a singular instant, at least without the intervention of powerful magic, often on some manner of semi-divine level). The instant a Good-aligned PC is told their alignment has shifted to Neutral, they ought to carefully consider their actions, and either acclimate to their new alignment, start undertaking behaviors which will shift them back to Good, or continue their path and willfully become Evil.
TheGogmagog 05-31-04, 10:43 PM	Originally posted by Ainaelin p. 174 of the PhB Most of these descriptors have no game effects by themselves, but they govern how the spell interacts with other spells, with special abilities, with unusual creatures, with alignment, and so on. Thanks Ainaelin for the quotes, that was the section I was thinking of. I either forgot or never noticed, the 'with alignment'. Somehow I thought it was stronger support for not affecting alignment. I agree with you that a DM could rule it either way, each DM is going to handle alignment differently, you need to check with them when selecting spells.
Storm 06-01-04, 12:13 AM	Thanks for all of your replies. I was thinking about creating a ghost (I'm high level, and using the 3.0 version of Create Greater Undead) to guard my stronghold. Occasionally I'll bring it along adventures with me or send it to attack my enemies. I'm not sure who I'm going to cast the spell on yet...
Ainaelin 06-07-04, 08:35 AM	Hi. I wanted to add my opinion to the last answer by Storm, and it is very close to Eldren's opinion. I stress that this is only my opinion and interpretation of the rules. Toying with the soul of an intelligent and sensitive being is Evil. Creating an undead, and especially an intelligent undead from such a being means you prevent the soul of that being from resting peacefully after its death. You tie its soul to the Material Plane and to you bidding, effectively making it your slave. That's Evil to me, and there is no justification I can think of for it to be a Good act.
Naeron 06-07-04, 09:15 AM	I'd like to point out that the quote given quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Most of these descriptors have no game effects by themselves, but they govern how the spell interacts with other spells, with special abilities, with unusual creatures, with alignment, and so on. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Only specifies that the spell interacts with alignment not that casting the spell has any interaction with alignment. A Protection from Good spell interacts with alignments as supported by the text above , but the act of casting a Protection from Good spell does not, by the text have any interaction with the caster alignment (except for the clerics prohibition about opposite aligned spells).
Ainaelin 06-07-04, 09:26 AM	Originally posted by Naeron I'd like to point out that the quote given quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Most of these descriptors have no game effects by themselves, but they govern how the spell interacts with other spells, with special abilities, with unusual creatures, with alignment, and so on. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Only specifies that the spell interacts with alignment not that casting the spell has any interaction with alignment. A Protection from Good spell interacts with alignments as supported by the text above , but the act of casting a Protection from Good spell does not, by the text have any interaction with the caster alignment (except for the clerics prohibition about opposite aligned spells). Er... Could you explain the difference you make between "interacts with" and "has an interaction with" And if the difference you make is between "the spell itself" and "the action of casting the spell", how do you explain the [Evil] descriptor of the Create Undead spell series? Nothing in the spells details any interaction with alignment... Except they create Evil undead creatures, which is an Evil act by my accounting.