Alignment/skill restrictions to reduce magic item costs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alignment/skill restrictions to reduce magic item costs [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tsuul
01-28-04, 03:56 PM The Behind the Curtain:Magic Item Gold Piece Values, pg 282 DMG, is seeing some abuse in a campaign. Was this intended to create Bags of Holding only usable Good characters to reduce the cost by 30%?
Was it intended to create Bags of Holding ony usable by Lawful AND Good characters at a price reduction of 30% and again by 30%? Lets stack on some needed skills to open these bags and reduce the cost even further. :rolleyes:

If it truely was intended then why are Holy/Unholy weapon enhancements exempt? They are essentialy Bane weapons (+1 cost for buying Bane) that are useful against more types, but not as strong(no extra +2 to hit). Unholy/Holy weaps cost double Bane weapons(+2 cost for Holy/Unholy). And I don't see a mention of reducing the overall sword value by 30% in their descript.

Or am I seeing a problem where there isn't one?
kreynolds
01-28-04, 04:00 PM Originally posted by Tsuul
Or am I seeing a problem where there isn't one?

No, you're definately seeing a problem. The problem is when the discount is applied to the cost of the item in regards to the character's recommended wealth, rather than just the cost of the _market price_ when they sell it, which is something else entirely. A benefit shouldn't provide a discount.
Tsuul
01-28-04, 04:19 PM If I understand you correctly. There is no problem if the market value decreases by the same amount as the cost went down?
[Edit: I see, As long as there is no discount against his recommended wealth: /Edit]
That is still the same problem. Whether or not the characters are creating these items or if they are having them created. Who wouldn't put alignment restrictions on their gear for a 30% discount. Unless your realy paranoid about alignment changing items floating in your world.
Kyuketsukiouji
01-28-04, 04:57 PM No, you're missing the point kreynolds was trying to make, I think. The discount shouldn't be for item *creation* it should only apply when you sell the item.

"Whaddaya mean, Druids can't use this bag? I ain't gonna pay for some half-baked badly enchanted thing like that!"
kreynolds
01-28-04, 05:10 PM Precisely.
adiaven
01-28-04, 05:45 PM <fragment of a conversation taken from a nameless party while visiting a local fair>

"dude, I found this sword that requires ftr2/rgr2/wzd3/EK3/HoLL4/OotBI2 class, chaotic stupid alignment, and race has to be half dragon, half ogre, half shade, and second cousin to a wraith.

I can't believe it matched my character completely, and the market price was only 4 silver pieces!!"

Finally I can use this Vorpal, Slaying, IcyHot, AcidShock, Holy Greatsword of :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored: enlargement!!"

OOC: This weapon will really let me roleplay better!
Tsuul
01-28-04, 05:50 PM Whoa there. I double checked. It reduces the cost. Not [Edit just /Edit] the Market price.
Tsuul
01-28-04, 06:17 PM Adiaven and I see the same thing, but is it a problem?
Sheer_FALACY
01-28-04, 06:23 PM It is a big problem. While having it only affect the market price is a house rule, it is a good idea. Better yet, ban it completely. It doesn't make any sense. They might cost fewer or they might cost more. Ask an econ major.
cwslyclgh
01-29-04, 03:01 AM even the designers I have talked to about it (Monte, SKR, and AC) say that they think it should only affect the market price... why it was left as it is in the book is anybodies guess.
Seeker95
01-29-04, 08:30 AM It is a problem because it defies every modern economic theory ever written. Custom tailored items cost *more* in the real world, regardless of the political or economic system under which you operate. Trying to sell a custom tailored item to someone else makes the item worth less to anyone for whom it was not made, and worth more to someone for whom it was made.

It is also a problem because some DMs are stupid enough to let their players get away with it when it is a guideline for DMs, not players.
Heron_Marked_Blade
01-29-04, 08:53 AM Originally posted by Seeker95
It is also a problem because some DMs are stupid enough to let their players get away with it when it is a guideline for DMs, not players.

This is worth repeating.

Players can look at the list of items in the DMG and say, "I want to create Gloves of Dexterity, what are the prerequisites and costs involved?" Making them "good aligned" or whatever doesn't make them less effective for the player to use (key point), and therefore shouldn't make them less expensive to make.

DMs should also have the cajones to say, "No, you munchkin, you can't get a price cut; you suffer 2d6 points of temporary Intelligence loss just for thinking you could abuse the guidelines, me, and your fellow players that way."

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tsuul 01-28-04, 03:56 PM	The Behind the Curtain:Magic Item Gold Piece Values, pg 282 DMG, is seeing some abuse in a campaign. Was this intended to create Bags of Holding only usable Good characters to reduce the cost by 30%? Was it intended to create Bags of Holding ony usable by Lawful AND Good characters at a price reduction of 30% and again by 30%? Lets stack on some needed skills to open these bags and reduce the cost even further. :rolleyes: If it truely was intended then why are Holy/Unholy weapon enhancements exempt? They are essentialy Bane weapons (+1 cost for buying Bane) that are useful against more types, but not as strong(no extra +2 to hit). Unholy/Holy weaps cost double Bane weapons(+2 cost for Holy/Unholy). And I don't see a mention of reducing the overall sword value by 30% in their descript. Or am I seeing a problem where there isn't one?
kreynolds 01-28-04, 04:00 PM	Originally posted by Tsuul Or am I seeing a problem where there isn't one? No, you're definately seeing a problem. The problem is when the discount is applied to the cost of the item in regards to the character's recommended wealth, rather than just the cost of the _market price_ when they sell it, which is something else entirely. A benefit shouldn't provide a discount.
Tsuul 01-28-04, 04:19 PM	If I understand you correctly. There is no problem if the market value decreases by the same amount as the cost went down? [Edit: I see, As long as there is no discount against his recommended wealth: /Edit] That is still the same problem. Whether or not the characters are creating these items or if they are having them created. Who wouldn't put alignment restrictions on their gear for a 30% discount. Unless your realy paranoid about alignment changing items floating in your world.
Kyuketsukiouji 01-28-04, 04:57 PM	No, you're missing the point kreynolds was trying to make, I think. The discount shouldn't be for item creation it should only apply when you sell the item. "Whaddaya mean, Druids can't use this bag? I ain't gonna pay for some half-baked badly enchanted thing like that!"
kreynolds 01-28-04, 05:10 PM	Precisely.
adiaven 01-28-04, 05:45 PM	<fragment of a conversation taken from a nameless party while visiting a local fair> "dude, I found this sword that requires ftr2/rgr2/wzd3/EK3/HoLL4/OotBI2 class, chaotic stupid alignment, and race has to be half dragon, half ogre, half shade, and second cousin to a wraith. I can't believe it matched my character completely, and the market price was only 4 silver pieces!!" Finally I can use this Vorpal, Slaying, IcyHot, AcidShock, Holy Greatsword of :censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored: enlargement!!" OOC: This weapon will really let me roleplay better!
Tsuul 01-28-04, 05:50 PM	Whoa there. I double checked. It reduces the cost. Not [Edit just /Edit] the Market price.
Tsuul 01-28-04, 06:17 PM	Adiaven and I see the same thing, but is it a problem?
Sheer_FALACY 01-28-04, 06:23 PM	It is a big problem. While having it only affect the market price is a house rule, it is a good idea. Better yet, ban it completely. It doesn't make any sense. They might cost fewer or they might cost more. Ask an econ major.
cwslyclgh 01-29-04, 03:01 AM	even the designers I have talked to about it (Monte, SKR, and AC) say that they think it should only affect the market price... why it was left as it is in the book is anybodies guess.
Seeker95 01-29-04, 08:30 AM	It is a problem because it defies every modern economic theory ever written. Custom tailored items cost more in the real world, regardless of the political or economic system under which you operate. Trying to sell a custom tailored item to someone else makes the item worth less to anyone for whom it was not made, and worth more to someone for whom it was made. It is also a problem because some DMs are stupid enough to let their players get away with it when it is a guideline for DMs, not players.
Heron_Marked_Blade 01-29-04, 08:53 AM	Originally posted by Seeker95 It is also a problem because some DMs are stupid enough to let their players get away with it when it is a guideline for DMs, not players. This is worth repeating. Players can look at the list of items in the DMG and say, "I want to create Gloves of Dexterity, what are the prerequisites and costs involved?" Making them "good aligned" or whatever doesn't make them less effective for the player to use (key point), and therefore shouldn't make them less expensive to make. DMs should also have the cajones to say, "No, you munchkin, you can't get a price cut; you suffer 2d6 points of temporary Intelligence loss just for thinking you could abuse the guidelines, me, and your fellow players that way."