Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Krelios 05-18-04, 08:18 AM	Okay, so the sage advice column today has disappointed me again. Once again, Skip has made a "ruling" that directly contradicts the rules... When you share an alter self spell with a familiar or companion, the familiar or companion assumes a form of the same type as its own. While an animal becomes a magical beast upon becoming a familiar, such a creature must assume the form of an animal when sharing an alter self spell. For example, a cat familiar is a magical beast; when it shares an alter self spell, it assumes the form of an animal, such as a dog, a bird or a bat, not the form of a magical beast. But the rules clearly state that... FAMILIARS A familiar is a normal animal that gains new powers and becomes a magical beast when summoned to service by a sorcerer or wizard. It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but it is treated as a magical beast instead of an animal for the purpose of any effect that depends on its type. Only a normal, unmodified animal may become a familiar. An animal companion cannot also function as a familiar.According to the rules, using Alter Self is limited to Magical Beast forms. Skip made a judgment call that might make sense in most cases, but what about an Improved Familiar? Why should an Imp alter into an animal form? Why would a Worg? A Krenshar? The rules do not agree, Mr. Sage.
Naeron 05-18-04, 08:52 AM	Is it a contradiction? A Familiar is an animal that becomes a magical beast, but only in a limited way. The familiar rules say "It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but it is treated as a magical beast instead of an animal for the purpose of any effect that depends on its type". The polymorph effect does not depend on the familiars type in the way that Charm Animal does (which will not work on a familiar). As far as an Imp familiar goes it can change into any Outsider, that is what the sage said "assumes a form of the same type as its own", and what he means here is the same original type. The Cat familar must alter into a form of an animal (the type of its form) because it has the form of an animal. All this means is that Alter Self is not sufficient to turn a Cat familiar into a Basilisk. I find that reasonable as that is more than alter self can do for the caster.
Krelios 05-18-04, 09:18 AM	The rules still say "any effect based on type" and Alter Self has a restriction of "any creature of the same type." Since you don't get the abilities of that basilisk in your example, it's just a matter of using the rules as written.
Seeker95 05-18-04, 10:42 AM	It's not a contradiction. It is a clarification. The Sage is saying that your familiar can alter self into an animal. It cannot alter itself into a magical beast. No alter self from cat familiar to basilisk. Think balance before turning into a rules lawyer.
Wizard 05-18-04, 10:48 AM	The Sage is "right" in that this is a reasonable rule and how the game should be. But unless he's putting out errata, he's "wrong"---what he said directly contradicts the rules. Until errata comes out, I'll regard his ruling as an excellent house rule---but not core.
Krelios 05-18-04, 01:42 PM	Originally posted by Wizard The Sage is "right" in that this is a reasonable rule and how the game should be. But unless he's putting out errata, he's "wrong"---what he said directly contradicts the rules. Until errata comes out, I'll regard his ruling as an excellent house rule---but not core. Exactly... Think balance before turning into a rules lawyer. Take your own advice before resorting to insults. I am reading the rules as written. Since the cat that looks like a basilisk doesn't actually have any basilisk abilities, it's perfectly balanced. You can houserule it by Skip's suggestion if you want, but I'll continue to play it by the rules as written.
The Hanged Man 05-18-04, 02:04 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 No alter self from cat familiar to basilisk. Think balance before turning into a rules lawyer. Well, duh. Basilisk = 6 HD Alter Self cap = 5 HD Think rules before turning into a balance lawyer.
Seeker95 05-18-04, 05:16 PM	Some of you crack me up! Rules lawyers crack me up the most. Nitpicking on the detail in an example and ignoring the purpose of the example. It doesn't take all kinds. But there are. :P
The Hanged Man 05-18-04, 07:12 PM	Was the purpose to show that you can ignore the 5HD limit? Or that you can ignore the type restriction? Or are those considered "nitpicks" by non-rules lawyers? :P
Seeker95 05-18-04, 08:16 PM	THM: No. Yes. Yes. :P
The Hanged Man 05-18-04, 08:27 PM	Touche! :)