Almost Unfair [Archive] - Wizards Community

Almost Unfair [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DerkathTheMighty
01-31-06, 12:13 PM I am making a sorcerer... who's aim is to have total control over certain people... So I was asking for some help in deciding what spells to take... I know I should take the charm and control spells... as well as suggestion... but I am not sure of the others. Also with a score of 26 to put in any ability would it be better to go sorcerer or wizards? Thanks for the help y'all :help: :help:
tarkin
01-31-06, 01:01 PM Your stat does not really affect wizard vs. Sorceror.

The decision of Wizard vs. sorceror is:

Lots of planning, with some extra abilities generally not helpfull in combat (Wiz)

Vs.

little planning with more spells per day (Sorc)
Mellagon
01-31-06, 01:33 PM Ahem. If you're interested in control, go with Sorcerer. Bluff is a sorcerer class skill, and there are fewer more horrifying ways to seize control of a campaign. You don't even need to use detectable, dispel-able magic. Just good old fashioned lies. Plus the high-charisma associated with sorcerers fits the flavor of the character you're suggesting.
stamhaven
01-31-06, 01:33 PM As Tarkin put it, wizards plan lots each day for what spells to use and how to effectively use their fewer slots (also will have far better skills in general). Wizards have the optoin to specialize making their spells per day get closer to sorcerer totals and will have access to higher spell levels sooner than a sorcerer.

While sorceres should spend more time between levels carefully choosing spells known and equipment to suppliment those choices but have a lot less planning from round to round and day to day due to the inherent flexibility of spontaneous casting. Sorcerers will have better base social/manipulation skills but will lag behind in the ranks department due to not getting anything extra from their casting stat.

As far as spell selection it depends on what sources are availible to you and how narrowly focused you want to be. Also do just want sugestions for starting spells or for a specific higher level character you're building. There are some PrC's with decent abilities for this sort of thing like mindbender from the complete arcane. Also Warlock with unlimited charm monster at level 6 is a decent optoin too (also fits with mindbender). Warlocks have a decent ammount of appeal with point buy builds as they're not very stat dependent.
tiercel
01-31-06, 05:48 PM If you are all about control and manipulation, you may wish to consider a bard.

"What?!" you say.

No seriously -- not only do they get pretty much the spells you are thinking of, but they get bardic fascinate and suggestion (you don't need to be obviously casting a spell to get your way). And, of course, the bard skill list includes Diplomacy (so you don't even need magic to make them like you) and Bluff (or believe you), which can be supplemented by the bard-only spell glibness (+30 to Bluff checks!!!).

Throw in abilities like Gather Information and Bardic Knowledge, and you'll have the advantage over your foes -- you'll be able to dig up their weak spots and their dirty laundry/skeletons in the closet. Sense Motive lets you know if someone is trying to beat you at your own game... or if someone is really enthralled by you or just playing along.

Continuing in this vein, you may want to take a peek at the Mindbender prestige class -- even just a dip into the PrC can get you telepathy, which is an incredibly awesome ability (not only is it cool and utilitarian, but it lets you communicate with -- and thus, persuade/control -- anything).
Radijs
01-31-06, 06:26 PM I've been working on a build just like that.

the most powerful way to do this is indeed through a sorceror.

I took a human, gave him the able learner feat so I could get 4 ranks in bluff, diplomacy, intimidate & sense motive.
Went for a 1-level dip in Mindbender and from then on I went on to fatespinner.

Mindbender makes diplomacy a class skill for you. And as a high-cha sorceror its a good synergy. Friendly attitude is only a dc 20 check away from helpful.
Fatespinner 5: Okay BBEG, make a will save. Oh I'll spin the DC up by 5 and oh yeah you take a -10 penalty on the save. So you'd better get a nat. 20 or you're mine. What a nat. 20? Reroll that save.
smrtgmp
01-31-06, 06:35 PM Forget a bard, sorcerer or a wizard.

If you want the ultimate controller, go with a psion (telepath). Not only can you manifest all your powers spontaneously like a sorcerer or bard, but you have all the social skills as class skill, and your high INT will yield you a ton of skill points, so you can keep them all maxed. Make sure you pick up at least 5 ranks in bluff, sense motive and knowledge (nobility) to maximize your synergy bonuses with diplomacy. Furthermore, you dont have to waggle your fingers and spout gibberish to use your powers, so it is far more subtle, which is definately a good thing for this type of character.

Telepath is also a perfect way to get into mindbender, as all the prerequisite skills are class skills. After the dip in mindbender, thrallheard is great for any would-be master mind.

Another interesting possibility would be to go with a cloistered cleric (for the skill points) and pick up the domination and charm domains, along with the corresponding domain spontenaity feats.
Vaelan
01-31-06, 11:33 PM Monstrous Thrall from Complete Divine is by far the best Enchantment spell there is. It is better than Dominate and has a duration of instantaneous. This means that it cannot be dispelled or blocked by a magic circle. This also means that it cannot be detected.

What I'm wondering is why this is a Cleric spell. Apparently supremacy in any magical field is to be had by a Cleric with the appropriate domain.
willpower
02-01-06, 12:56 AM Your stat does not really affect wizard vs. Sorceror.

The decision of Wizard vs. sorceror is:

Lots of planning, with some extra abilities generally not helpfull in combat (Wiz)

Vs.

little planning with more spells per day (Sorc)

Another way to look at this is a lot of planning up front with the Sorc, or a lot of planning per day as the Wizard. In my opinion planning for the Sorc up front takes more work, though with the limited spells per day that the Wizard has it can also be hard to determine what spells will be needed per day.

A.
DerkathTheMighty
02-01-06, 05:38 PM Thanks for the suggestions... any of you who posted classes and spells not in the core books, would you please repost with what books they were from so that i can look them up... the only books i have are expanded psyonics, PHB, MM version 3, draconomicon, epic level, and arms and equipment.
smrtgmp
02-01-06, 08:39 PM The cloistered cleric is in Unearthed Arcana. The domain spontenaity feat (and the domains I mentioned) are in Complete Divine, though some of the spells in said domains were updated in the Spell Compendium.

Mindbender is a PrC found in complete arcane, though it can be easily adapted for psionics, which is why I mentioned it in conjunction with the telepath.
Luminous Crayon
02-01-06, 10:15 PM If you go the route of a sorceror, be sure to take Still Spell and Silent Spell as feats. Your role as a magic mind-bender is a lot more useful if people don't notice what you're doing, especially in combat situations where you don't want to call attention to yourself. Sorcerors get metamagic on the fly, so you're highly flexible.

Essentially, it's all well and good to grab people by the brain and twist, but when you start waving your hands and spouting gibberish, they start to get suspicious. :)
smrtgmp
02-02-06, 05:31 AM Several ranks in sleight of hand would also be a good idea, as per the new uses of said skill put forward in Races of Stone.
Incognito2me
02-02-06, 05:46 AM Sorcerors get metamagic on the fly, so you're highly flexible.

Except for the fact that you wouldn't be able to use meta-magic while flying...
smrtgmp
02-02-06, 05:50 AM Except for the fact that you wouldn't be able to use meta-magic while flying...That depends on the source of the fly speed. The fly spell, for instance, gives you good maneuverability, meaning you can hover. As such, the full-round casting time wont prevent you from remaining airborne.
Incognito2me
02-02-06, 05:55 AM That depends on the source of the fly speed. The fly spell, for instance, gives you good maneuverability, meaning you can hover. As such, the full-round casting time wont prevent you from remaining airborne.
Fair enough. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DerkathTheMighty 01-31-06, 12:13 PM	I am making a sorcerer... who's aim is to have total control over certain people... So I was asking for some help in deciding what spells to take... I know I should take the charm and control spells... as well as suggestion... but I am not sure of the others. Also with a score of 26 to put in any ability would it be better to go sorcerer or wizards? Thanks for the help y'all :help: :help:
tarkin 01-31-06, 01:01 PM	Your stat does not really affect wizard vs. Sorceror. The decision of Wizard vs. sorceror is: Lots of planning, with some extra abilities generally not helpfull in combat (Wiz) Vs. little planning with more spells per day (Sorc)
Mellagon 01-31-06, 01:33 PM	Ahem. If you're interested in control, go with Sorcerer. Bluff is a sorcerer class skill, and there are fewer more horrifying ways to seize control of a campaign. You don't even need to use detectable, dispel-able magic. Just good old fashioned lies. Plus the high-charisma associated with sorcerers fits the flavor of the character you're suggesting.
stamhaven 01-31-06, 01:33 PM	As Tarkin put it, wizards plan lots each day for what spells to use and how to effectively use their fewer slots (also will have far better skills in general). Wizards have the optoin to specialize making their spells per day get closer to sorcerer totals and will have access to higher spell levels sooner than a sorcerer. While sorceres should spend more time between levels carefully choosing spells known and equipment to suppliment those choices but have a lot less planning from round to round and day to day due to the inherent flexibility of spontaneous casting. Sorcerers will have better base social/manipulation skills but will lag behind in the ranks department due to not getting anything extra from their casting stat. As far as spell selection it depends on what sources are availible to you and how narrowly focused you want to be. Also do just want sugestions for starting spells or for a specific higher level character you're building. There are some PrC's with decent abilities for this sort of thing like mindbender from the complete arcane. Also Warlock with unlimited charm monster at level 6 is a decent optoin too (also fits with mindbender). Warlocks have a decent ammount of appeal with point buy builds as they're not very stat dependent.
tiercel 01-31-06, 05:48 PM	If you are all about control and manipulation, you may wish to consider a bard. "What?!" you say. No seriously -- not only do they get pretty much the spells you are thinking of, but they get bardic fascinate and suggestion (you don't need to be obviously casting a spell to get your way). And, of course, the bard skill list includes Diplomacy (so you don't even need magic to make them like you) and Bluff (or believe you), which can be supplemented by the bard-only spell glibness (+30 to Bluff checks!!!). Throw in abilities like Gather Information and Bardic Knowledge, and you'll have the advantage over your foes -- you'll be able to dig up their weak spots and their dirty laundry/skeletons in the closet. Sense Motive lets you know if someone is trying to beat you at your own game... or if someone is really enthralled by you or just playing along. Continuing in this vein, you may want to take a peek at the Mindbender prestige class -- even just a dip into the PrC can get you telepathy, which is an incredibly awesome ability (not only is it cool and utilitarian, but it lets you communicate with -- and thus, persuade/control -- anything).
Radijs 01-31-06, 06:26 PM	I've been working on a build just like that. the most powerful way to do this is indeed through a sorceror. I took a human, gave him the able learner feat so I could get 4 ranks in bluff, diplomacy, intimidate & sense motive. Went for a 1-level dip in Mindbender and from then on I went on to fatespinner. Mindbender makes diplomacy a class skill for you. And as a high-cha sorceror its a good synergy. Friendly attitude is only a dc 20 check away from helpful. Fatespinner 5: Okay BBEG, make a will save. Oh I'll spin the DC up by 5 and oh yeah you take a -10 penalty on the save. So you'd better get a nat. 20 or you're mine. What a nat. 20? Reroll that save.
smrtgmp 01-31-06, 06:35 PM	Forget a bard, sorcerer or a wizard. If you want the ultimate controller, go with a psion (telepath). Not only can you manifest all your powers spontaneously like a sorcerer or bard, but you have all the social skills as class skill, and your high INT will yield you a ton of skill points, so you can keep them all maxed. Make sure you pick up at least 5 ranks in bluff, sense motive and knowledge (nobility) to maximize your synergy bonuses with diplomacy. Furthermore, you dont have to waggle your fingers and spout gibberish to use your powers, so it is far more subtle, which is definately a good thing for this type of character. Telepath is also a perfect way to get into mindbender, as all the prerequisite skills are class skills. After the dip in mindbender, thrallheard is great for any would-be master mind. Another interesting possibility would be to go with a cloistered cleric (for the skill points) and pick up the domination and charm domains, along with the corresponding domain spontenaity feats.
Vaelan 01-31-06, 11:33 PM	Monstrous Thrall from Complete Divine is by far the best Enchantment spell there is. It is better than Dominate and has a duration of instantaneous. This means that it cannot be dispelled or blocked by a magic circle. This also means that it cannot be detected. What I'm wondering is why this is a Cleric spell. Apparently supremacy in any magical field is to be had by a Cleric with the appropriate domain.
willpower 02-01-06, 12:56 AM	Your stat does not really affect wizard vs. Sorceror. The decision of Wizard vs. sorceror is: Lots of planning, with some extra abilities generally not helpfull in combat (Wiz) Vs. little planning with more spells per day (Sorc) Another way to look at this is a lot of planning up front with the Sorc, or a lot of planning per day as the Wizard. In my opinion planning for the Sorc up front takes more work, though with the limited spells per day that the Wizard has it can also be hard to determine what spells will be needed per day. A.
DerkathTheMighty 02-01-06, 05:38 PM	Thanks for the suggestions... any of you who posted classes and spells not in the core books, would you please repost with what books they were from so that i can look them up... the only books i have are expanded psyonics, PHB, MM version 3, draconomicon, epic level, and arms and equipment.
smrtgmp 02-01-06, 08:39 PM	The cloistered cleric is in Unearthed Arcana. The domain spontenaity feat (and the domains I mentioned) are in Complete Divine, though some of the spells in said domains were updated in the Spell Compendium. Mindbender is a PrC found in complete arcane, though it can be easily adapted for psionics, which is why I mentioned it in conjunction with the telepath.
Luminous Crayon 02-01-06, 10:15 PM	If you go the route of a sorceror, be sure to take Still Spell and Silent Spell as feats. Your role as a magic mind-bender is a lot more useful if people don't notice what you're doing, especially in combat situations where you don't want to call attention to yourself. Sorcerors get metamagic on the fly, so you're highly flexible. Essentially, it's all well and good to grab people by the brain and twist, but when you start waving your hands and spouting gibberish, they start to get suspicious. :)
smrtgmp 02-02-06, 05:31 AM	Several ranks in sleight of hand would also be a good idea, as per the new uses of said skill put forward in Races of Stone.
Incognito2me 02-02-06, 05:46 AM	Sorcerors get metamagic on the fly, so you're highly flexible. Except for the fact that you wouldn't be able to use meta-magic while flying...
smrtgmp 02-02-06, 05:50 AM	Except for the fact that you wouldn't be able to use meta-magic while flying...That depends on the source of the fly speed. The fly spell, for instance, gives you good maneuverability, meaning you can hover. As such, the full-round casting time wont prevent you from remaining airborne.
Incognito2me 02-02-06, 05:55 AM	That depends on the source of the fly speed. The fly spell, for instance, gives you good maneuverability, meaning you can hover. As such, the full-round casting time wont prevent you from remaining airborne. Fair enough. :)