Post/Author/DateTime	Post
'G' 07-07-07, 07:05 PM	Any body else think that it is strange that alterself the basis for Polymorph is 10 min/lvl and Polymorph is only 1min/lvl. Then Shape change is 10min/lvl as well. And not that it really matters but in older additions of D&D polymorph was 10min/lvl as well. Anyone else think that this is odd. I was just wondering if it was a typo, or a concious decision by the Devs.
utilitarian 07-07-07, 09:23 PM	Not perticularily. Alter Self has signifigantly less use than Polymorph, and might generally be used in more social situations, so a longer duration is suitable Shapechange, on the other hand, was intended to be a much more powerful version of Polymorph, thus, increased duration.
Seeker95 07-07-07, 10:04 PM	utilitarian has it fairly well on target. Alter Self? Not very useful. Shapechange? Not very accessible - minimum 18th level to cast. Polymorph on the other hand is both very useful and very accessible -- available as early as 7th level.
magmer2 07-07-07, 10:55 PM	[QUOTE=Seeker95;12994663]utilitarian has it fairly well on target. Alter Self? Not very useful. /QUOTE] So +7 natural armor isn't use full? Flight, burrowing and swim speeds?
runestar 07-07-07, 11:04 PM	What he means is that alter self is more effective outside of combat. With swim/burrow speeds, it makes more sense for alter self to last 1 hour rather than 6 minutes if you want it to be worth anything when scouting out ahead in the dungeon. Conversely, polymorph typically sees play during actual combat, when the mage uses it to transform the party members into hydras or treants to devastate the foe. Thus, it would be better to shorten its duration, to prevent its benefits from carrying over to subsequent battles. Shapechange is a 9th lv spell. So to heck with game balance...:P
The Simbul 07-08-07, 02:24 AM	For what it is worth, polymorph can be cast on allies, whereas the other two spells cannot. Being able to only affect the caster may be a balancing factor in determining duration, such as the logic behind Persistent spell generally only affecting personal range spells (or a handful of emanations/obscure spells).
DarkPawn 07-08-07, 03:15 AM	Honestly I must say that alter self can actually be better then polymorph in certain situations (combat included). For example as a warforged I can alter self into large constructs. An undead could alter self into large undead. Or small for that matter, assuming you were medium size. Polymorph however has to target a "living creature", and can only be used to polymorph into living creatures. So for undead it is worthless and for warforged, is far more limiting on what you can become. Now I do concede that this is a very unique situation and probably not what was intended (not foreseeing warforged) when the spell was designed. However, it can be pretty neat at times. :) I have recently discovered astral constructs (psionic group member summoned one) and this has opened a whole new can of worms for alter self. In my campaign the house rule is you can't assume a form of something unless you have had first hand experience with something you wish to change into (including polymorph).
Elana 07-08-07, 03:19 AM	In 3.0 polymorph self lasted an hour per level, making the spell actually useful. (At least if you are in a roleplaying game instead of a rollplaying game.) I measure the usefullness of spells only outside of combat. And in that regard a lot of spells have been serious nerfed. Well except for those spells that are only balanced in combat, but can generate infinite wealth outside of combat. (Wall of iron anyone?)
ArcTan 07-08-07, 04:13 AM	Honestly I must say that alter self can actually be better then polymorph in certain situations (combat included). For example as a warforged I can alter self into large constructs. An undead could alter self into large undead. Or small for that matter, assuming you were medium size. I'll agree on the Warforged -- alter self into a Warforged Charger is basically a beefed up enlarge person -- but I don't think there are any Large Undead under 5 HD, at least that I can think of in core. No Small Undead either, for that matter. (Keep in mind that you *can't* turn into something with a template, and Zombie, Skeleton, Vampire and such are all templates.)
DarkPawn 07-08-07, 04:22 AM	I'll agree on the Warforged -- alter self into a Warforged Charger is basically a beefed up enlarge person -- but I don't think there are any Large Undead under 5 HD, at least that I can think of in core. No Small Undead either, for that matter. (Keep in mind that you *can't* turn into something with a template, and Zombie, Skeleton, Vampire and such are all templates.) I really didn't dig through all the sourcebooks. Just meant that if there were such things and they weren't templated you could become them only if you were undead. You may be right that there aren't any. I really don't know.
'G' 07-08-07, 11:06 PM	I almost never play a combatant myself, and as some one pointed out earlier I prefer to be a roleplayer instead of a rollplayer. What I am getting at, is by thinking of Polymorph as only a combat spell, then yeah 1min/lvl is ok. But I have played this game long before their even was a known WOTC, and Polymorh although it has had it's combat uses, has always been more greatly used outside of combat in my case.
Elana 07-09-07, 01:22 AM	Well, most impersonating stuff can be done with Alter self. You just need some magic item to do it for any serious length of time. (Or persistent spell cheese)