Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Timzc1 11-13-05, 06:47 AM	I have always thought the 3.5 fix on alter self was no fix at all. This second level spell gives a PC access to duplicate several 3rd level spells (water breathing and fly come to mind), albeit for a more limited duration. Any opinions or advice? --timzc1
smrtgmp 11-13-05, 06:56 AM	It only duplicates fly if you play in a world with flying humanoinds, like FR. Even then, the flight granted is not on par with that of the fly spell. Likewise, water breathing lasts for 2 hours per level and can affect multiple targets, while Alter Self lasts for 10 min/level and is personal only. Dont get me wrong, its an awesome 2nd level spell, but I dont think it replaces the other spells that you mentioned, especially with a range of personal.
Timzc1 11-13-05, 07:12 AM	In terms of limiting the power, range "personal" is a good mitigating point. But... the (extreme) versitility of the Alter Self spell makes it too powerful as is (in my opinion). Perhaps adjust to 1 min / LEV OR make it stand as is, but advance to a 3rd lev? (one in-house fix my group considered: the caster must have actually encountered whatever she alters into).
smrtgmp 11-13-05, 07:21 AM	The fix your group concidered is a common one. I make PCs make a knowledge check to be able to assume any given form. If they dont know enough about it, they cant turn into it.
Auorix 11-22-05, 01:40 AM	Seen a decent list of forms in here anywhere for alter self? Is there a list being compiled anywhere?
Nephlite 11-22-05, 11:52 AM	Seen a decent list of forms in here anywhere for alter self? Is there a list being compiled anywhere? Here is the Link: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=176246
Wyrd Bearer 11-22-05, 01:09 PM	The fix your group concidered is a common one. I make PCs make a knowledge check to be able to assume any given form. If they dont know enough about it, they cant turn into it.I don't let them assume any form, just ones that they've seen. Once they've seen trogs or avariels, they can take that form but not without actually having seen one. As for the spellpower, I feel it is fine at level 2, it is versitile but still limited in what it can do, especially with its duration and personal use only. If fighters had a reliable way beyond potions to get this spell, then maybe I'd be worried.
Redneck4Hire 11-22-05, 01:24 PM	What about 'Use Magic Device'? It's not exclusive any more. It's true that a ftr5 would only be able to put 4 ranks into it, but a ftr/rog would have a good chance of using scrolls, and the above ftr5 with a 12+ Cha would have a 1 in 4 chance of activating a wand.
SgtHulka 11-22-05, 01:40 PM	I have always thought the 3.5 fix on alter self was no fix at all. This second level spell gives a PC access to duplicate several 3rd level spells (water breathing and fly come to mind), albeit for a more limited duration. Any opinions or advice? --timzc1 You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth. You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype. How do you achieve water breathing? You can't change to the Aquatic subtype, since you keep your current subtype, so changing into a Locathah or Aquatic Elf won't grant you water breathing. And the Mer-Folk's Amphibious is listed under Special Qualities. Even the Lizard Folk's Hold Breath is listed under such. Since neither of those are gross phsyical effects listed in the Spell Description, they, too, would be prohibited. About the best I've been able to find is the Locothah's +8 Racial Bonus on Swim Checks and its 60' Swim Speed (which, admittedly, is very helpful when dumped into water while wearing armor, but it's not quite water breathing).
tarkin 11-22-05, 02:13 PM	SgtHulka, re-read those creatures. Some of them are expressely granted abilities to breathe underwater BESIDES the ability granted from Aquatic subtype Amphibious (Ex) Merfolk can breathe both air and water, although they rarely travel more than a few feet from the water’s edge. This is an exceptional ability not granted by aquatic subtype. A reasonable DM will rule that this qualifies as a gross physical quality. A similar argument can be made for Aquatic Elves that have a gross physical quality of gills (although the 'gill' special ability specifically states it lets them breath on land, most DM's will also understand that they have gills also lets them breath underwater). Yes, a strict DM might rule the other way, but he might not, and a Loose DM would DEFINITELY allow someone with gills to count them as a gross physical quality that allows breathing underwater, especially considering the long histroy (1-3rd edition) of the spell Alter Self allowing breathing underwater.