Post/Author/DateTime	Post
curan69 12-27-05, 11:56 PM	I was hoping someone might explain the statement in the Alter self spell that says if you use the spell to create a disguise you get +10 to your check. When is an example of using the spell for a disguise? That statement also implies you can use the spell for another purpose than disguise, since it says "if" you use it for a disguise. When is an example of not using the spell for a disguise? I guess I'm confused about the interaction of spells and the disguise skill. Alter self is a transmutation and disguise self is an illusion, yet they both give +10 if they are used for a disguise. Even Polymorph says the same thing. Can a Third level rogue with a 16 Charisma and a disguise kit really do better than a Polymorph spell? Third level rogue could have 6 ranks in disguise, +3 for charisma and +2 for a kit = +11
smrtgmp 12-28-05, 12:21 AM	Examples: of disguise: You're a human and you need to look like an elf. You're an elf and you need to look like a human, etc, etc. IIRC you can also attempt to look like a particular individual, though that could be disguise self something other than a disguise: need to swim and breath water? turn into an aquatic humanoid? need to climb a tree? turn into a humanoid with a climb speed. need a boost to AC? turn into something with good natural armor. Can a Third level rogue with a 16 Charisma and a disguise kit really do better than a Polymorph spell? yes and no. if they're disguising themselves as something of a similar shape, then yes. If they want to turn into a horse so that they can blend into a herd, then they're pretty much out of luck.
CaoSlayer 12-28-05, 04:41 AM	they both can be used for the same thing, but they do it in diferent ways... Disguise self it is an illusion, fools people but you are still the same person/creature. Alter self alters your body shape, makes you really taller, smaller, tougher it is a real change. Of course since alter self it is a higher level spell it is more useful and also have one big advantage: cant be disbelieved. Seriously alter self in almost any case it is way more useful than disguise self.
Thorden_Lyon 12-28-05, 06:54 AM	Disguise skill has one big advantage : you can only detect it with a spot check. A simple detect magic can screw your disguise if you emanate some illusory magic. Or you combine with nondetection / nystul's aura but it doesnt work all the time, and cost you another spell.
Pandaemoni 12-28-05, 07:04 AM	The way we tend to play both spells is that anyone who is taking a careful look at you (a Spot check) has a chance of finding some aspect of the illusion/transformation that you messed up. A disguise check is rolled (and 10 plus your normal disguise modifiers added) and compared to his spot check roll. In other words, the spells let you appear to be or take on the general form of another similar creature, but they are still basically reliant on your getting the image of the other being correct. You're not going to miss major features (like wings, would that there were any winged races in the worlds in which I play), but you can screw up the subleties. So long as no one checks you out closely, no one would notice; but when they do there's always some small detail that could give you away. It's pretty unusual that anyone would have a spot check high enough to see through a +10 disguise, but a medium-high level NPC might get you.
tennesseefats 12-28-05, 10:31 AM	When is an example of using the spell for a disguise? Recently, IMC, we captured a sorcerer from an evil cabal (are there even any cabals that aren't evil?). We passed the rumor around that he had escaped from jail, even though he hadn't. The party mage than proceeded to study him and using alter self ingratiated himself into their stronghold, let the others party members in, and caught the whole cabal by surprise. Now, compared with a disguise, which would have worked just as well, alter self allowed a perfect physical reproduction of the sorcerer. If he had to speak at length, or the cabal members knew each other well (they didn't), he wouldn't have had the necessary skill to keep the ruse going, but he did get the +10 on the roll... Or - Role succeds: Bob may sound funny because he has a cold, or act funny because he's drunk; if he looks just like Bob, I'll believe he's Bob. Role fails: It looks just like Bob, but Bob wouldn't say that, or walk like that...Imposter! Guards! When is an example of not using the spell for a disguise? That has been covered above: If you need a form that can swim, or a form that breathes underwater, or a from with a tail for balance, etc. Can a Third level rogue with a 16 Charisma and a disguise kit really do better than a Polymorph spell? Against someone with no ranks in Disguise or a Charisma modifier - yes. Remember the person who is using the spell as a disguise is untrained in the art of disguise. They may get the hair color right, the face just right, and other physical identifiers correct, but make a mistake in a gesture or pattern of speech. The Disguise skill is more than just looking like someone - it is looking like plus acting like, sounding like, and thinking like another person/being. Those subleties are not conferred upon the caster by alter self. Heck, if you turn into an orc, but don't speak Orcish...no spell is going to disguise that...