Alter Self and Elves [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alter Self and Elves [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
PhaedrusXY
01-30-04, 02:18 AM Does using Alter Self to turn into an elf give you the ability to notice a Trap or Secret Door by merely passing within 5 feet of it?

The spell description says it gives you racial bonuses to skills and racial feats, but not extraordinary abilities or "special qualities". In the section on elves in the PHB and SRD, the ability is not defined as being an extraordinary ability. In fact, it is listed in the same line as the +2 to Search, Spot and Listen they get as a racial bonus. So it isn't entirely unreasonable to claim that it is part of their racial bonus to Search. Also, since "special quality" isn't really defined within the rules, as far as I know, you could claim that the ability is a "special quality" and so is not gained through use of the spell.

I did a search and turned up nothing, so I was wondering if this has been discussed somewhere before and what your opinions were on it.

Here are quotes from the relevant sections of the SRD:

From the description of elves in the SRD:
• +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.
From the description of Alter Self in the SRD:
You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.
You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.
You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form.
Dauntless
01-30-04, 02:40 AM Physical qualities include:
natural size
mundane movement capabilities
natural armor bonus
natural weapons
racial skill bonuses
racial bonus feats
and any gross physical qualities

"Detecting secret doors" is not any of those. Therefore, no. You wouldn't get that any more than you would get dwarven stonecunning or gnome 0th level spells.
PhaedrusXY
01-30-04, 03:09 AM I tend to agree with you, but since it is listed in the same line as the racial bonus to Search, I can see making an argument for it being part of the racial bonus also.

So what kind of ability would you say being able to automatically search for secret doors is? What level of spell would it take to get it?

Polymorph actually changes your type and subtype, so it might work. But it also says it does not grant you "extraordinary special qualities". The examples it gives of "extraordinary special qualities" are blindsense, regeneration, fast healing and scent. Two of the four are means of perception that go beyond the norm, as is being able to search for a secret door automatically. So I could see some DMs saying that Polymorph would not give you the ability either.

Shapechange certainly would work, but does it really take a 9th level spell to duplicate so trivial an ability?
Kaston
01-30-04, 03:46 AM It's listed only on the same line for convenience. It's not part of the skill bonus. Detecting secret doors is part of the 'elf traits' special quality, and alter self doesn't give you special qualities.
Kazar
01-30-04, 08:51 AM If you get the elves bonuses to Listen, Search, and Spot checks you should also get the auto detect ability. As the these bonuses are from the elves keen senses and it says right under the description of elf that the auto detection ability comes from these senses.
Kaston
01-30-04, 08:59 AM I don't know that I agree with the 'should', but whether it should grant it or not, it doesn't.
detectevil
01-30-04, 09:08 AM So what? So a halfling cleric Altered into an Elf becomes proficient with a long sword?

No way. I'm house ruling this out as number 47.
Kazar
01-30-04, 09:09 AM Also, as a Dm you might want to alter the spell a bit in the first place. It seems a little weird to me that a Dark elf casting this spell on himself to turn into a Duergar would no longer be able to see in the dark. As according to the spell description you lose extraordinary special attacks and qualities that arent class based and do not gain them from the race you become except as noted in PhaedrusXY's original post. Call me crazy but if it takes away the "qualities" of your old race it should give you the "qualities" of the new one.
Kaston
01-30-04, 10:14 AM Originally posted by detectevil
So what? So a halfling cleric Altered into an Elf becomes proficient with a long sword?

No way. I'm house ruling this out as number 47.

Uh, what? Alter Self doesn't great weapon proficiencies. Where'd you get that?
detectevil
01-30-04, 11:18 AM It is a racial bonus feat. Two actually, elves receive free weapon proficience with long swords and long bows.
Kaston
01-30-04, 12:03 PM Nope. It has the same /effects/ as a feat, but look at the Elf entry in the MM. It's part of the Elf Traits Special Quality- which, as a note, is Ex. (You only gain extraordinary special qualities with Shapechange.) Elves have no bonus feats.

They have proficiency with rapier and shortbow as well, as a note.
Topaz
01-30-04, 12:22 PM The martial weapon profiniency of elves is not a "racial feat".

Racial feats are the listed in the feat entry in the monster's stat block and are marked with a "B" (for bonus).

Typically the Track feat seems to be the most popular racial bonus.

DND logic: A race has a feat doesn't make it a racial feat.

For example a dog has alertness and track (B) as feats, if a druid turns into a dog, that druid does not recieve the alertness feat but does get the track feat because it's a racial bonus.

The profiniency of longswords by elves is an extradinary special quality (by the rules) and if you turn into an elf you don't get it.
PhaedrusXY
01-30-04, 12:45 PM Since posting this, I noticed that in the writeups for elven NPCs in WotC books, they list "Elven Traits" collectively as an (Ex) ability. So going by that, it would take a Shapechange to gain the abilities, as Kaston pointed out.

I do agree with Kazar though. If it takes away Extraordinary Qualities it should give them. If it doesn't give them, then you should keep your original ones.

I simply don't like the 3.5 version of this spell. If you are an outsider, such as an aasimar, then technically you can't take the form of humanoids at all. So a high level aasimar druid (or Shadow Walker Ninja Spy, as in one of my character's cases) cannot use their Thousand Faces ability to impersonate humanoids. I guess you could claim you're mimicking a humanoid native to one of the outer planes (such as an elf from arborea), but that is a shady workaround.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PhaedrusXY 01-30-04, 02:18 AM	Does using Alter Self to turn into an elf give you the ability to notice a Trap or Secret Door by merely passing within 5 feet of it? The spell description says it gives you racial bonuses to skills and racial feats, but not extraordinary abilities or "special qualities". In the section on elves in the PHB and SRD, the ability is not defined as being an extraordinary ability. In fact, it is listed in the same line as the +2 to Search, Spot and Listen they get as a racial bonus. So it isn't entirely unreasonable to claim that it is part of their racial bonus to Search. Also, since "special quality" isn't really defined within the rules, as far as I know, you could claim that the ability is a "special quality" and so is not gained through use of the spell. I did a search and turned up nothing, so I was wondering if this has been discussed somewhere before and what your opinions were on it. Here are quotes from the relevant sections of the SRD: From the description of elves in the SRD: • +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it. From the description of Alter Self in the SRD: You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth. You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form.
Dauntless 01-30-04, 02:40 AM	Physical qualities include: natural size mundane movement capabilities natural armor bonus natural weapons racial skill bonuses racial bonus feats and any gross physical qualities "Detecting secret doors" is not any of those. Therefore, no. You wouldn't get that any more than you would get dwarven stonecunning or gnome 0th level spells.
PhaedrusXY 01-30-04, 03:09 AM	I tend to agree with you, but since it is listed in the same line as the racial bonus to Search, I can see making an argument for it being part of the racial bonus also. So what kind of ability would you say being able to automatically search for secret doors is? What level of spell would it take to get it? Polymorph actually changes your type and subtype, so it might work. But it also says it does not grant you "extraordinary special qualities". The examples it gives of "extraordinary special qualities" are blindsense, regeneration, fast healing and scent. Two of the four are means of perception that go beyond the norm, as is being able to search for a secret door automatically. So I could see some DMs saying that Polymorph would not give you the ability either. Shapechange certainly would work, but does it really take a 9th level spell to duplicate so trivial an ability?
Kaston 01-30-04, 03:46 AM	It's listed only on the same line for convenience. It's not part of the skill bonus. Detecting secret doors is part of the 'elf traits' special quality, and alter self doesn't give you special qualities.
Kazar 01-30-04, 08:51 AM	If you get the elves bonuses to Listen, Search, and Spot checks you should also get the auto detect ability. As the these bonuses are from the elves keen senses and it says right under the description of elf that the auto detection ability comes from these senses.
Kaston 01-30-04, 08:59 AM	I don't know that I agree with the 'should', but whether it should grant it or not, it doesn't.
detectevil 01-30-04, 09:08 AM	So what? So a halfling cleric Altered into an Elf becomes proficient with a long sword? No way. I'm house ruling this out as number 47.
Kazar 01-30-04, 09:09 AM	Also, as a Dm you might want to alter the spell a bit in the first place. It seems a little weird to me that a Dark elf casting this spell on himself to turn into a Duergar would no longer be able to see in the dark. As according to the spell description you lose extraordinary special attacks and qualities that arent class based and do not gain them from the race you become except as noted in PhaedrusXY's original post. Call me crazy but if it takes away the "qualities" of your old race it should give you the "qualities" of the new one.
Kaston 01-30-04, 10:14 AM	Originally posted by detectevil So what? So a halfling cleric Altered into an Elf becomes proficient with a long sword? No way. I'm house ruling this out as number 47. Uh, what? Alter Self doesn't great weapon proficiencies. Where'd you get that?
detectevil 01-30-04, 11:18 AM	It is a racial bonus feat. Two actually, elves receive free weapon proficience with long swords and long bows.
Kaston 01-30-04, 12:03 PM	Nope. It has the same /effects/ as a feat, but look at the Elf entry in the MM. It's part of the Elf Traits Special Quality- which, as a note, is Ex. (You only gain extraordinary special qualities with Shapechange.) Elves have no bonus feats. They have proficiency with rapier and shortbow as well, as a note.
Topaz 01-30-04, 12:22 PM	The martial weapon profiniency of elves is not a "racial feat". Racial feats are the listed in the feat entry in the monster's stat block and are marked with a "B" (for bonus). Typically the Track feat seems to be the most popular racial bonus. DND logic: A race has a feat doesn't make it a racial feat. For example a dog has alertness and track (B) as feats, if a druid turns into a dog, that druid does not recieve the alertness feat but does get the track feat because it's a racial bonus. The profiniency of longswords by elves is an extradinary special quality (by the rules) and if you turn into an elf you don't get it.
PhaedrusXY 01-30-04, 12:45 PM	Since posting this, I noticed that in the writeups for elven NPCs in WotC books, they list "Elven Traits" collectively as an (Ex) ability. So going by that, it would take a Shapechange to gain the abilities, as Kaston pointed out. I do agree with Kazar though. If it takes away Extraordinary Qualities it should give them. If it doesn't give them, then you should keep your original ones. I simply don't like the 3.5 version of this spell. If you are an outsider, such as an aasimar, then technically you can't take the form of humanoids at all. So a high level aasimar druid (or Shadow Walker Ninja Spy, as in one of my character's cases) cannot use their Thousand Faces ability to impersonate humanoids. I guess you could claim you're mimicking a humanoid native to one of the outer planes (such as an elf from arborea), but that is a shady workaround.