Alter Self and Familiars [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alter Self and Familiars [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Keenath
12-07-04, 12:44 PM I was just exploring the idea of casting Alter Self and affecting your familiar with it. Unfortunately, there are very, very few creatures, in ANY monster manual, that are Magical Beasts and have the requisite hit dice and size. Unless you get an Improved Familiar that's bigger than Tiny, you're hugely limited.

Actually, in reading about familiars and the Augmented subtype, I noticed that all familiars have Darkvision, because they have the Traits of Magical Beasts (but the Features of Animals, due to the Augmented subtype).

Anyway, my question is this: Does anyone see a problem in allowing Alter Self to affect Augmented types as if they were either their type or their Augmented type? In other words, a familiar could be turned into either a Magical Beast OR an Animal, provided it has the required size and HD. There would be a similar effect on Awakened animals and a Paladin's mount, though in the case of the awakened animal, it would need to have gained caster levels on its own. A multiclassed paladin could share spells to his mount, IIRC.

This is an exhaustive list of forms a familiar could take if limited to Magical Beasts of size Small or smaller and less than five HD. I've included some of the most important features they'd inherit:

Cockatrice (fly 60 poor, bite 1d2)
Darkmantle (fly 30 poor, slam 1d4, improved grab, constrict)
Shocker Lizard(climb 20, swim 20, bite 1d4, NA +3)
Stirge (fly 40 avg; might gain Attach and/or Blood Drain. I'm not sure.)
Corollax (fly 60 good)
Moonrat (Absolutely useless. It's a normal rat.)
Phase Wasp (fly 60 perfect)

That's IT. The only ones of any use are the Shocker Lizard, Darkmantle, and Corollax or Phase Wasp, and even then it's mostly for the movement modes. Because you keep your own ability scores, even if you turn your familiar into a Darkmantle, you'll probably NEVER win a grapple check.

So, does anyone see a problem with turning my raven familiar into a badger? :D
Seeker95
12-07-04, 02:49 PM Although it sounds like your request is harmless, the answer I give must be with an eye on the big picture. Changes in the creature selection that occur over time can change the possibilities of granting exceptions to the rules.

First, you cannot cast alter self on your familiar. Alter self has a target of personal. This doesn't really answer the question, but I wanted to put it on the table.

In casting the spell on yourself, you can also have your familiar count as one of your possessions, and alter it along with yourself. Again, this doesn't really answer the question.

However, you can share the spell with your familiar. This is what you are really asking. So the question becomes, when you share this spell with your familiar, what happens. Two possible interpretations lend themselves to a literal reading of the rules.

First "literal" reading.
The familiar can only be turned into a creature of your type. Despite the odd outcome of this interpretation, it fits the RAW. Sharing a spell with your familiar does not change the wording of the spell. It affects your familair exactly as it affects you. An even more literal interpretation would be that you can only turn the familiar into the same thing you turn yourself into!

Second "literal" reading:
The familair can only be turned into a creature of its own type. Since it is a unique type of creature (augmented animal in one sense, magical beast in another) you could turn it into any magical beast (within HD limits) or augmented animal. An even more literal reading to this approach would be that you can only turn your familair into another familiar.

As for myself, I would just say no, and erase any arguments regarding the details.
Keenath
12-07-04, 03:15 PM Actually, read the third sentence in the description of the Share Spells power in the Familiars sidebar. You can cast any spell with a target of You or range Personal as a touch spell to affect your familiar instead, in which case it does not affect you at all. Therefore you CAN, in fact, target your familiar with Alter Self.

Moreover, you can Enlarge Person your familiar, because a shared spell works even if it wouldn't normally affect a Magical Beast.

In light of that, most of your post is fairly irrelevant, but the one section that does work is the section titled "Second Literal Reading".

I'm completely confused by your assertion that a familiar, by the most strict interpretation, could only become another familiar. How do you figure? Subtypes are not even considered in the Alter Self spell. By a strict reading, the Augmented Animal subtype should be ignored by the spell, allowing your familiar to take the form of any Magical Beast that meets the standards for the spell. My argument is that this unfairly hampers familiars, and because they ARE, in fact, augmented animals, they should be able to take the form of any animal (subject to the spell's limits).
PhaedrusXY
12-07-04, 04:32 PM There is a section in my thread on forms for Alter Self that is devoted to useful forms for you familiar. You can find the thread here:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=176246

Also, there is a section near the end of the thread discussing what are viable forms for familiars.
Seeker95
12-07-04, 07:51 PM Keenath, did you intend for your reply to sound so antagonistic?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Keenath 12-07-04, 12:44 PM	I was just exploring the idea of casting Alter Self and affecting your familiar with it. Unfortunately, there are very, very few creatures, in ANY monster manual, that are Magical Beasts and have the requisite hit dice and size. Unless you get an Improved Familiar that's bigger than Tiny, you're hugely limited. Actually, in reading about familiars and the Augmented subtype, I noticed that all familiars have Darkvision, because they have the Traits of Magical Beasts (but the Features of Animals, due to the Augmented subtype). Anyway, my question is this: Does anyone see a problem in allowing Alter Self to affect Augmented types as if they were either their type or their Augmented type? In other words, a familiar could be turned into either a Magical Beast OR an Animal, provided it has the required size and HD. There would be a similar effect on Awakened animals and a Paladin's mount, though in the case of the awakened animal, it would need to have gained caster levels on its own. A multiclassed paladin could share spells to his mount, IIRC. This is an exhaustive list of forms a familiar could take if limited to Magical Beasts of size Small or smaller and less than five HD. I've included some of the most important features they'd inherit: Cockatrice (fly 60 poor, bite 1d2) Darkmantle (fly 30 poor, slam 1d4, improved grab, constrict) Shocker Lizard(climb 20, swim 20, bite 1d4, NA +3) Stirge (fly 40 avg; might gain Attach and/or Blood Drain. I'm not sure.) Corollax (fly 60 good) Moonrat (Absolutely useless. It's a normal rat.) Phase Wasp (fly 60 perfect) That's IT. The only ones of any use are the Shocker Lizard, Darkmantle, and Corollax or Phase Wasp, and even then it's mostly for the movement modes. Because you keep your own ability scores, even if you turn your familiar into a Darkmantle, you'll probably NEVER win a grapple check. So, does anyone see a problem with turning my raven familiar into a badger? :D
Seeker95 12-07-04, 02:49 PM	Although it sounds like your request is harmless, the answer I give must be with an eye on the big picture. Changes in the creature selection that occur over time can change the possibilities of granting exceptions to the rules. First, you cannot cast alter self on your familiar. Alter self has a target of personal. This doesn't really answer the question, but I wanted to put it on the table. In casting the spell on yourself, you can also have your familiar count as one of your possessions, and alter it along with yourself. Again, this doesn't really answer the question. However, you can share the spell with your familiar. This is what you are really asking. So the question becomes, when you share this spell with your familiar, what happens. Two possible interpretations lend themselves to a literal reading of the rules. First "literal" reading. The familiar can only be turned into a creature of your type. Despite the odd outcome of this interpretation, it fits the RAW. Sharing a spell with your familiar does not change the wording of the spell. It affects your familair exactly as it affects you. An even more literal interpretation would be that you can only turn the familiar into the same thing you turn yourself into! Second "literal" reading: The familair can only be turned into a creature of its own type. Since it is a unique type of creature (augmented animal in one sense, magical beast in another) you could turn it into any magical beast (within HD limits) or augmented animal. An even more literal reading to this approach would be that you can only turn your familair into another familiar. As for myself, I would just say no, and erase any arguments regarding the details.
Keenath 12-07-04, 03:15 PM	Actually, read the third sentence in the description of the Share Spells power in the Familiars sidebar. You can cast any spell with a target of You or range Personal as a touch spell to affect your familiar instead, in which case it does not affect you at all. Therefore you CAN, in fact, target your familiar with Alter Self. Moreover, you can Enlarge Person your familiar, because a shared spell works even if it wouldn't normally affect a Magical Beast. In light of that, most of your post is fairly irrelevant, but the one section that does work is the section titled "Second Literal Reading". I'm completely confused by your assertion that a familiar, by the most strict interpretation, could only become another familiar. How do you figure? Subtypes are not even considered in the Alter Self spell. By a strict reading, the Augmented Animal subtype should be ignored by the spell, allowing your familiar to take the form of any Magical Beast that meets the standards for the spell. My argument is that this unfairly hampers familiars, and because they ARE, in fact, augmented animals, they should be able to take the form of any animal (subject to the spell's limits).
PhaedrusXY 12-07-04, 04:32 PM	There is a section in my thread on forms for Alter Self that is devoted to useful forms for you familiar. You can find the thread here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=176246 Also, there is a section near the end of the thread discussing what are viable forms for familiars.
Seeker95 12-07-04, 07:51 PM	Keenath, did you intend for your reply to sound so antagonistic?