Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Starspider 04-10-05, 09:40 PM	This came up in a campaign I'm helping out with, and now I'm having to wonder how to balance it. Basically, we have an aasimar sorcerer that just learned alter self... and can now change into any Outsider with 5HD or less. Which doesn't seem like much, but there's lantern archons, azers, and it's a bit unbalancing to the rest of the group. My thought would be to include the Native subtype as part of the Outsider type for the purposes of what you can change into. So an aasimar could change into a gensai, tiefling, or other outsider-native, but not into something that would make it somewhat broken. Thoughts/suggestions appreciated! :D
Seeker95 04-10-05, 09:50 PM	I would just rule that they can't use alter self to appear as anything but a different appearance of their own race (a glorified disguise). It's one of the drawbacks to playing an outsider. Nothing else fits your type of both outsider *and* native.
pres_man 04-10-05, 09:54 PM	Just remember that alterself only gives you some gross features of other forms, not their abilities.
Starspider 04-10-05, 10:05 PM	Just remember that alterself only gives you some gross features of other forms, not their abilities. Well, you get the extraordinary abilities, but not supernatural/spell-like abilities, per the Sage's article on it back on this page. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040518a) Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings. Physical qualities also include natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). Your size becomes the same as a typical example of the creature whose form you assume, as noted in the creature's description. You cannot assume a larger or smaller size even if the creature's advancement entry lists other possible sizes. If for example, you change into a lizardfolk, you become Medium size -- you could not turn into a Small or Large lizardfolk. Your maximum speed in any assumed form, however, is 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement; faster speeds are considered extraordinary qualities, even when they are not so listed in the creature's description. In most cases, racial skill bonuses depend on your body and your mind. So, you get to keep your own racial skill bonuses and feats while gaining those of your assumed form. Your DM might want to make certain exceptions. (For example, a dwarf's skill bonuses related to stonework are arguably cultural in origin and don't just appear when you're in dwarf form.) So, a lantern archon can't fly, but arrowhawks and azer still get flight and/or natural armor of rather impressive stripes. Just seems a little unbalanced to me.
stamhaven 04-10-05, 10:55 PM	If you're playing with a +0 LA version it's definitely very strong option (if not it tips the scale the other way on that otherwise fairly weak +1 LA race pushing it closer to +2 with access to that spell). It would be a perfectly reasonable house rule to restrict it to races of the same gross body type, instead of Type (thus that aasimar could imitate humans, elves, halflings, troglodytes, and hound arcons, but not lantern arcons or arrowhawks). Familiarity can also be a great limiting factor for any shapechange magic. Other races get hurt by the mechanic as written like stone giants not able to use it to look like kill giants due to the HD cap. Alter self is the tip of the iceburg with the variety of power and complexity availible with such a small handfull of spells (alter self, polymorph, and shape change). Scalling back what it grants could make opening more types and forms up much less potentially game breaking.
Bloodtide_the_Red 04-11-05, 01:33 AM	It does not look all that unbalancing to me. Alter Self does not give you all that much(see above post). It can be helpful, sure, but I don't see unblancing. So an Azer gives you +6 natural armor...wow. Normal human wizards can become a Troglodyte and get +6 too. Even lizardfolk are +5. Now core, there is no humanoid that flies to match the ArrowHawk. And a quick look does no find one elsewhere. It realy depends on how many books you use with monsters in them as to how powerful Alter Self can get. BT
Pinky's brain 04-11-05, 01:53 AM	Im pretty sure they are outsider forms with +10 NA ... the CO board had a list of the best forms a while, back. Troglodyte is indeed pretty good too though, multiattack as a racial bonus feat too.
stamhaven 04-11-05, 08:15 AM	How about limiting it to forms of your type with racial HD equal or lower than your racial HD (no 5hd cap,and still removes most troublesome outsiders as well as troublesome humanoids like lizardfolk and trogs). If a character is playing a race with many racial HD they will likely delay getting AS by at least 3 levels over a wizard making it first availible at ECL 6 (just 1 shy of a human wizard getting polymorph). 1 HD/non templated outsiders include both planetouched, lantern archons, and bladelings, but not dretches, lemures, imps, quasits etc. Lanterns can fly (judgement call on weaather it's Su or natural) and have +4 NA, but those light rays are easily ruled Ex abilities not gained (though again a DM judgement call weather they're considered a natural weapon... i say not) regardless that glowing blod form would preclude spellcasting and possibly even talking which would probably move it away from a broken AS form to an only sometimes handy for mobility. Another less drastic option for an Aasimar sorcerer, is restricting him from taking forms with the evil subtype (unless he wants to become evil himself). Arrowhawk (juvinile) is only learnable throgh an encounter or summon nature's ally IV, and in general when a party member can cast that, they're able to cast polymorph which is much more dangerous than even flull outsider alter self options. Being able to fly with that 2nd level spell while a human couldn't isn't that bad if it blocks further casting and is only availible to that character at ECL 5.
Seeker95 04-11-05, 06:41 PM	It realy depends on how many books you use with monsters in them as to how powerful Alter Self can get.This is a very important distinction. For "core books only" games, there is a general semblance of balance. But with each new book come new races, monsters and powers, each one trying to out-power the one before it.
Mav.rik 04-12-05, 03:52 AM	We have a quirky character in an underdark campaign with the same issue.. Try a human who takes the otherworldy feat and is now classed as a native outsider. I have put together a Knowledge Check role for him using Knowledege Planes to be able to change into an outsider type of creature... Xorn is the one you want to worry about... 3hd and +12NA !!! But do remember he cant turn into his non class.. so cant turn into a humaniod only an outsider.. Very wierd situation, but it works OK Mav
Shemeska the Marauder 04-12-05, 04:20 AM	Guys. Keep in mind the conceptual differences between a true outsider (celestials, fiends, slaadi, modrons etc) and a native outsider. Orders of magnitude apart. You should be rightfully laughing at anyone who tries to justify using Alter Self to turn from a native outsider into the form of a full outsider. Getting (ex) abilities of the form is just icing on the cake of tweek'ism. I'd allow a native outsider to take forms relating to the mortal side of their heritage, ie non outsider humanoid critters along with planetouched critters that are related to their particular heritage. So I'd allow an elven tiefling to take any mortal humanoid form as well as any sort of tiefling form (but probably not aasimar or genasi, given the difference in their origins).
Seeker95 04-12-05, 07:52 AM	Shemeska's approach has now become my own. Thanks Shemeska!
stamhaven 04-12-05, 09:22 AM	If you're going by the book, remember that Alter Self doesn't grant the ex qualities in general, just the "physical qualities", heck even polymorph only grants Ex special attacks, not generic qualities without a house rule. I far prefer limiting it to gross body type, (not allowing any new limbs, tails or wings if the original didn't have it fits with this) Xorn, arrowhawk, lantern archon all would not qualify, getting a climb speed or swim speed from webbing seem fine to me. Alter self has a bunch of mechanics and balance problems. Among them, the natural armor bonus from it is potentially far too high for the level of the spell and with the right base type it can be far better than enlarge person for getting reach and other size benefits along with natural armor. The other big problem is that it is of next to no disguise value to bigger races. Taking away the aspects that make it distasteful to DM's (natural armor, size change, extra limbs, and flight mostly for me) and loosening the type and HD restriction and not granting/removing bonus feats or other ex qualities (niether grants nor takes away nightvision or other special senses). That would leave it with granting natural weapons, movement mode (keeping the limb restrictions in mind), and the disguise bonus that can't be disbelieved. Polymorph's problems come from both not enough and too much, the stat changes are what get out of hand most often and certain non attack Ex qualities are too strong to grant en mass while others make sense sense, are not too strong but are not covered in the written rules. The simple fix for the uber ex qualities like spell resistance, fast healing, and regeneration, is to make them all Su abilities. My favorite tweak for out of control physical stats is allowing you to take forms with physical stats within a certain caster level dependent range of your own (reduces the appeal of dump stats being ignored).
wonderland666 04-12-05, 09:38 AM	Where is the problem with a Sorcerer having na +12? it doesn't matter. A Xorn can't use a spellcomponent pounch, so that item would meld into the new form. And: a normal fighter with a weapon isn't the real enemy of a spellcaster, an enemy with improved grappel is more a problem, and that's a touchattack. Okay you can change into an air mephit, with good fly and na +6, thats not so far away from a tryglo. The fly is the +1 Ecl of the Assimar.
RaspK FOG 04-12-05, 05:27 PM	Sorry if I get a little wild here but how many levels does the sorcerer have, and what knowledge does he have of any outsiders?