Alter Self and size changes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alter Self and size changes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Warlawk
05-25-07, 03:53 AM The alter self spell allows you to shift to one size smaller or larger than your base size.

It does state that you retain your own stats (str is the main concern here) but you gain the physical characteristics of whatever you shift into. If you shift to a large form from medium do you get the corresponding +8 str, -2 dex +2 con +2 natural armor -1 ac/ab?

Any reference to a printed or SRD ruling on this would be fantastic. This is for a race which has Alter Self as an innate ability at will, if that makes a difference.
groveborn
05-25-07, 04:53 AM All size rules still apply, so yes, you'd gain the benefits of growing, or shrinking. The only limiting factor is that you must remain the same type. Humanoid to humanoid, monstrous humanoid to monstrous humanoid, giant to giant, so on and so forth.
Warlawk
05-25-07, 05:00 AM Thank you, still looking to see if that is clarified anywhere in print... to be honest I am not sure I want it to come into play in our game (I'm playing, not DMing) as it might give my trip focused monk a bit too much oomph in relation to the other PC's.

Yes, I was aware of the "type" limitations. The DM wanted to run a quasi-evil (in the sense that we are self serving eveil, not homacidal-maniac evil) game focused on the Faeyrie (sp?)... the demonic sun elves in the Forgotten Empires book. So we are humanoid with outsider subtype.
ArcTan
05-25-07, 05:23 AM Outsider isn't a subtype, it's a type. You can never simultaneously be both a humanoid and an outsider. You're one or the other. You can be an outsider with the augmented humanoid subtype (which only means that you used to be a humanoid and now you're an outsider) or, I suppose, vice versa, a humanoid with the augmented outsider subtype (though I don't think any of those exist).

You can also be a humanoid with the *extraplanar* subtype, which is different -- all it means is that you come from another plane, but you're still just a humanoid nonetheless, not a spiritual being like an outsider.

It doesn't matter, anyway. You can only have one type, and it's type, not subtype, that matters for alter self. Tieflings, for instance, can only turn into other outsiders (tieflings, aasimar, genasi, etc.), never into vanilla humans or elves or orcs.
Warlawk
05-25-07, 06:03 AM Thanks for the derailing on a completely unrelated tangent. Call it a house rule, call it whatever you want... it's not at all relevant to the requested ifnormation, but thanks for the bump.
ArcTan
05-25-07, 08:42 AM As far as the original question, no, you do not get any changes to your attribute scores from growing and shrinking. The only modifiers *inherent* to being a different size are listed here:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLi ttleCreaturesInCombat

No matter what, a Large character always takes a -1 modifier to attack and AC, a +4 modifier to grapple, a -4 modifier to Hide, and a 10 ft. reach if they're "tall" (i.e. bipedal or otherwise have arm-like forelimbs). These are the only modifiers that are part of the definition of being Large.

Now, Large creatures *tend* to actually have *higher* attack bonuses than Medium creatures, because they *tend* to have higher Str scores. This has nothing to do with the state of being Large itself, which actually decreases your attack bonus.

The "+8 str, -2 dex +2 con +2 natural armor" you're quoting is not part of *being* Large. It is from this section:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases

This is a section about what attributes monsters gain when they increase a size category *as a result of increasing HD*, not what happens when a spellcaster increases a size category by magic. Two completely different things. A monster does get overall stronger, tougher and better as it levels up. It reaches certain points in its level progression as a monster where it gets bigger, stronger, and harder to kill all at once. A magic spell does *not* give you all of these benefits -- it may give you some, or it may give you none. It depends on the spell.

Enlarge person, for instance, specifically says that it give you a +2 size bonus to Str and a -2 size penalty to Dex -- *not* a +8 increase in Str. Notice that the ability score increases in the Improving Monsters section are about *actually* increasing the base ability score because the monster's been improved, not giving it a "size bonus" to Str. In other words, the Improving Monsters ability score increase stacks with a size bonus. If it were possible to advance an Orc from a regular Orc to a Large Orc by gaining HD (it isn't, but pretend it is) then you could take that Large Orc and cast enlarge person on him to temporarily make him Huge, at which point he'd have a total of +10 more Str than an ordinary Orc. (He would *not*, however, have +16 more Str, which is what he'd have if he levelled up over time and became Huge naturally.)

Magical size bonuses to stats are not consistent. Enlarge person gives you +2 Str -2 Dex. Righteous might, a better spell, gives you +4 Str +2 Con and leaves Dex alone. Whereas animal growth gives the animal +8 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex.

Which means that it's not consistent from spell to spell, and you can only go by what the individual spell says.

Which means that when alter self says you keep all of your ability scores, you keep all of your ability scores. If you can find a way to turn into a Large creature, you still have the exact same stats as you did as a Medium creature. The only things you change are the things inherent to size, the -1 AC/AB, +4 grapple, -4 Hide.
ArcTan
05-25-07, 08:53 AM Also, there's no Large-sized Outsiders *or* Humanoids that are legal targets for alter self I can think of in core. Alter self caps at 5 HD, and there are very, very few Large creatures with 5 HD or less, and I can't think of any that are Outsiders or Humanoids.

And I can't actually think of any core Large Humanoids at all, or even think of any from the splats -- the Giant Type is kind of defined as being the one for human-shaped creatures of size Large and up.

I mean, houserule whatever you want -- houserule that alter self gives you +8 Str if you want, though I consider that to be grossly overpowered for a 2nd-level spell, since it's strictly better than bull's strength -- but by RAW you can't even use alter self to become Large, even if you're a Tiefling, even if you're using some kind of houserule that lets you be Humanoid and Outsider at once. (Technically, even if there were such a thing as the Outsider subtype, you'd still only be allowed to change into Humanoids if your type was Humanoid. Subtype is irrelevant for alter self.)

The only time I can remember using alter self to effectively change size was in an Eberron campaign as a Warforged, who gets access to the forms Warforged Charger (essentially a Large Warforged with few other benefits) and Warforged Scout (essentially a Small Warforged with few other benefits). Which seems fair, because Warforged otherwise lose out on low-level size-changing magic, thanks to being immune to enlarge and reduce person.
Warlawk
05-25-07, 12:57 PM Thank you, that is the exact type of concise information needed. This subject had come up in the campaign and I was hoping to circumvent that mess.

Faeyrie get a slew of racial boni and advantages, the Dm pretty much said you have all these advantages, are humanoid but you are effected to some degree by A, B, C and D as an outsider would be so essentially you have the outsider "subtype". Not technically by the book, but it fits the game and circumstances.

As it[Alter Self] is an innate ability for us, he is pretty generous with letting us use it as long as we don't try to abuse it too far. It is a fairly basic thing to simply say "I am shifting to myself, but large sized"... again, not technically by the book but as long as we don't abuse it it should be fine. Which is why I wanted to get some clear information on this subject regarding another player before it came up in play. There have been some questionable interpretations of the rules on a few similar things, and I was trying to nip this abuse before it becomes an issue.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Warlawk 05-25-07, 03:53 AM	The alter self spell allows you to shift to one size smaller or larger than your base size. It does state that you retain your own stats (str is the main concern here) but you gain the physical characteristics of whatever you shift into. If you shift to a large form from medium do you get the corresponding +8 str, -2 dex +2 con +2 natural armor -1 ac/ab? Any reference to a printed or SRD ruling on this would be fantastic. This is for a race which has Alter Self as an innate ability at will, if that makes a difference.
groveborn 05-25-07, 04:53 AM	All size rules still apply, so yes, you'd gain the benefits of growing, or shrinking. The only limiting factor is that you must remain the same type. Humanoid to humanoid, monstrous humanoid to monstrous humanoid, giant to giant, so on and so forth.
Warlawk 05-25-07, 05:00 AM	Thank you, still looking to see if that is clarified anywhere in print... to be honest I am not sure I want it to come into play in our game (I'm playing, not DMing) as it might give my trip focused monk a bit too much oomph in relation to the other PC's. Yes, I was aware of the "type" limitations. The DM wanted to run a quasi-evil (in the sense that we are self serving eveil, not homacidal-maniac evil) game focused on the Faeyrie (sp?)... the demonic sun elves in the Forgotten Empires book. So we are humanoid with outsider subtype.
ArcTan 05-25-07, 05:23 AM	Outsider isn't a subtype, it's a type. You can never simultaneously be both a humanoid and an outsider. You're one or the other. You can be an outsider with the augmented humanoid subtype (which only means that you used to be a humanoid and now you're an outsider) or, I suppose, vice versa, a humanoid with the augmented outsider subtype (though I don't think any of those exist). You can also be a humanoid with the extraplanar subtype, which is different -- all it means is that you come from another plane, but you're still just a humanoid nonetheless, not a spiritual being like an outsider. It doesn't matter, anyway. You can only have one type, and it's type, not subtype, that matters for alter self. Tieflings, for instance, can only turn into other outsiders (tieflings, aasimar, genasi, etc.), never into vanilla humans or elves or orcs.
Warlawk 05-25-07, 06:03 AM	Thanks for the derailing on a completely unrelated tangent. Call it a house rule, call it whatever you want... it's not at all relevant to the requested ifnormation, but thanks for the bump.
ArcTan 05-25-07, 08:42 AM	As far as the original question, no, you do not get any changes to your attribute scores from growing and shrinking. The only modifiers inherent to being a different size are listed here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLi ttleCreaturesInCombat No matter what, a Large character always takes a -1 modifier to attack and AC, a +4 modifier to grapple, a -4 modifier to Hide, and a 10 ft. reach if they're "tall" (i.e. bipedal or otherwise have arm-like forelimbs). These are the only modifiers that are part of the definition of being Large. Now, Large creatures tend to actually have higher attack bonuses than Medium creatures, because they tend to have higher Str scores. This has nothing to do with the state of being Large itself, which actually decreases your attack bonus. The "+8 str, -2 dex +2 con +2 natural armor" you're quoting is not part of being Large. It is from this section: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases This is a section about what attributes monsters gain when they increase a size category as a result of increasing HD, not what happens when a spellcaster increases a size category by magic. Two completely different things. A monster does get overall stronger, tougher and better as it levels up. It reaches certain points in its level progression as a monster where it gets bigger, stronger, and harder to kill all at once. A magic spell does not give you all of these benefits -- it may give you some, or it may give you none. It depends on the spell. Enlarge person, for instance, specifically says that it give you a +2 size bonus to Str and a -2 size penalty to Dex -- not a +8 increase in Str. Notice that the ability score increases in the Improving Monsters section are about actually increasing the base ability score because the monster's been improved, not giving it a "size bonus" to Str. In other words, the Improving Monsters ability score increase stacks with a size bonus. If it were possible to advance an Orc from a regular Orc to a Large Orc by gaining HD (it isn't, but pretend it is) then you could take that Large Orc and cast enlarge person on him to temporarily make him Huge, at which point he'd have a total of +10 more Str than an ordinary Orc. (He would not, however, have +16 more Str, which is what he'd have if he levelled up over time and became Huge naturally.) Magical size bonuses to stats are not consistent. Enlarge person gives you +2 Str -2 Dex. Righteous might, a better spell, gives you +4 Str +2 Con and leaves Dex alone. Whereas animal growth gives the animal +8 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex. Which means that it's not consistent from spell to spell, and you can only go by what the individual spell says. Which means that when alter self says you keep all of your ability scores, you keep all of your ability scores. If you can find a way to turn into a Large creature, you still have the exact same stats as you did as a Medium creature. The only things you change are the things inherent to size, the -1 AC/AB, +4 grapple, -4 Hide.
ArcTan 05-25-07, 08:53 AM	Also, there's no Large-sized Outsiders or Humanoids that are legal targets for alter self I can think of in core. Alter self caps at 5 HD, and there are very, very few Large creatures with 5 HD or less, and I can't think of any that are Outsiders or Humanoids. And I can't actually think of any core Large Humanoids at all, or even think of any from the splats -- the Giant Type is kind of defined as being the one for human-shaped creatures of size Large and up. I mean, houserule whatever you want -- houserule that alter self gives you +8 Str if you want, though I consider that to be grossly overpowered for a 2nd-level spell, since it's strictly better than bull's strength -- but by RAW you can't even use alter self to become Large, even if you're a Tiefling, even if you're using some kind of houserule that lets you be Humanoid and Outsider at once. (Technically, even if there were such a thing as the Outsider subtype, you'd still only be allowed to change into Humanoids if your type was Humanoid. Subtype is irrelevant for alter self.) The only time I can remember using alter self to effectively change size was in an Eberron campaign as a Warforged, who gets access to the forms Warforged Charger (essentially a Large Warforged with few other benefits) and Warforged Scout (essentially a Small Warforged with few other benefits). Which seems fair, because Warforged otherwise lose out on low-level size-changing magic, thanks to being immune to enlarge and reduce person.
Warlawk 05-25-07, 12:57 PM	Thank you, that is the exact type of concise information needed. This subject had come up in the campaign and I was hoping to circumvent that mess. Faeyrie get a slew of racial boni and advantages, the Dm pretty much said you have all these advantages, are humanoid but you are effected to some degree by A, B, C and D as an outsider would be so essentially you have the outsider "subtype". Not technically by the book, but it fits the game and circumstances. As it[Alter Self] is an innate ability for us, he is pretty generous with letting us use it as long as we don't try to abuse it too far. It is a fairly basic thing to simply say "I am shifting to myself, but large sized"... again, not technically by the book but as long as we don't abuse it it should be fine. Which is why I wanted to get some clear information on this subject regarding another player before it came up in play. There have been some questionable interpretations of the rules on a few similar things, and I was trying to nip this abuse before it becomes an issue.