Alter Self doubt [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alter Self doubt [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DorienAenor
03-27-07, 09:10 PM Ok, if you are a Druid and you got a way to use Alter Self (maybe a potion or a item that can make you cast this spell without a command) and you are wildshaped into a bear, can you use Alter Self to become a human (can talk, and use spells, yadda, yadda, yadda) with the stats of your wild-shaped form? like, 30 str of a Dire Bear?

Thanks,

See you good folk,

Felipe.
Arthur_Pendragon
03-27-07, 09:23 PM While I don't think the bear can drink a potion of Alter Self (that is I don't think a bear has the nessecary motor control to open the flask and drink) even if such an item did exist I myself as a DM would aim at what I would feel is the the spirit of the spells effects rather than mechanics, I would argue it would allow the druid to select altered features of his present bear form (because once you select what appears alteration you use its set, you don't keep getting to change your details once you set it at the activation of the spell). I would argue that in a sense his present "normal" form is the bear. Because if you interpret the "normal" form as his human form, and the your stats don't change part, in order for a player to claim the ability to play a human with bear strength is really abusing the mechanics rather than using the spell what it was made for.
runestar
03-27-07, 10:17 PM In theory, anyone could use a potion. The bear doesn't have to uncork the vial, he just swallows the entire vial and chews. Alternatively, potions don't have to come in bottles. There are variants contained in grass packets, with a straw for easy drinking(designed for use underwater, but should be equally applicable here).

However, there is no such thing as a potion of alter self. Some wondrous item could work though.

Not sure how it would interact though.:P
DorienAenor
03-27-07, 10:43 PM Not sure how it would interact though.:P

Mmmm maybe the Druid would only get the form of a human person and the ability to talk and use little itens, but any magical connection to the world would be lost since it was unfunction while in bear form (and he would need to get Natural Spell feat to cast spells again) and all his equips would still unfunction melded in his bear form. So, the Druid get the shape of a human, can talk and use weapons (only if it was not melded in his wildshape), but will need a Natural Spell to cast and a Wild armor to be protected. Even his ability to talk could be lost, it´s up to the DM.
ATroubledMarco
03-27-07, 10:48 PM I thought that non-humanoid forms could use alter self only as appropriate for their shapes.

So that, by my interpretation, the wildshaped druid could only use the alter self to shape his bear to appear as different animals of similar size.
DorienAenor
03-27-07, 10:56 PM I thought that non-humanoid forms could use alter self only as appropriate for their shapes.

So that, by my interpretation, the wildshaped druid could only use the alter self to shape his bear to appear as different animals of similar size.

As the PhB errata says, the Wild Shape ability function like Alternate Form (MM) and no matter what form you have changed, you still on your natural type and sub-type, like Dragon, Humanoid, Migical Beast or whatever you are. So, a Dragon that alter his form to a humanoid (most Dragons can assume any humanoid or animal form) still a valid target to spells that only affect Dragons creatures.
Metamagick
03-27-07, 11:24 PM I know their a LARGE forum about Alter Self. It has good things to shape shift into and whatnot. Maybe this ? is mentioned.

:::Metamagick:::
DorienAenor
03-27-07, 11:42 PM I know their a LARGE forum about Alter Self. It has good things to shape shift into and whatnot. Maybe this ? is mentioned.

:::Metamagick:::

Do you have the link?
Metamagick
03-28-07, 01:06 AM Do you have the link?

Sadly no...I looked for it but I couldnt find it! Maybe a kind soul on these boards can hunt it down......

:::Metamagick:::
ArcTan
03-28-07, 01:46 AM One of the things about Wildshape not being based on polymorph anymore is that we lose the very sensible ruling that because they're all variations on the same effect, they displace each other -- a Wildshape overrides an alter self, an alter self overrides a polymorph, a polymorph overrides another polymorph, etc.

I would still rule this to be true if you find yourself using both. However, it is pretty clear that the errata was meant to stop you using alter self at all.
DorienAenor
03-28-07, 11:35 AM In fact, Wild Shaping in any animal and after using an Alter Self based item allow you to be a human with the strength of a bear. But it is clear that, if your DM allow it, it´s overpowering the Druids ability. But, mechanically it works. I think if your player wants to have a human with the physical strength of an animal using this trick, ok, he can, but we should start looking at some limits to this Wild Shape + Alter Self combo. Maybe you become a bestial version of a human, with some traits of the animal you Wild Shaped into and still a human form (85% human, 15% animal). As you were an animal before casting Alter Self, the DM would say that you still with your animal limits, you can talk, people will understand you, but you don´t have the same ability to talk that you had before Wild Shaping and complex words can´t be spoken, so you can´t cast spells without the Natural Spell feat. Maybe you get -10 on your diplomacy tests and -4 on your Cha stat. After putting some restrictions, all your player will get is prehensile hands and the look of an human intead claws and a bear greatness.:D
PhaedrusXY
03-28-07, 12:17 PM Do you have the link?The link is in my sig. It isn't listed there. I never thought of this before, and have never seen it mentioned. As ArcTan said, this probably* wasn't possible before the silly polymorph errata changed Wild Shape into being based on something else. I do think it is very clever, though. Congrats. I do think it is a bit annoying that you crossposted this into multiple forums, however. So no cookie.

*I've seen people use combos where they would Shapechange into one form to get a Su ability, then Polymorph into something else for stats. I've only seen this in crazy online character building competitions, though. Not in a real game.
DorienAenor
03-28-07, 01:35 PM I do think it is a bit annoying that you crossposted this into multiple forums, however. So no cookie.

I am really sorry for annoying you guys, I know that it is not so polite posting in more than one forum the same thing, but I was thinking that I could have more people posting their point of view of this combo. I guess here at 'Magic and Spells' is the best place for getting any answer about this Alter Self combo, but as it include the use of Wild Shape, a class ability, I thought I could get other kind of answers by posting on 'Classes and Prestige Classes' forum either.

My apologizes,

Felipe.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DorienAenor 03-27-07, 09:10 PM	Ok, if you are a Druid and you got a way to use Alter Self (maybe a potion or a item that can make you cast this spell without a command) and you are wildshaped into a bear, can you use Alter Self to become a human (can talk, and use spells, yadda, yadda, yadda) with the stats of your wild-shaped form? like, 30 str of a Dire Bear? Thanks, See you good folk, Felipe.
Arthur_Pendragon 03-27-07, 09:23 PM	While I don't think the bear can drink a potion of Alter Self (that is I don't think a bear has the nessecary motor control to open the flask and drink) even if such an item did exist I myself as a DM would aim at what I would feel is the the spirit of the spells effects rather than mechanics, I would argue it would allow the druid to select altered features of his present bear form (because once you select what appears alteration you use its set, you don't keep getting to change your details once you set it at the activation of the spell). I would argue that in a sense his present "normal" form is the bear. Because if you interpret the "normal" form as his human form, and the your stats don't change part, in order for a player to claim the ability to play a human with bear strength is really abusing the mechanics rather than using the spell what it was made for.
runestar 03-27-07, 10:17 PM	In theory, anyone could use a potion. The bear doesn't have to uncork the vial, he just swallows the entire vial and chews. Alternatively, potions don't have to come in bottles. There are variants contained in grass packets, with a straw for easy drinking(designed for use underwater, but should be equally applicable here). However, there is no such thing as a potion of alter self. Some wondrous item could work though. Not sure how it would interact though.:P
DorienAenor 03-27-07, 10:43 PM	Not sure how it would interact though.:P Mmmm maybe the Druid would only get the form of a human person and the ability to talk and use little itens, but any magical connection to the world would be lost since it was unfunction while in bear form (and he would need to get Natural Spell feat to cast spells again) and all his equips would still unfunction melded in his bear form. So, the Druid get the shape of a human, can talk and use weapons (only if it was not melded in his wildshape), but will need a Natural Spell to cast and a Wild armor to be protected. Even his ability to talk could be lost, it´s up to the DM.
ATroubledMarco 03-27-07, 10:48 PM	I thought that non-humanoid forms could use alter self only as appropriate for their shapes. So that, by my interpretation, the wildshaped druid could only use the alter self to shape his bear to appear as different animals of similar size.
DorienAenor 03-27-07, 10:56 PM	I thought that non-humanoid forms could use alter self only as appropriate for their shapes. So that, by my interpretation, the wildshaped druid could only use the alter self to shape his bear to appear as different animals of similar size. As the PhB errata says, the Wild Shape ability function like Alternate Form (MM) and no matter what form you have changed, you still on your natural type and sub-type, like Dragon, Humanoid, Migical Beast or whatever you are. So, a Dragon that alter his form to a humanoid (most Dragons can assume any humanoid or animal form) still a valid target to spells that only affect Dragons creatures.
Metamagick 03-27-07, 11:24 PM	I know their a LARGE forum about Alter Self. It has good things to shape shift into and whatnot. Maybe this ? is mentioned. :::Metamagick:::
DorienAenor 03-27-07, 11:42 PM	I know their a LARGE forum about Alter Self. It has good things to shape shift into and whatnot. Maybe this ? is mentioned. :::Metamagick::: Do you have the link?
Metamagick 03-28-07, 01:06 AM	Do you have the link? Sadly no...I looked for it but I couldnt find it! Maybe a kind soul on these boards can hunt it down...... :::Metamagick:::
ArcTan 03-28-07, 01:46 AM	One of the things about Wildshape not being based on polymorph anymore is that we lose the very sensible ruling that because they're all variations on the same effect, they displace each other -- a Wildshape overrides an alter self, an alter self overrides a polymorph, a polymorph overrides another polymorph, etc. I would still rule this to be true if you find yourself using both. However, it is pretty clear that the errata was meant to stop you using alter self at all.
DorienAenor 03-28-07, 11:35 AM	In fact, Wild Shaping in any animal and after using an Alter Self based item allow you to be a human with the strength of a bear. But it is clear that, if your DM allow it, it´s overpowering the Druids ability. But, mechanically it works. I think if your player wants to have a human with the physical strength of an animal using this trick, ok, he can, but we should start looking at some limits to this Wild Shape + Alter Self combo. Maybe you become a bestial version of a human, with some traits of the animal you Wild Shaped into and still a human form (85% human, 15% animal). As you were an animal before casting Alter Self, the DM would say that you still with your animal limits, you can talk, people will understand you, but you don´t have the same ability to talk that you had before Wild Shaping and complex words can´t be spoken, so you can´t cast spells without the Natural Spell feat. Maybe you get -10 on your diplomacy tests and -4 on your Cha stat. After putting some restrictions, all your player will get is prehensile hands and the look of an human intead claws and a bear greatness.:D
PhaedrusXY 03-28-07, 12:17 PM	Do you have the link?The link is in my sig. It isn't listed there. I never thought of this before, and have never seen it mentioned. As ArcTan said, this probably* wasn't possible before the silly polymorph errata changed Wild Shape into being based on something else. I do think it is very clever, though. Congrats. I do think it is a bit annoying that you crossposted this into multiple forums, however. So no cookie. *I've seen people use combos where they would Shapechange into one form to get a Su ability, then Polymorph into something else for stats. I've only seen this in crazy online character building competitions, though. Not in a real game.
DorienAenor 03-28-07, 01:35 PM	I do think it is a bit annoying that you crossposted this into multiple forums, however. So no cookie. I am really sorry for annoying you guys, I know that it is not so polite posting in more than one forum the same thing, but I was thinking that I could have more people posting their point of view of this combo. I guess here at 'Magic and Spells' is the best place for getting any answer about this Alter Self combo, but as it include the use of Wild Shape, a class ability, I thought I could get other kind of answers by posting on 'Classes and Prestige Classes' forum either. My apologizes, Felipe.