Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Magicianguy131 04-11-06, 05:09 PM	Ok so a Master Transmogrifist (pardon my spelling) can gain Alter Self at will. So this is my question: Can you just keep Altering into diffrent people, thus gain immortality because once you get old..BOOM! your a 15 year old girl?
tarkin 04-11-06, 05:14 PM	You are still X age. You only look younger. You will still die when your time comes. You get to look young and have the physical strength of a youngster, which is not a bad thing. But you are not immortal
Need_A_Life 04-11-06, 05:16 PM	I don't see why not. You get so little out of it, just let the wizard/sorcerer have his fun. Look at the optimization boards, within 10 levels things a lot more broken than immortality happens... Pun-Pun being the most popular example at the moment (though I loathe to bring it up)
Novacat 04-11-06, 05:40 PM	Alter Self in no way grants any extension of the subject's life-span. Stop trying to be cheesy.
True Cavalier 04-12-06, 03:07 AM	I don't see why not. I do - It's too low level of a spell to be able to do that. Just find a 18-year-old kid that looks like what you did, and cast Magic Jar. Or you could try a 12-year-old, to make sure that he will have no class levels (and therefore no chance to make his save! :P 18years means he could be a fully trained paladin).
Mysticaloctopus 04-12-06, 07:34 AM	Just become a Lich! If you're willing to use magic jar to permanently steal someone's body, you're evil enough to Lich yourself. I had a gnome BBEG who Liched herself not long after the PCs met her. They even helped her recover from the strange illness she contracted, which they never identified. The Lich was a popular servant in the castle, a maid I think, and so she spread a magical illness through the food she delivered. There are ways of living forever, but a lot of them involve using Evil.
Witch 04-12-06, 07:44 AM	Green star adept is one of the few good ways to do it, I think.
Mysticaloctopus 04-12-06, 07:47 AM	Green star adept... Which book's that from? It soudns familliar, but i'm not sure where I saw it.
maghana 04-12-06, 07:56 AM	or be an Elan or a Warforged or some other immortal race ... or you could be a race of the same Type and then 'Alter self' to one of the immortal races and you would not age since this is part of the 'physical quality' as defined by the Alter Self spell :)
Novacat 04-12-06, 08:07 AM	Green Star Adept is in Complete Arcane.
teclis 04-12-06, 08:10 AM	alter self will not grant imortality, heck, extended lifespan is an epic feat. every race that is not immortal has a certain variable max lifespan. the DM secretly rolls this, (when it becomes relevant) and you don't live beyond that, when your time comes, you croak, either a heart attack, organ failure, if your an alienist your stolen away by unspeakable horrors, if your exalted maybe you get a chariot of fire, but unless you become a lich, gain 10 levels in green star adept, or take the epic feat extended lifespan, you die when your time is up!
Shaggy_Shaggs 04-12-06, 08:48 AM	Or you cast a Delayed Reincarnate (or emulate it with Miracle) on yourself, then CDG yourself and intentionally fail your saving throw, to get a new young adult body to work with, and the lifespan that goes with it.
darokinblade 04-12-06, 11:53 AM	If I were youre DM, I'ld smack you. j/k! Immortality with a Level 2 spell. Oh thats close to the power level of Flaming Sphere! But seriously, in the alter self description, it specifically says you do not gain any Ex special qualities of the new form, and personally i see life span a racial Extraordinary special quality, and therefore would not be granted by Alter Self . This is further backed up with the fact that your racial type and subtype do not change, since you are still human after you cast it, you should have a human life span, etc... Just my 2c.
Bulletproof_Condom 04-12-06, 12:15 PM	"Me from five minutes ago" is not a valid form for alter self.
maghana 04-12-06, 02:06 PM	If I were youre DM, I'ld smack you. j/k! Immortality with a Level 2 spell. Oh thats close to the power level of Flaming Sphere! But seriously, in the alter self description, it specifically says you do not gain any Ex special qualities of the new form, and personally i see life span a racial Extraordinary special quality, and therefore would not be granted by Alter Self . This is further backed up with the fact that your racial type and subtype do not change, since you are still human after you cast it, you should have a human life span, etc... Just my 2c. I too would smack this player, but there is no 'Ex' (or 'Su' or 'Sp') that refers to 'lifespan' that I remember, so this is not supported by RAW. Also I think that 'lifespan' qualifies as being a 'physical qualities'. Type (and subtype) do not necessarily mean a fixed age. It depends more on the race in this case.
ShinAkuma2 04-12-06, 02:20 PM	Or you cast a Delayed Reincarnate (or emulate it with Miracle) on yourself, then CDG yourself and intentionally fail your saving throw, to get a new young adult body to work with, and the lifespan that goes with it. ...That's just not right.
Aufenshauft 04-12-06, 03:23 PM	Alter Self is a perfectly viable method of immortality. If you get natural attacks and other 'natural' physical qualities, then so be it. You are permanently one dispel magic away from becoming a dust pile, and you better have a great duration on the spell. Everyone rolls a 20 against you sometime.
Feor 04-12-06, 06:24 PM	Alter Self would not result in Immortality. Dying of old age, in D&D terms, is a matter of the age of the soul, not the body. Hence you can't ressurect a character who has died of old age, since his soul is too fragile to make th return trip from the afterlife. (ref: Complete Divine) Also, about the Reincarnation thing, that could be a very bad idea, especially if the DM decides that because it's delayed, the magic's ended up "twisted" a little, and he automatically gets to choose what you come back as. Your best bet for immortality, if you're really that interested, would be to research the possiblity of finding the Deathless equivalent of the Lich.
Lady Maedhros 04-12-06, 07:02 PM	would be to research the possiblity of finding the Deathless equivalent of the Lich. Not so, if you're worried about alignment. A dry lich, as described in Sandstorm, is the ultimate end of a Walker in the Waste, which is a pretty damn nice PrC for a wizard besides (if you don't mind being a walking ecological disaster). At any rate, a dry lich is any nongood, so you don't have to be evil, just kind of an empathyless bastard.
Mist of Shadows 04-12-06, 07:43 PM	Actually sort of :) You would have immortality of a kind. You could keep changing from body to body. If you had a way to keep the alter self ability up all of the time. (as in 24/7 364 days of the year. The problem is this, the minute you had alterself dispelled or you walked into an anti magic field you are a dead man. Your body would still age would still break down. Though that would be an interesting story arc for a big bad.
Pennarin 04-13-06, 02:16 AM	Immortality's a lot easier to obtain than one would think. A simple epic spell (can be dispelled through epic dispel), or getting your hand on an artifact (can be stolen), or a powerful template can all grant immortality. Dark Sun is full of immortality options, or close to immortality: the Athasian Dragon epic PrC confers agelessness on the very first level, the Champion of Rajaat template also confers agelessness, and there are two spells that exist and that can maintain you young indefinetly: Vampiric Youthfulness Necromancy [Evil] Level: Wiz 9, Dead Heart 9 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 hour Range: Touch Target: Living, corporeal creature touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fortitude negates Spell Resistance: Yes This spell makes you younger at the expense of another creature. The victim must have Hit Dice equal or greater than your character level and must be at full hit points when you cast the spell. The caster and the victim must be in continuous contact throughout the casting of this spell; any interruption negates the spell. At the completion of this spell, the victim ages ten years while you become one year younger. Outsiders and plants are immune to this spell. Protection from Time Abjuration Level: Wiz 8 Components: V, S, M, XP Casting Time: 1 minute Range: Touch Target: One creature or object touched Duration: 1 month/2 levels Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) You protect the target from the adverse effects of aging. This spell makes a living creature immune to natural, magical, and psionic aging. This spell continues on beyond the creature’s death, and time limits for spells like speak with dead or raise dead do not count the time that protection from time is in effect. This spell can be cast on a dead creature. The target moves through time at the same rate as other beings. A living subject must still eat, drink and rest as usual; it simply does not age. This spell does not affect the duration of other spells. Material Components: An hourglass. XP Cost: 3,000 XP.
Vaelan 04-13-06, 02:44 AM	Dying of old age, in D&D terms, is a matter of the age of the soul, not the body. Hence you can't ressurect a character who has died of old age, since his soul is too fragile to make th return trip from the afterlife. You're wrong. You are drawing a conclusion that is in no way substantiated by the rules or reason. The rules give that as a reason why you can't resurrect people that have passed on due to old age. It does not say that it is the entire basis of aging. Consider this: Liches possess and make use of their souls. If age is entirely a matter of one's soul, then the fact that they have become undead is irrelevant to their mortality because their soul still ages and will eventually become too fragile to continue life. Obviously this isn't the case, and thus your interpretation is obviously incorrect. Also, about the Reincarnation thing, that could be a very bad idea, especially if the DM decides that because it's delayed, the magic's ended up "twisted" a little, and he automatically gets to choose what you come back as. Any idea is a bad idea when you assume that the DM is going to make up arbitrary bull**** to screw you over.
maghana 04-13-06, 02:50 AM	Actually sort of :) You would have immortality of a kind. You could keep changing from body to body. If you had a way to keep the alter self ability up all of the time. (as in 24/7 364 days of the year. The problem is this, the minute you had alterself dispelled or you walked into an anti magic field you are a dead man. Your body would still age would still break down. Though that would be an interesting story arc for a big bad. Is this really how this works ? - I mean, here you have a body that ages normally; then you change your body to one that doesn't age or age very slowly and if you get dispelled you return to your old body and continue from there. Why would the first body still be aging ? Alter Self would not result in Immortality. Dying of old age, in D&D terms, is a matter of the age of the soul, not the body. Hence you can't ressurect a character who has died of old age, since his soul is too fragile to make th return trip from the afterlife. (ref: Complete Divine) But what if you ressurect a(n) [old] character that hasn't died of old age, and he/she/it gets a "new body", you would have to keep track of both the soul's age and the new body's age. This seems silly. Besides aren't souls ageless ? ;)
maghana 04-13-06, 02:56 AM	Immortality's a lot easier to obtain than one would think. A simple epic spell (can be dispelled through epic dispel), or getting your hand on an artifact (can be stolen), or a powerful template can all grant immortality. Dark Sun is full of immortality options, or close to immortality: the Athasian Dragon epic PrC confers agelessness on the very first level, the Champion of Rajaat template also confers agelessness, and there are two spells that exist and that can maintain you young indefinetly: Vampiric Youthfulness Necromancy [Evil] Level: Wiz 9, Dead Heart 9 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 hour Range: Touch Target: Living, corporeal creature touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Fortitude negates Spell Resistance: Yes This spell makes you younger at the expense of another creature. The victim must have Hit Dice equal or greater than your character level and must be at full hit points when you cast the spell. The caster and the victim must be in continuous contact throughout the casting of this spell; any interruption negates the spell. At the completion of this spell, the victim ages ten years while you become one year younger. Outsiders and plants are immune to this spell. Protection from Time Abjuration Level: Wiz 8 Components: V, S, M, XP Casting Time: 1 minute Range: Touch Target: One creature or object touched Duration: 1 month/2 levels Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) You protect the target from the adverse effects of aging. This spell makes a living creature immune to natural, magical, and psionic aging. This spell continues on beyond the creature’s death, and time limits for spells like speak with dead or raise dead do not count the time that protection from time is in effect. This spell can be cast on a dead creature. The target moves through time at the same rate as other beings. A living subject must still eat, drink and rest as usual; it simply does not age. This spell does not affect the duration of other spells. Material Components: An hourglass. XP Cost: 3,000 XP. Ah those where the days ... if only Dark Sun was 3.5 I could die a happy man :D - but I also racall a spell in 3.X that sucked life out of a creature. Something like 1 week for every ability drained or something ... can't remember where :( EDIT: Found it ... 'Steal Life' p106 BoVD :)
Millennium 04-13-06, 09:47 AM	I suppose I'd allow something like that, but keep in mind, all it takes is one good cast of dispel magic to blow this method out of the water. And I don't even want to think of the results the next time you face a beholder...
was_fired 04-13-06, 09:54 AM	It can work until the duration ends or the spell is supressed. Likewise heading to the astral can provide temporary imortality (until you leave). Should the spell end however you return to your bodies age which adds time from when it left off and suddenly you can find yourself a pile of ash. Reincarnate is the least evil bet for imortality even if it involves stabbing yourself through every sixty years or so.
Khisanth Magus 04-13-06, 10:14 AM	There is a variant to the lich template in libris mortis for a good lich. Granted they usually need one heck of a reason to do it, but it is possible. As for the alter self immortality...i agree with the people who say that it would work, but if you are ever forced to return to your true form you would die if it was past your normal lifespan.
maghana 04-13-06, 11:01 AM	As for the alter self immortality...i agree with the people who say that it would work, but if you are ever forced to return to your true form you would die if it was past your normal lifespan. Should the spell end however you return to your bodies age which adds time from when it left off and suddenly you can find yourself a pile of ash. I suppose I'd allow something like that, but keep in mind, all it takes is one good cast of dispel magic to blow this method out of the water. And I don't even want to think of the results the next time you face a beholder... Why ? - I don't see any rules that cover this, so why would you suddenly age all the time spend in the other form ?!. The 'old' body does not even exist while your are in the other form, so why would it age ?
Iver Gearsham 04-13-06, 01:02 PM	It can work until the duration ends or the spell is supressed. Likewise heading to the astral can provide temporary imortality (until you leave). Should the spell end however you return to your bodies age which adds time from when it left off and suddenly you can find yourself a pile of ash. Reincarnate is the least evil bet for imortality even if it involves stabbing yourself through every sixty years or so. So cast a spell like Iron Body (Polymorph any Object Rock or tree with Contingency to return your self normal) that changes you into a construct so when the rush of time happens you will survive in the Ageless construct body till it is over.
Mist of Shadows 04-13-06, 01:12 PM	You could say you still age because you are only changing the outside part of yourself. that it really is your body on the inside so the aging keeps ticking along. You could say that it's because the reaper doesn't like people cheating him. But mostly it's that people don't like the idea of a low level spell keeping you immortal. Really though if someone wanted to obtain immortality that way I would probably let them. I mean it's not all that big of a deal game wise. Evils are almost there, lichs are, dragons close and such things. I guess it's just how you want to think about things. If you don't see a problem with it then fine let the characters be immortal because it's not their bodies aging. If not then don't let it happen.
jasper 04-13-06, 01:57 PM	Ok I accept your ruling. This means my monsters, npcs, and dmpc can use the spell(s) mention this way also. I call this "if good enough for the pc it better for the monsters) way of thinking. You can try to argue the dm has to make a judgement when two arguements have equal weight. And why tick off your dm.