Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 08-18-06, 01:18 AM	Let's say you're a barbarian 1/bard 4/dragon disciple 10. One of your spells is Alter Self. If you turn yourself into a troglodyte, what's your natural armor bonus? It seems like, since the 1st, 4th, and 7th level natural armor increases from the Dragon Disciple are all class features, you would certainly have a natural armor bonus of +9, just as if you were a troglodyte with seven to nine levels of dragon disciple. However, at 10th level, your natural armor bonus increases to +4, but that's part of adopting the half-dragon template. Alter Self doesn't let you adopt templates, but does let you keep all class features. So would you have a natural armor of +10, or "just" +9?
King_Bulba 08-18-06, 01:40 AM	Interesting. The dragon disciples increases its existing NA and is not a bonus to NA. Since that wording I would say the NA of the altered form would not be increased. You wouldnt get the increase at any level of dragon disciple while in altered form.
JulesCARV 08-18-06, 01:19 PM	Hmm... so you're saying that the natural armor bonus would just be +6, and the class features of the dragon disciple wouldn't count? Personally, from my reading of alter self (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsAtoB.html) and the dragon disciple (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/dragonDisciple.html) class, I can't see any reason that, for the purposes of natural armor, a troglodyte dragon disciple would have a different natural armor bonus than a human dragon disciple altered into a troglodyte, at least from levels 1-9 of the dragon disciple PrC. Here's my understanding. Half-dragon template troglodyte: You gain +10 natural armor. 6 + 4. Simple. Troglodyte dragon disciple: Same, except you get +7 natural armor at 1st level, +8 at 4th, +9 at 7th, and +10 at 10th. Half-dragon template human: alter self doesn't let you assume templates, so turning into a troglodyte doesn't let you assume a troglodyte with the half-dragon template. Level 7 Dragon Disciple human: alter self lets you keep special qualities derived from class features, so you'd apply the boosts to natural armor to the troglodyte's base natural armor, just as if you were a troglodyte who went into the dragon disciple. Level 10 dragon disciple human: Odd case: it isn't clear whether you get it from a class feature or a template. Anyway, though, that's just my take. What's yours?
utilitarian 08-18-06, 03:03 PM	Templates and polymorph variant spells have always been a little peticuliar to me. For instance: a Half Dragon could potentially Perminately Polymorph Any Object himself into a Young Adult dragon, but would be unable to use Alter Self to appear as his old form, since he had a template. Personally I've made the fairly radical suggestion that since templates cannot be assumed by Polymorph variant spells that if you already HAVE a template, it applies to both your normal form and polymorphed form. You're not assuming a new template, simply keeping the effects of your existing template. The dragon disciple arguement presented further supports my proposition, in so far as a Troglodyte Dragon Disciple 10 would be a half dragon troglogdyte. It's a radical proposition, but it would clear up a lot of problems involving templates and polymorph variant spells. Though, I will note: DD10 gives you the Dragon type, which prevents you from using Alter Self to turn into a Troglodyte.
PhaedrusXY 08-19-06, 01:02 AM	Though, I will note: DD10 gives you the Dragon type, which prevents you from using Alter Self to turn into a Troglodyte.But lets you turn into dragons (mainly wyrmlings, but still can be useful). Since the natural armor bonus is a class feature and adds onto your existing natural armor, you'd get it on top of your new form's natural armor. You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levelsNatural Armor Increase (Ex) At 1st, 4th, and 7th level, a dragon disciple gains an increase to the character’s existing natural armor (if any), as indicated on Table: The Dragon Disciple (the numbers represent the total increase gained to that point). As his skin thickens, a dragon disciple takes on more and more of his progenitor’s physical aspect. The bold underlined part is what is important. This is going only from the Alter Self in the SRD. I can't keep up with all the errata they've done on the Polymorph "family" of spells lately... :rolleyes:
runestar 08-19-06, 01:40 AM	Though, I will note: DD10 gives you the Dragon type, which prevents you from using Alter Self to turn into a Troglodyte. I believe you retain the augmented humanoid subtype, which would let you use alter self to transform either into another humanoid or dragon. :) Natural Armor Increase (Ex): At 1st, 4th, and 7th level, a gains an increase to the character’s existing natural armor (if any), as indicated on Table: The Dragon Disciple (the numbers represent the total increase gained to that point). As his skin thickens, a dragon disciple takes on more and more of his progenitor’s physical aspect. The wording is quite clear, IMO, the NA granted by the DD prc will stack on top of tha NA from trodgodyte. :)
utilitarian 08-19-06, 01:12 PM	I believe you retain the augmented humanoid subtype, which would let you use alter self to transform either into another humanoid or dragon. :) No, no I'm afraid not. At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half-dragon templateAnd from the half dragon template: The creature’s type changes to dragon. Size is unchanged. Do not recalculate base attack bonus or saves. So unless you can point out where you gain this subtype (that I've never heard of before), it would appear you're limited to dragons. PhaedrusXY: Well then the ultimate question is, "What is a template?" If a template is an extrordinary quality, then it seems as though you should keep your DD10 half dragon template despite the insistance from the Polymorph school of spells that a templated form cannot be assumed. This sets a prescident which leads to my proposition that any template a caster already has should be carried over to his polymorphed form.
runestar 08-19-06, 11:03 PM	So unless you can point out where you gain this subtype (that I've never heard of before), it would appear you're limited to dragons. Look at the sample half-dragon fighter in the 3.5MM, its type is medium sized dragon(augmented humanoid). :)
utilitarian 08-20-06, 03:36 PM	Look at the sample half-dragon fighter in the 3.5MM, its type is medium sized dragon(augmented humanoid). :) Augmented Subtype A creature receives this subtype whenever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type. While you're right about that, it doesn't say anything about allowing you to act as if you were still your original type for purposes of spells or whatnot. Even if you are augmented, you're still Dragon type.
PhaedrusXY 08-20-06, 05:09 PM	PhaedrusXY: Well then the ultimate question is, "What is a template?" If a template is an extrordinary quality, then it seems as though you should keep your DD10 half dragon template despite the insistance from the Polymorph school of spells that a templated form cannot be assumed. This sets a prescident which leads to my proposition that any template a caster already has should be carried over to his polymorphed form.No, that's not the question. I'm not going to bother trying to answer that question, as it has no real relevance on what we're discussing, as far as I'm concerned. The Dragon Disciple (and similiar classes, like Green Star Adept) is somewhat of an exception to the normal rules, and in no way affects how the rules should be applied in other cases. The normal polymorph rules apply in all other types of cases (indeed, they apply here too...). The reason you keep the natural armor (and other benefits of the template) in this case is because those benefits are gained from class levels. If you were an actual half-dragon, your racial abilities would be lost or retained according to the normal polymorph rules. Whether you think that is "fair", or "makes sense", is another discussion altogether. In that case, I'd answer that all of the existing Polymorph type spells need to be thrown out and entirely replaced.
utilitarian 08-20-06, 05:18 PM	No, that's not the question. I'm not going to bother trying to answer that question, as it has no real relevance on what we're discussing, as far as I'm concerned. The Dragon Disciple (and similiar classes, like Green Star Adept) is somewhat of an exception to the normal rules, and in no way affects how the rules should be applied in other cases. The normal polymorph rules apply in all other types of cases (indeed, they apply here too...). The reason you keep the natural armor (and other benefits of the template) in this case is because those benefits are gained from class levels. If you were an actual half-dragon, your racial abilities would be lost or retained according to the normal polymorph rules. Whether you think that is "fair", or "makes sense", is another discussion altogether. In that case, I'd answer that all of the existing Polymorph type spells need to be thrown out and entirely replaced. Well then you have a contradiction in rules. Polymorph states that you take on the physical characteristics of the new form and lose the charicteristics of your previous form, yet it also states that you retain class features. In the case of a Dragon Disciple your class features ARE the physical characteristics of your previous form. By your reasoning, your polymorphed form would also be stronger than normal (due to the class feature which grants increased strength). Yet we're talking about the increased strength of your normal body. Polymorph clearly says you take the strength of the creature you polymorph into, but your Dragon Disciple levels would add more strength, this conflicting with the previous requirement. My point is that the Polymorph spell doesn't take into account classes or PrCs that adjust physical attributes, let alone ones that include templates.
PhaedrusXY 08-20-06, 05:23 PM	I fail to see the conflict. Yes, your polymorphed form would benefit from your increased strength from dragon disciple levels. It seems easy to resolve using the normal, existing rules. I see no reason to worry about it, change it, or turn it into some kind of argument.