Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Magnus005 12-20-07, 12:08 AM	Greetings! I have a question regarding the various methods of altering shape, those being 'Alter Self' and the various Polymorphs ('Self' and 'Other'). I am curious as to any and all stat changes (beyond what is deemed race inheirent, like Breathweapons, gaze attacks, etc) when these spells and/or abilties come into play. What is, say, the difference between a Dragon using it's 'Alter Self' ability vs a successful use of an opposing wizard using 'Polymorph Other'? For sake of argument, let's say the new form is a human, just to clear the slate for natural abilities, stat bonuses/deficiencies, etc... So do we wind up with a non-classed human with 13d12 hit dice? Would a Dragon maintain it's casting abilities if it was of sufficient age? Let's take it a step further and pick a form without verbal or somatic ability. So now let's say the Dragon chose to hide or was cursed into the form of a swallow or an ant? Do we still have a ridiculously high hitpoint fluffy creature? Are physical stats kept? Does the human or rampaging bunny have 22+ strength still? This has been an age old argument since 1st edition and usually the ultimate stretch of the imagination. Does the rules of Conservation come into play here? Just as a Wish will usually transport an existing object as opposed to creating one, do we still wind up with a Collossal sized bunny or ant in the case of the Polymorph (we know the 'Alter Self' manages sizes, but what else is suppresed <or not>)? Thanks for your input.
Adrian_Crane 12-20-07, 12:18 AM	I'm new to Arcane Casters, but the short rundown of Alter Self as I understand it is thus: You keep all your own stats with the following exceptions: -You gain movement speeds of your new form, including fly/burrow/climb, etc -You gain the NA of your new form (and this plus the above are the big reasons to use the spell...Trog for 6 NA? Please. Avariel for Fly speed? Sure). -You get racial skills and feats, i.e. a Trog's Multiattack but not a Bugbear's Power Attack that it took via class level. You gain the Trog's racial Hide bonus but not its ranks via class levels -You lose Ex abilities related to your original form, but you don't gain Ex or Su abilities of the new form (so you'd lose Darkvision if you were a Dwarf, but wouldn't gain it back by becoming Drow. Kinda odd, but it's RAW). Can't really help with the others, as I'm only a wee little Wizard 4. :D
Stockvillain 12-20-07, 01:09 AM	When you shapechange, you keep your extraordinary abilities, spell-like abilities, and lose your supernatural abilities. You retain all of your class abilities [BAB, saves, skills], and can still cast spells and manifest psionic powers as long as the form that you adopt is capable of performing the required verbal or somatic components [and has access to and can manipulate any required material components]. You gain the physical stats of the form you adopt [with polymorph and shapechange, at least]. If, for some reason, you have the rage ability, it increases the strength score of your current form [so, you will have a rampaging bunny, but he won't be much stronger than a gnome with the flu]. In 3.5, polymorph other doesn't exist. There's just polymorph, which functions like I described, and baleful polymorph. With the baleful version, the target gets a Will save after getting transformed. If he fails, he becomes the creature completely, losing the abilities of his form [all physical and mental stats, as well as all abilities not derived from a class], but he keeps everything derived from a class other than spellcasting, extraordinary abilities, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities. So, yeah, a fluffy bunny with a ton of hit points, unusually high saves, and a mean BAB for that 1-dmg bite attack. So, when I use the spells on myself [my current mage is fond of using transmutations], I prefer adopting humanoid-style forms with superior physical stats [who cares if the war troll form doesn't have regeneration with a polymorph spell? You've still got a great AC, high strength, and oodles of extra hp]. My number 1 choice for shapechanging into is the Solar. You can adopt it as soon as you get shapechange [at 17th level you can adopt a form with up to 34HD], you get DR 15/epic & evil, regeneration 15/epic & evil, SR 32, and flight [among other nifty things]. Honestly, at level 17, what's gonna be hitting you with epic & evil weapons? Plus, the presence of an angel is a lot more socially acceptable than that of a massive red dragon. Hope that helps to clear some of your questions up there. I know I've been wracking my brain about this polymorph/shapechange issue for the last couple weeks, since my mage is about to unleash some unholy butt-kickings on his enemies. Peace out, fellow polymorpher!
ArcTan 12-20-07, 01:24 AM	Greetings! I have a question regarding the various methods of altering shape, those being 'Alter Self' and the various Polymorphs ('Self' and 'Other'). Out of date. Polymorph self and other existed in 3.0, not in 3.5. In any case, have you actually *read* the rules? Every time these same questions come up based on someone apparently never having seen the rules at all rather than having a misunderstanding about them, I get annoyed. (You *do* realize we're not supposed to be here to keep you from having to buy the books themselves, right?) I mean, here: http://www.d20srd.org/ It's most of the information in the books. It's legal, and it's free. Go read it. I am curious as to any and all stat changes (beyond what is deemed race inheirent, like Breathweapons, gaze attacks, etc) when these spells and/or abilties come into play. What is, say, the difference between a Dragon using it's 'Alter Self' ability vs a successful use of an opposing wizard using 'Polymorph Other'? For sake of argument, let's say the new form is a human, just to clear the slate for natural abilities, stat bonuses/deficiencies, etc... So do we wind up with a non-classed human with 13d12 hit dice? Would a Dragon maintain it's casting abilities if it was of sufficient age? Just a quick answer to demonstrate how annoyed I am that you haven't read the books *at all* apparently: Dragons *can't* use alter self to become a Human. A Dragon could only use alter self to become another member of the Dragon Type with less than 5 HD. Dragons *can* use their ability called Alternate Form to become a Human. It works basically like polymorph (with some important changes after the last errata). Let's take it a step further and pick a form without verbal or somatic ability. So now let's say the Dragon chose to hide or was cursed into the form of a swallow or an ant? Do we still have a ridiculously high hitpoint fluffy creature? Are physical stats kept? Does the human or rampaging bunny have 22+ strength still? The spell is now called polymorph any object. Look it up. This has been an age old argument since 1st edition and usually the ultimate stretch of the imagination. Not really. The rules have become far more specific since 1e. Just follow what they say. Does the rules of Conservation come into play here? Just as a Wish will usually transport an existing object as opposed to creating one, do we still wind up with a Collossal sized bunny or ant in the case of the Polymorph (we know the 'Alter Self' manages sizes, but what else is suppresed <or not>)? Thanks for your input. No. Conservation of mass/energy is a completely nonexistent consideration for magic in 3e, as it should be.
ArcTan 12-20-07, 01:27 AM	When you shapechange, you keep your extraordinary abilities, spell-like abilities, and lose your supernatural abilities. Um, no, you don't. Not unless you have SLAs from your class levels, the way a Shadowcaster does. If they're racial SLAs (as SLAs usually are), you lose them. You lose all special qualities associated with your race (rather than your class). In 3.5, polymorph other doesn't exist. There's just polymorph, which functions like I described, and baleful polymorph. Polymorph any object is much closer to the function of polymorph other. With the baleful version, the target gets a Will save after getting transformed. If he fails, he becomes the creature completely, losing the abilities of his form [all physical and mental stats, as well as all abilities not derived from a class], but he keeps everything derived from a class other than spellcasting, extraordinary abilities, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities. So, yeah, a fluffy bunny with a ton of hit points, unusually high saves, and a mean BAB for that 1-dmg bite attack. Um, no, he doesn't. I think you may be behind the times. After the latest errata: You change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD (such as a dog, lizard, monkey, or toad). The subject takes on all the statistics and special abilities of an average member of the new form in place of its own except as follows: * The target retains its own alignment (and personality, within the limits of the new form’s ability scores). * The target retains its own hit points. * The target is treated has having its normal Hit Dice for purpose of adjudicating effects based on HD, such as the sleep spell, though it uses the new form’s base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and all other statistics derived from Hit Dice. * The target also retains the ability to understand (but not to speak) the languages it understood in its original form. It can write in the languages it understands, but only the form is capable of writing in some manner (such as drawing in the dirt with a paw). Baleful polymorph leaves you without your mental states and without your class abilities. Period. I don't know that I entirely like this -- the *implication* is you still have your personality and memories somehow despite an Int of 1, which annoys me -- but it does mean that baleful polymorph is reliably always a disabler, rather than an accidental awesome buff on a psionic character. (Under old rules Psions *wanted* baleful polymorph cast on them.)
Stockvillain 12-20-07, 01:37 AM	Thank you, Arc, I meant to include the "gained from class levels bit." As for your last point, that's kinda why I ignored the 'update' - it made no logical sense. The update needs an update. Frankly, I'm tired of them trying to 'fix' the polymorph issue. It just keeps getting more and more convoluted. Maybe they'll have it worked out by the time 4th edition rolls around, but since I don't plan on playing 4th for quite a while, I'll just stick with what's in the 3.5 PHB.
ArcTan 12-20-07, 01:40 AM	As for your last point, that's kinda why I ignored the 'update' - it made no logical sense. The update needs an update. Both baleful polymorphs are problematic, for me. The later one mainly just because of a minor "sense-making" issue -- but it is minor, especially since feeblemind gives us precedent that losing all your brains doesn't mean you forget who you are or who your friends are or how to speak a language. I do think that's a decent price to pay for the really big issue that old-school baleful polymorph actually buffed rather than disabling an opponent if she happened to have Still and Silent Spell.
Stockvillain 12-20-07, 01:56 AM	Point taken on that account [or natural spell, or surrogate spellcasting, for that matter]. Y'know, from now on, I'll just hand my players the MM, flip to the animal section, and say "here you go, play this tiny monkey, hand me your character sheet." That oughtta solve it, heh.
Magnus005 12-20-07, 03:47 AM	Yes, actually, I do own the books, thank you very much, but I'm posing questions here so I can relate back to my players that not only have I thought on a particular subject, but I have polled the thoughts and opinions of other experienced gamers. I'm sorry if that annoys you, ArcTan, but rather than pick apart this post, why not represent the community instead and offer advice instead of doubting ownership of printed material? If you feel the question is stupid, then say so. You are entitled to your own opinion, but there is no reason to get hostile about it. Despite the snarkiness, however, I do thank you for your time in responding to my earlier question. To quote MM1 v3.5, the Bronze, Gold and Silver Dragons have the ability (which I misquoted, but rather been 'annoyed', you could have pointed this out): Alternate Form (not 'Alter Self' as previously thought): A (bronze, gold, silver) dragon can assume any animal or humanoid form of Medium size or smaller as a standard action three times per day. This ability functions as a Polymorph spell cast on itself at it's caster, except that the dragon does not regain hit points for changing form and can only assume the form of an animal or humanoid. The dragon can remain in it's animal or humanoid form until it chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form. Ok. So unlike Polymorph, no minor regeneration that comes with changing shapes. However, under the 3.5 descriptor of 'Polymorph', we get the following excerpt: 'The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity and the Constitution scores of the new form but retains it's own Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma scores.' So, again, we have the word 'gains'. So does this mean physical stats (SDC) defaults for the 'average' of the species of the form chosen (8-10 human, 27 str brown bear, etc.)? It also reads in that same paragraph: 'It also gains all the extrodinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any special spell-like abilities.' That reads a bit two edged, so obviously it loses original AC, Breathweapon, etc. in favor of what it takes on. So now that 'Alter Self' has been discarded for 'Alternate Form', I apologize for the confusion and welcome additional threads to this post, including those of ArcTan.
ArcTan 12-20-07, 03:33 PM	Yes, actually, I do own the books, thank you very much, but I'm posing questions here so I can relate back to my players that not only have I thought on a particular subject, but I have polled the thoughts and opinions of other experienced gamers. If I've mistaken you, I apologize, but it seemed from stuff like using the terms polymorph self and other and the misuse of alter self that you really hadn't looked over the spells in the PHB before coming here to ask the question. In any case: The Alternate Form ability has been errata'd so it no longer references polymorph or alter self. The current rules for Alternate Form are all here: Alternate Form A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature: * The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well. * The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature). * The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form. * The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form. * The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form. * The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution. * The creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores. * Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses. * The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components. * The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise. * Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped. So, again, we have the word 'gains'. So does this mean physical stats (SDC) defaults for the 'average' of the species of the form chosen (8-10 human, 27 str brown bear, etc.)? Yes. The values given in the Monster Manual. (In the case of a Human, which doesn't exist in the Monster Manual, the Human gets the standard array with no racial modifications -- i.e. 10 or 11 in each stat.) 'It also gains all the extrodinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any special spell-like abilities.' That reads a bit two edged, so obviously it loses original AC, Breathweapon, etc. in favor of what it takes on. Okay, hold up. There are things monsters have called "Special Abilities". They're listed in their own little section in stat blocks. Basic things like AC and BAB are *not* Special Abilities. A creature's AC will probably change when it uses Alternate Form, but exactly how depends on a lot of things -- AC is a stat derived from many sources. Alternate Form will, for instance, change your Dexterity and your Natural Armor score, both of which affect your AC. Special Abilities come in two kinds -- Special Attacks (active) and Special Qualities (passive). SQs, under the new Alternate Form rules, are all lost from the old form and gained from the new form. The old form's *Extraordinary* (Ex) Special Attacks gained from *race* (as opposed to ones gained from class, like Barbarian Rage, which are unaffected) are lost and the new form's Extraordinary Special Attacks are gained, whereas Supernatural and Spell-Like Special Attacks remain the same (except for Breath Weapons and Gaze Attacks, which are specifically lost). Clear enough? BTW, the reason for this errata is that WotC really doesn't want people using alter self and polymorph, the spells, anymore. They're pretty broken as spells, and WotC decided that in their existing form they were unfixable.
Magnus005 12-20-07, 06:21 PM	WOOT! Arc, even if you're a guy, consider yourself kissed! Between the errata and your views, that definitely answered my questions to the 't'! Thank you very much! Game on!:D
Pitiless_Interfector 12-21-07, 03:25 PM	So, when I use the spells on myself [my current mage is fond of using transmutations], I prefer adopting humanoid-style forms with superior physical stats [who cares if the war troll form doesn't have regeneration with a polymorph spell? You've still got a great AC, high strength, and oodles of extra hp]. My number 1 choice for shapechanging into is the Solar. You can adopt it as soon as you get shapechange [at 17th level you can adopt a form with up to 34HD], you get DR 15/epic & evil, regeneration 15/epic & evil, SR 32, and flight [among other nifty things]. Honestly, at level 17, what's gonna be hitting you with epic & evil weapons? Plus, the presence of an angel is a lot more socially acceptable than that of a massive red dragon. Not true. All the more recent printings of the Player's Handbook include the change (my collector's edition certainly does). The maximum HD is now equal to caster level (maximum 25).