Alter Self, Polymorph, Shapechange [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alter Self, Polymorph, Shapechange [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
alexp
09-12-04, 03:44 PM Shapechange says its similar to Polymorph, except...
Polymorph says its similar to Alter self, except...
Alter Self says you retain your own ability scores, class, level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus and base save bonus.

Polymorph DOES change your Str, Con, and Dex scores. It does not say what these stat changes affect.

My question is If you use Polymorph or Shapechange, do your hit points stay the same? We have a player that seems to think your hit points DO change, but I don't agree. No where in Polymorph or Shapechange does it say that your hit points change. Both spells lead back to Alter Self which says your stats stay the same...

If you Shapechange into a vampire (losing a Con score all together), do you lose your Con bonus to your hit points? Do you become "evil"?

I don't think so, but am unsure.
carnivore
09-12-04, 03:49 PM the best answer is to look here and see what the latest info on polymorph,PAO,alter self is

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg

look under rules on polymorph

hope it helps
tmagann
09-12-04, 04:41 PM As you say, Shapechange doesn't address it, but does refer to Polymorph for what's not addressed. Polymorph doesn't address it, but refers to Alter Self for what's not addressed. Alter Self DOES address it: No change :)

However, the new Con would affect fortitude saves and skill checks related to Con. (Stat bonuses not being part of the BASE save)
Gnarl
09-12-04, 04:48 PM While we're at it, can you shapechange into a werewolf ? Someone once told me you couldn't shapechange into a template creature, I never found the official rule.
tmagann
09-12-04, 05:05 PM From what I can read of the spells, yes you can Shapechange into one, but no you can't Polymorph into one (shapechanger isn't an allowed type for Poly)

Now, Shapechange says 'nearly anything you are familiar with' so familarity is a limit. Also, I wouldn't think you could become a Lycanthrope in human form (that would be a human) or in animal form (that would be an animal), but just hybrid form. But that's a DM judgement, not any rule or guideline I can find n the spell descriptions.
Gnarl
09-12-04, 05:30 PM And how would you work out stats for beast ? Take average human stats and add the template stats to it ?
tmagann
09-12-04, 05:51 PM No, I'd add the template stat adjustments (animal's stat -10) directly to the Character's abilities *IF* the Character was of a race that could contract lycanthropy (humanoid and giant).

If not, well I'd take the average physical stats of the non animal race that the character had encountered with lycanthropy, and add int the critter adjustments. Remember, the character must be familiar with the form. He has to have familiarity with that particular animal species in hybrid form. A human that's familiar with a hill giant/werebear would probably only get the werebear bits (unless he remembered to tell you he was taking the giant bits on his own), but if the character isn't either a giant or a humanoid, they'll have to become the combination of the two species. Then average stats plus animal adjustments would be appropriate.
pjrg
09-12-04, 08:50 PM in polymorph i think the hp changes because the constitution score changes, cant find why this wont be true, what i cant find in the rules is what happens when you shapechange into an undead.
tmagann
09-12-04, 09:18 PM Well, Polymorph refers to Alter Self, then lists the exceptions. Polymorph lists Stats as an exception, but not hits. Alter Self says you keep your hits. Nothing in Poly contradicts this, so you keep your hits. This is open to interpretation, of course, everything is, but that seems to be the consensus.

As to undead, well, they get all the extraordinary and supernatural abilities of undead. Check the undead type listing in glossary of the MM. It's all there. Charisma for concentration checks, partial fortitude immunity, etc
Lawrence
09-12-04, 09:18 PM Okay, I'll make this simple:

WoTC people (and not Customer Service) have stated that, despite what the wording says, hit points DO CHANGE WITH polymorph/shapechange. Just not as people seem to think.

You retain your normal hit points, if you have 100 HP (barring constitution, etc). Then you will always have 100 HP no matter your form.

If your Con is 15 in your regular form, you get a bonus 2 per HD for your form.
If you have a Con of 3 in a new form, you get a penalty of 4 per HD for your form (to a minimum of your HD in HP)

so in regular form you would have 100 + 2(HD)
in the new form, you would have 100 + -4(HD)

so yes, your hit points change, but only on the basis of your constitution bonus.

naturally, a form with no Con (such as undead) simply doesn't give you a bonus or penalty, so it's a straight 100.
wamagni
09-12-04, 09:20 PM I agree with tmagann. You wouldn't gain HP from extra HD or dice sizes, but the con score increase would change your HP. Thus, if you have no con score from changing into an undead, you would lose your fcon bonus to HP.
tmagann
09-12-04, 09:38 PM WoTC people (and not Customer Service) have stated that, despite what the wording says, hit points DO CHANGE WITH polymorph/shapechange. Just not as people seem to think.

Not for nothing, but what people? And where do they say it?

I just checked 3.0, and it specifically says that hits stay the same, even with a change in con, although I AM willing to believe it's changed. But only if someone can actually SHOW me it's changed.

Not that I'm saying you've misquoted someone, but enough people do that I like to see it first hand.

Or, to make it 'simple': Back up your statement with some proof.
edsonaoki
09-12-04, 09:48 PM Originally Posted by tmagann

Not for nothing, but what people? And where do they say it?

I just checked 3.0, and it specifically says that hits stay the same, even with a change in con, although I AM willing to believe it's changed. But only if someone can actually SHOW me it's changed.

Not that I'm saying you've misquoted someone, but enough people do that I like to see it first hand.

Or, to make it 'simple': Back up your statement with some proof.

Here is your proof:

Rules of The Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a):
"The subject retains its own mind, but its body is transformed into a semblance of the assumed form. Unlike previous versions of the D&D game, the subject's hit points change according to his new Constitution score. The subject's Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores revert to normal when resuming its normal form, which may prompt another change in hit points."
tmagann
09-12-04, 10:07 PM Oh, THAT article. You linked me to part 3, and I think, from the context, that the bit you quoted was in part 2.

However, Mr Williams has added a bit to the descriptions that the spell doesn't actually seem to give (all those weapon and armor feats aren't racial bonus feats, nor extraordinary attacks).

He's adding in things the spell doesn't grant as written in the PHB. You offered me the proof I asked for, sure enough, but it's a bit flawed.

Of course, the spell may be changed again in Complete Arcane (like in 3.0 and Tome and Blood) but until then, well, like I said the articles seem to be adding abilities the spell descriptions don't actually give.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
alexp 09-12-04, 03:44 PM	Shapechange says its similar to Polymorph, except... Polymorph says its similar to Alter self, except... Alter Self says you retain your own ability scores, class, level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus and base save bonus. Polymorph DOES change your Str, Con, and Dex scores. It does not say what these stat changes affect. My question is If you use Polymorph or Shapechange, do your hit points stay the same? We have a player that seems to think your hit points DO change, but I don't agree. No where in Polymorph or Shapechange does it say that your hit points change. Both spells lead back to Alter Self which says your stats stay the same... If you Shapechange into a vampire (losing a Con score all together), do you lose your Con bonus to your hit points? Do you become "evil"? I don't think so, but am unsure.
carnivore 09-12-04, 03:49 PM	the best answer is to look here and see what the latest info on polymorph,PAO,alter self is http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg look under rules on polymorph hope it helps
tmagann 09-12-04, 04:41 PM	As you say, Shapechange doesn't address it, but does refer to Polymorph for what's not addressed. Polymorph doesn't address it, but refers to Alter Self for what's not addressed. Alter Self DOES address it: No change :) However, the new Con would affect fortitude saves and skill checks related to Con. (Stat bonuses not being part of the BASE save)
Gnarl 09-12-04, 04:48 PM	While we're at it, can you shapechange into a werewolf ? Someone once told me you couldn't shapechange into a template creature, I never found the official rule.
tmagann 09-12-04, 05:05 PM	From what I can read of the spells, yes you can Shapechange into one, but no you can't Polymorph into one (shapechanger isn't an allowed type for Poly) Now, Shapechange says 'nearly anything you are familiar with' so familarity is a limit. Also, I wouldn't think you could become a Lycanthrope in human form (that would be a human) or in animal form (that would be an animal), but just hybrid form. But that's a DM judgement, not any rule or guideline I can find n the spell descriptions.
Gnarl 09-12-04, 05:30 PM	And how would you work out stats for beast ? Take average human stats and add the template stats to it ?
tmagann 09-12-04, 05:51 PM	No, I'd add the template stat adjustments (animal's stat -10) directly to the Character's abilities IF the Character was of a race that could contract lycanthropy (humanoid and giant). If not, well I'd take the average physical stats of the non animal race that the character had encountered with lycanthropy, and add int the critter adjustments. Remember, the character must be familiar with the form. He has to have familiarity with that particular animal species in hybrid form. A human that's familiar with a hill giant/werebear would probably only get the werebear bits (unless he remembered to tell you he was taking the giant bits on his own), but if the character isn't either a giant or a humanoid, they'll have to become the combination of the two species. Then average stats plus animal adjustments would be appropriate.
pjrg 09-12-04, 08:50 PM	in polymorph i think the hp changes because the constitution score changes, cant find why this wont be true, what i cant find in the rules is what happens when you shapechange into an undead.
tmagann 09-12-04, 09:18 PM	Well, Polymorph refers to Alter Self, then lists the exceptions. Polymorph lists Stats as an exception, but not hits. Alter Self says you keep your hits. Nothing in Poly contradicts this, so you keep your hits. This is open to interpretation, of course, everything is, but that seems to be the consensus. As to undead, well, they get all the extraordinary and supernatural abilities of undead. Check the undead type listing in glossary of the MM. It's all there. Charisma for concentration checks, partial fortitude immunity, etc
Lawrence 09-12-04, 09:18 PM	Okay, I'll make this simple: WoTC people (and not Customer Service) have stated that, despite what the wording says, hit points DO CHANGE WITH polymorph/shapechange. Just not as people seem to think. You retain your normal hit points, if you have 100 HP (barring constitution, etc). Then you will always have 100 HP no matter your form. If your Con is 15 in your regular form, you get a bonus 2 per HD for your form. If you have a Con of 3 in a new form, you get a penalty of 4 per HD for your form (to a minimum of your HD in HP) so in regular form you would have 100 + 2(HD) in the new form, you would have 100 + -4(HD) so yes, your hit points change, but only on the basis of your constitution bonus. naturally, a form with no Con (such as undead) simply doesn't give you a bonus or penalty, so it's a straight 100.
wamagni 09-12-04, 09:20 PM	I agree with tmagann. You wouldn't gain HP from extra HD or dice sizes, but the con score increase would change your HP. Thus, if you have no con score from changing into an undead, you would lose your fcon bonus to HP.
tmagann 09-12-04, 09:38 PM	WoTC people (and not Customer Service) have stated that, despite what the wording says, hit points DO CHANGE WITH polymorph/shapechange. Just not as people seem to think. Not for nothing, but what people? And where do they say it? I just checked 3.0, and it specifically says that hits stay the same, even with a change in con, although I AM willing to believe it's changed. But only if someone can actually SHOW me it's changed. Not that I'm saying you've misquoted someone, but enough people do that I like to see it first hand. Or, to make it 'simple': Back up your statement with some proof.
edsonaoki 09-12-04, 09:48 PM	Originally Posted by tmagann Not for nothing, but what people? And where do they say it? I just checked 3.0, and it specifically says that hits stay the same, even with a change in con, although I AM willing to believe it's changed. But only if someone can actually SHOW me it's changed. Not that I'm saying you've misquoted someone, but enough people do that I like to see it first hand. Or, to make it 'simple': Back up your statement with some proof. Here is your proof: Rules of The Game (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040525a): "The subject retains its own mind, but its body is transformed into a semblance of the assumed form. Unlike previous versions of the D&D game, the subject's hit points change according to his new Constitution score. The subject's Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores revert to normal when resuming its normal form, which may prompt another change in hit points."
tmagann 09-12-04, 10:07 PM	Oh, THAT article. You linked me to part 3, and I think, from the context, that the bit you quoted was in part 2. However, Mr Williams has added a bit to the descriptions that the spell doesn't actually seem to give (all those weapon and armor feats aren't racial bonus feats, nor extraordinary attacks). He's adding in things the spell doesn't grant as written in the PHB. You offered me the proof I asked for, sure enough, but it's a bit flawed. Of course, the spell may be changed again in Complete Arcane (like in 3.0 and Tome and Blood) but until then, well, like I said the articles seem to be adding abilities the spell descriptions don't actually give.