Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pathanus 06-28-04, 11:11 AM	Recently in the FR campaign I'm in, my drow character has come under discrimination and threats (surprise, we are in Cormyr :D ) and the Hat of Disguise I use isn't working (or the DM ignores its effects). I am looking to have the party wizard make a Hat of Alter Self (10800 gp market value, if cast at 3rd level) because it cannot be seen through with "interaction." I will most likely use Elf (for normal disguise, but not Disguise as skill), Avariel (if I ever interact with one for flight), and Troglodite (have been encountered in campaign already, for natural armor). I have read parts of the Alter Self 3.5 post about forms to take, but I am still unclear about benefits of Drow that I might lose due to changing form. I have the Daylight Adaption feat if that matters... Path
Seeker95 06-28-04, 11:23 AM	You would lose all of the "benefits" of being a drow except those directly related to your "known" skills.
Pathanus 06-28-04, 11:56 AM	Bummer, I was hoping to thwart the drow-hating group of rangers and stuff holed up outside Evening Star. Besides taking cross-class ranks in Disguise, is there another magic item that is more effective than a hat of disguise that I could use to conceal my drow-ness? Path
Seeker95 06-28-04, 12:43 PM	You already mentioned it: hat of alter self. Other very effective spells: polymorph shape change reincarnation
Pathanus 06-28-04, 12:56 PM	Ya, but the Hat of Alter self would make me lose all my racial benefits and SR (since they are extraordinary in the MM desc.) right? So I was hoping to get something else that was more skin-tone transmutation or form transmutation that doesn't alter abilities or something. Path
Beamup 06-28-04, 01:07 PM	By the book, disguise self is as good as it gets. Even shapechange, much less alter self, doesn't do the job any better except by not allowing a save. You should check with your DM - are you failing the Disguise checks (the opposed Disguise vs. Spot rolls), or are they making their saves on interaction? Or is he just flat-out ignoring your Disguise attempts? If you're failing the checks - there's little you can do other than take ranks in Disguise. Remember (and remind the DM) that just seeing you doesn't give them a roll, they have to be paying specific attention to you. If they're making their saves - remind the DM that they have to study you carefully or interact with you (i.e. touch) to get a save at all. If he's enforcing this properly, there is little you can do to improve the situation. (Though why these people would be devoting that sort of attention to you specifically needs to be explained.) If the DM is ignoring your Disguise attempts - tell him to just write down his story and you'll simply read it, since clearly he's not going to let you have any influence on what happens.
meabolex 06-28-04, 01:07 PM	Originally posted by Pathanus Recently in the FR campaign I'm in, my drow character has come under discrimination and threats (surprise, we are in Cormyr :D ) and the Hat of Disguise I use isn't working (or the DM ignores its effects). No disguise vs. spot checks? Have the DM read over the description of the disguise skill. In many cases the hat of disguise prevents even a check at all. You would suffer a -2 penalty for impersonating a race other than drow. But "if you come to the attention of people who are suspicious," they usually take 10 on the spot check. That means, on average, you get an 18 modifier on the disguise check untrained, without a charisma modifier, with the hat of disguise, and as a non-drow race. Someone would have to have 8 ranks in spot to be able to see through it on average. This means that they're at least a level 5 character. Just how many level 5 characters with 8 ranks in spot are there? (:
Pathanus 06-28-04, 01:27 PM	I have a 16 Charisma (+3) and a Luck Stone (+1) and then +10 from the Hat of Disguise, for a +14 total (and if I use "charges" from a Disguise Kit its +16 total), but I have a -2 for trying a different race, so normal people in the inn and tavern have a very tough time seeing through the disguise, but a 9th or so level ranger/fighter may be able to easily spot through it. I think I will devise a plan to subdue and capture the drow-haters (Silky Johnson is their leader, hehe, jk) and have the Paladin Diplomacy them to like drow (he has like a +17 check or something). BTW my character is a Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Cleric 1/Barbarian 2/Champion of Gwynharwyf 3 (2k exp until 4th) and has bought off both Level Adjustments using the UA rules. Would it be a good idea to add a +10 competance bonus to Disguise to the Hat of Disguise, and make it only work for Good-aligned characters? (10^2*100*1.5*.7) or [skill bonus squared]*[100]*[Second affinity to existing slot]*[1-30% alignment restriction: good] for 10800 gp? Path
Edward 06-28-04, 07:52 PM	I always considered interaction to mean they had to not only talk to you but touch you on an aria that had undergone physical change. Drow to elf can be worked so nobody ever gets a save. As to the cheque I would probably give the minor details only bonus because you don’t have to change anything other than colour(probably only +2) but the –2 for different race (you need to disguise the attitudes of a drow as well as the physical differences). I also apply a familiarity penalty to the viewers spot cheque of –5 if you are impersonating somebody they have never met or herd anything about (ie somebody you made up rather than impersonating someone) and they don’t know you. It is almost imposable to notice somebody is disguised when you combine all these factors. Edward
Simetrical 06-28-04, 08:31 PM	Creatures only get a saving throw against the hat of disguise's change self effect if they study it closely (which they'll normally only do if they become suspicious of you somehow, which isn't likely if you keep your head down and don't talk with suspicious people). If there's some actual physical characteristic that the spell changes, and something occurs that proves that the characteristic is an illusion (such as patting someone on the head and having your hand go down a further four inches because they changed their height), the illusion is automatically disbelieved. However, since there is no apparent change whatsoever to your audible or tactile appearance, there is no possibility for "interaction" (visual contact is clearly not "interaction," because otherwise "studying it carefully" would be a redundant proviso). I always considered interaction to mean they had to not only talk to you but touch you on an aria that had undergone physical change. Drow to elf can be worked so nobody ever gets a save. ~Edward This is not what the PHB says. There is no "interaction" with a glamer changing a drow to an elf, true, but close scrutiny will still allow a check.
Thomar_of_Uointer 06-28-04, 09:13 PM	If you're a drow, you can just use disguise self and fake being an elf. Physically, there's hardly any difference to "interact" with.
Pathanus 06-28-04, 10:17 PM	I think its just the main (or one of the main) groupies in this anti-drow ring has a very good Spot check. DM clued me in Out of Campaign that the guy has Drow as his first favored enemy (so probly +3 there), Altertness feat, and skill ranks (including any wisdom modifier). Any my Charisma and Luckstone only gets me a +4, so I might try to get some competence bonus onto my Hat o' Disguise, but I'm not sure if my character should invest hard earned wealth into something that might not benefit too much. I am thinking about investing in a Ghosttouch enhancement on my Alch. Silver Scimitar, or saving to enchant an Adamantine Scimitar that I have already. Any suggestions for my character (see recent post) for items to look for (I usually play a heavy armor cleric) ? Str 16 (18 w/ item) Dex 18 Con 14 Wis 14 Int 13 Cha 16 Mainly use Shocking Scimitar +1 and Heavy Steel Shield +1 (MW Mighty Comp Longbow (+3) Precise (Arms and Equip) +1) Thanks for any advice, Path
Hypersmurf 06-28-04, 10:42 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 You would lose all of the "benefits" of being a drow except those directly related to your "known" skills. There's a weird contradiction there. When you Alter Self, you retain Spell-Like Abilities, and lose Extraordinary qualities. Drow have Spell-Like Abilities listed as an Extraordinary quality. -Hyp.
Seeker95 06-29-04, 08:55 AM	Originally posted by Hypersmurf When you Alter Self, you retain Spell-Like Abilities, and lose Extraordinary qualities. Drow have Spell-Like Abilities listed as an Extraordinary quality.It is not a contradiction. It is an appliction of two elements of the rules. If we use the words "in general" at the beginning of every rule, we can easily avoid the rules-lawyer hair-pulling that seems to get some folks into a rage. Extraordinary Qualities is a broad category. Spell-like abilities is a broad category. In general, I apply the most restrictive interpretation. You keep spell-like abilities unless they are listed as an extraordinary quality. I will reverse this interpretation if it turns out that all spell-like abilities are extraordinary qualities.
smrtgmp 06-29-04, 09:04 AM	Originally posted by Edward I always considered interaction to mean they had to not only talk to you but touch you on an aria that had undergone physical change. Drow to elf can be worked so nobody ever gets a save. I agree with this assesment. Since you would be changing nothing but the color of your skin, I dont think a casual observer should get a chance to pierce the disguise. If they talked to you, and were familiar with drow and their speech patterns, than that would be a different story, as they might be able to pick up on out of place (for a surface elf) inflections in the way you talk.
meabolex 06-29-04, 09:26 AM	Edit: whoops, disguise self isn't will (disbelief) (-; With disguise self, here's how I do the disbelief save in mechanical terms. Every successful melee attack against the creature OR any successful melee attack that the creature makes against a target allows the attacker or target a save. This counts (to me) as interaction with the glamer. Also, any situation where you are touching the creature or holding on to the creature grants a saving throw. Note: with a will (disbelief) spell, careful study usually provides a save. Any creature that spends one full round action observing the creature from 5 ft. (much like a search check) gains a saving throw with will (disbelief) spells. This counts (to me) as careful study. But this spell ISN'T will (disbelief). So careful study will not help you. Only interaction can help you with this spell (see above).
Seeker95 06-29-04, 03:47 PM	Instead of alter self, go with prestidigitation, and change your skin color from black to tan. Then there is nothing to "detect" besides the possible charge of "fake baking".
meabolex 06-29-04, 03:48 PM	Well, there's always that bright white drow hair \: PURPLE HAIR DYE!!! (:
Seeker95 06-29-04, 04:13 PM	Originally posted by meabolex Well, there's always that bright white drow hairAlthough I chuckled at the joke, any elf can have white hair. :D
Simetrical 06-29-04, 07:10 PM	But that would probably lead to some suspicion, which would make careful study more likely.
Seeker95 06-29-04, 07:30 PM	Originally posted by Simetrical But that would probably lead to some suspicion, which would make careful study more likely. If your DM makes this ruling, ask him to explain why every elf with white hair is viewed as suspicious. Unless the drow have frequently ventured to the surface, enduring the penalizing rays of the sun, used magic to change their skin color, and been caught, white hair is not going to be all that weird.
meabolex 06-30-04, 08:35 AM	Originally posted by Simetrical But that would probably lead to some suspicion, which would make careful study more likely. But careful study won't help with disguise self. It's not Will (Disbelief). The spell states that only interaction can cause a will save. Will (Disbelief) says that careful study or interaction can cause a will save.
Simetrical 06-30-04, 09:41 AM	If your DM makes this ruling, ask him to explain why every elf with white hair is viewed as suspicious. ~Seeker95 I was assuming that white-haired, non-drow elves are quite rare. While white hair wouldn't indicate a drow for sure, it would probably be cause for suspicion, since most white-haired elves are drow. YMMV. But careful study won't help with disguise self. It's not Will (Disbelief). The spell states that only interaction can cause a will save. Will (Disbelief) says that careful study or interaction can cause a will save. ~meabolex A cursory search showed that few illusions, if any, specifically mention that careful study will allow a save. You may be right, but what spells do specifically mention careful study?
meabolex 06-30-04, 09:50 AM	Originally posted by Simetrical A cursory search showed that few illusions, if any, specifically mention that careful study will allow a save. You may be right, but what spells do specifically mention careful study? Any spell with the saving throw of "Will (Disbelief)" Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion. A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline. A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus. HOWEVER, unlike most illusion spells, disguise self doesn't have a will (disbelief) indicator in its description. I equate observation with careful study, as the above text makes a distinction between "study it carefully" and "interact with it." No amount of observation will give you a saving throw on disguise self. That's reason for the disguise skill bonus. If you see through the disguise (using the disguise skill rules), then you know something's up anyway.
CaoSlayer 06-30-04, 09:57 AM	there is a pretty cheap trick for solving that "cosmetic" trouble. in one of the faerun books you can find the minor diguise cantrip, you can use it for changing your skin and hair color and so to look like a normal elf. :D and of course doing a woundrous item with that effect it is pretty cheap.