alter self quandry, please help [Archive] - Wizards Community

alter self quandry, please help [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Raede
12-28-04, 11:05 PM ok, so ive got my warforged artificer, and to protect his identity in a hostile world he created a mask that lets him cast alter self at will.

so here's my question: since he (Domo by name) is both a construct and a humanoid, he can turn into either, right? assuming yes, (which is what i think), then when he changes into a construct does Domo become fully a construct? (immunities, weaknesses and all that)
Seeker95
12-29-04, 08:52 AM If he changes type and sub-type, he changes completely.

Now, a hard-nosed DM would say he can only become creatures of his same type. Forget subtype. So, is the warforged a construct, a humanoid, or a construct humanoid?

If he is a construct, he can only become constructs... not humanoids.
If he is a humanoid, he can only become humanoid... not constructs.
If he is a "construct humanoid" he can only become construct humanoids!

I think the warforged have enough benefits. I would be tempted to rule they have found an inherent limitation through the application of alter self: there is no other creature of their type.
The Mailman
12-29-04, 11:17 AM My understanding of alter self was that when you changed shape, you only got the gross physcial qualities of the new form: size, claws, bite, movement forms, racial skill bonuses, etc. I assume that an inherent limitation of the spell is that you can't gain new attributes by changing your type--since you can't change your type with this spell. I don't recall what type a Warforged is, but whether it has the attributes of either a humanoid or a construct, it should only be able to change into creatures of whichever type it had the attributes of.

I guess that's a long way of saying, IMHO, you shouldn't be able to use this spell to get the attributes of a type you don't already possess.
Seeker95
12-29-04, 12:39 PM I guess that's a long way of saying, IMHO, you shouldn't be able to use this spell to get the attributes of a type you don't already possess.You are quite right. However, if the warforged is a "construct" and it uses alter self to become another construct (but not a warforged) it will gain *all* the traits of constructs.

The big question is not what happens if a warforged becomes a construct, but rather:
Can a warforged use alter self to become another construct in the first palce?
Iku Rex
12-29-04, 01:08 PM ok, so ive got my warforged artificer, and to protect his identity in a hostile world he created a mask that lets him cast alter self at will.Bad move. You should have gone with a Hat of Disguise instead.

so here's my question: since he (Domo by name) is both a construct and a humanoid, he can turn into either, right? assuming yes, (which is what i think), then when he changes into a construct does Domo become fully a construct? (immunities, weaknesses and all that) Warforged have the construct type (and the "living construct" subtype). They do not have the humanoid type. Thus, they can change into constructs, but not humanoids, with alter self, as per the spell description. The spell description also specifies that your type and subtype remain the same, so you don't gain or loose any type-based abilities in the new form.
toomre
12-29-04, 02:52 PM However, if the warforged is a "construct" and it uses alter self to become another construct (but not a warforged) it will gain *all* the traits of constructs.When using alter self you can become anything of the same type, but not necessarily the same subtype as yourself. So a warforged: a Construct (Living Construct) could become just a plain Construct like a homunculous, however alter self specifically states that Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form, so the living construct subtype's traits are not lost via alter self. What you said does however apply to the polymorph spell since with that one you gain the type and subtype of the new form along with the associated racial traits.
Seeker95
12-29-04, 04:23 PM I stand corrected, and appreciate the clarification. My answer would have been much easier (and probably more accurate) if the original poster had correctly indicated the type and subtype of a warforged. I don't have Eberron.
Raede
12-29-04, 06:13 PM sorry, i assumed familiarity with the books.

thank you all for your assistance, i had also posted this question in the eberron forums and the anwers seem to be thus:

since a warforged is a living construct that means he is essentially a subtype of construct. So, with alter self i can become any kind of construct with 5HD or lower and within one size category. no humanoids. so...not what i originally planned to use it for, but it still has great combat applications. havent checked the MM3 yet but ive checked the rest and out of the MM2 i can become a maug, gaining 7 natural armor, a large size, and a slam for 1d8 + 1.5 x str. and if i just want to beat things and dont need my hands i can do automaton, gaining 11 natural armor and a slam for 2d8 + str x 1.5.

hooray for an artificer who can deal more damage than a wizard via wands and can tank better than a fighter. (im already decked out in adamantine.)

now to either upgrade to polymorph or buy a damn hat of disguise.
smrtgmp
12-29-04, 06:41 PM I don't have Eberron.You should check it out. I know you're a Greyhawk guy, but Eberron is a nice change of pace. I thought I'd hate it, but its freakin' awesome. There is a lot of cool stuff, but corrupt clerics are icicng on the cake, IMO. Now I might actually play one.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Raede 12-28-04, 11:05 PM	ok, so ive got my warforged artificer, and to protect his identity in a hostile world he created a mask that lets him cast alter self at will. so here's my question: since he (Domo by name) is both a construct and a humanoid, he can turn into either, right? assuming yes, (which is what i think), then when he changes into a construct does Domo become fully a construct? (immunities, weaknesses and all that)
Seeker95 12-29-04, 08:52 AM	If he changes type and sub-type, he changes completely. Now, a hard-nosed DM would say he can only become creatures of his same type. Forget subtype. So, is the warforged a construct, a humanoid, or a construct humanoid? If he is a construct, he can only become constructs... not humanoids. If he is a humanoid, he can only become humanoid... not constructs. If he is a "construct humanoid" he can only become construct humanoids! I think the warforged have enough benefits. I would be tempted to rule they have found an inherent limitation through the application of alter self: there is no other creature of their type.
The Mailman 12-29-04, 11:17 AM	My understanding of alter self was that when you changed shape, you only got the gross physcial qualities of the new form: size, claws, bite, movement forms, racial skill bonuses, etc. I assume that an inherent limitation of the spell is that you can't gain new attributes by changing your type--since you can't change your type with this spell. I don't recall what type a Warforged is, but whether it has the attributes of either a humanoid or a construct, it should only be able to change into creatures of whichever type it had the attributes of. I guess that's a long way of saying, IMHO, you shouldn't be able to use this spell to get the attributes of a type you don't already possess.
Seeker95 12-29-04, 12:39 PM	I guess that's a long way of saying, IMHO, you shouldn't be able to use this spell to get the attributes of a type you don't already possess.You are quite right. However, if the warforged is a "construct" and it uses alter self to become another construct (but not a warforged) it will gain all the traits of constructs. The big question is not what happens if a warforged becomes a construct, but rather: Can a warforged use alter self to become another construct in the first palce?
Iku Rex 12-29-04, 01:08 PM	ok, so ive got my warforged artificer, and to protect his identity in a hostile world he created a mask that lets him cast alter self at will.Bad move. You should have gone with a Hat of Disguise instead. so here's my question: since he (Domo by name) is both a construct and a humanoid, he can turn into either, right? assuming yes, (which is what i think), then when he changes into a construct does Domo become fully a construct? (immunities, weaknesses and all that) Warforged have the construct type (and the "living construct" subtype). They do not have the humanoid type. Thus, they can change into constructs, but not humanoids, with alter self, as per the spell description. The spell description also specifies that your type and subtype remain the same, so you don't gain or loose any type-based abilities in the new form.
toomre 12-29-04, 02:52 PM	However, if the warforged is a "construct" and it uses alter self to become another construct (but not a warforged) it will gain all the traits of constructs.When using alter self you can become anything of the same type, but not necessarily the same subtype as yourself. So a warforged: a Construct (Living Construct) could become just a plain Construct like a homunculous, however alter self specifically states that Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form, so the living construct subtype's traits are not lost via alter self. What you said does however apply to the polymorph spell since with that one you gain the type and subtype of the new form along with the associated racial traits.
Seeker95 12-29-04, 04:23 PM	I stand corrected, and appreciate the clarification. My answer would have been much easier (and probably more accurate) if the original poster had correctly indicated the type and subtype of a warforged. I don't have Eberron.
Raede 12-29-04, 06:13 PM	sorry, i assumed familiarity with the books. thank you all for your assistance, i had also posted this question in the eberron forums and the anwers seem to be thus: since a warforged is a living construct that means he is essentially a subtype of construct. So, with alter self i can become any kind of construct with 5HD or lower and within one size category. no humanoids. so...not what i originally planned to use it for, but it still has great combat applications. havent checked the MM3 yet but ive checked the rest and out of the MM2 i can become a maug, gaining 7 natural armor, a large size, and a slam for 1d8 + 1.5 x str. and if i just want to beat things and dont need my hands i can do automaton, gaining 11 natural armor and a slam for 2d8 + str x 1.5. hooray for an artificer who can deal more damage than a wizard via wands and can tank better than a fighter. (im already decked out in adamantine.) now to either upgrade to polymorph or buy a damn hat of disguise.
smrtgmp 12-29-04, 06:41 PM	I don't have Eberron.You should check it out. I know you're a Greyhawk guy, but Eberron is a nice change of pace. I thought I'd hate it, but its freakin' awesome. There is a lot of cool stuff, but corrupt clerics are icicng on the cake, IMO. Now I might actually play one.