Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Everach 03-10-04, 09:16 AM	I'm having some trouble with Alter Self. I'll present select quotes to keep this post short, please view the entire spell if you have any questions. From the SRD: " You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. " ie, a humanoid can transform himself into any 5HD or less humanoid of small, medium or large size. Also from the SRD: " ...mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement)... " ie, you gain more than this, but my confusion has to do with movement. The monster manual lists the following as humanoids, MM pg 4 " Bugbear, Dwarf, Elf, Gthyanki, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Hobgoblin, Kobold, Lizardfolk, Locathah, Merfolk, Orc, Troglodyte " Two of these swim, none of them move faster than a human, none of them burrow, none of the climb and none of them fly. Am I missing something here? The spell specifically allows you to gain fly, climb and burrow speeds, but does not allow you to assume a form that includes any of those features. Could someone please point out how I can use this spell to climb, burrow or fly? Please do not respond with non-MM humanoids. This spell was written with MM, DMG and PHB in mind. We should be able to figure this out without using additional sources.
d_nychus 03-10-04, 09:25 AM	Try thinking if the caster was, say, an abberation, and turned into a choker, or the caster was a azer, and turned into an air elemental, or if the caster was a magical beast and turned into a ankheg. The PHB is mostly set up for humanoids, but not entirely restricted to it. Take comfort in finding one of the few spells that actually takes that into account. Edit: just realized a couple of my examples had too many HD.
Vorpal Warhammer 03-10-04, 09:34 AM	I don't like the fact that it doesn't give you subtypes. It seems strange that Alter Self'ing into an Aquatic Elf doesn't give you the aquatic subtype, and therefore doesn't let you breathe water. Water Breathing is a level higher, but has a much longer duration and can be split with and/or cast on other people. :mad:
d_nychus 03-10-04, 09:42 AM	Hmm, that's an oversight, but I understand why they don't want to deal with subtypes. It would get messy for game play.
ehrin 03-10-04, 11:56 AM	I never thought to limit "humanoid" to the list on page 4 of the MM. To me, a Humanoid is any bipedal creature with roughly human features, ie, a head atop the shoulders, two arms, two legs, a torso in-between, or some creature having the preponderance of those features: For instance, I think a mermaid is humanoid (obviously based on human form, with a fish tail rather than legs). A Centaur is barely humanoid IMO, but a Satyr is VERY humanoid. Fairies, sylphs, nymphs, dryads, all humanoid by virtue of their appearance. Nagas, sphynxes, etc. are not likely to be called humanoid in my worlds. So, one way to get those "extra" abilities is to conclude that the list on page 4 was inclusive, not exclusive, and lists creatures that are definately humanoid, but not ALL creatures that are humanoid.
Everach 03-10-04, 12:27 PM	Originally posted by ehrin So, one way to get those "extra" abilities is to conclude that the list on page 4 was inclusive, not exclusive, and lists creatures that are definately humanoid, but not ALL creatures that are humanoid. The spell specifically refers to the humanoid type. Allowing monstrous humanoids (centaur) and fey (satyr) is outside the scope of the spell. I'm trying to figure out how to best use this spell without house rules using only core sourcebooks. P.S. I'm tempted to house rule monstrous humanoids for my own campaign, but wanted some kind of official concensus first.
sorclight 03-10-04, 03:52 PM	We've stuck with strictly humanoid in our game play. You forgot the Avariel or winged elves, found in Races of Faerun, as humanoids that would actually allow you to fly, if you knew about these creatures and had seen them well enough to be able to alter into one of them. Anyways, I consider the spell to mainly be a disguise spell that can, in some situations, give you special abilities, like the Dwarven ability to resist trip attacks or the elves bonus to spot and listen etc. Remember also that it gives you a huge bonus to your disguise check and that even if someone touches you and you are an orc, altered into a halfling, they wouldn't notice anything amiss, whereas they would definitely notice you weren't as small as you look were you only using the 1st lvl disguise self spell. If you expand it to include monstrous humanoids as an option for a normal humanoid, you will make the spell much to powerful imo....
Shadowfax7 03-11-04, 03:06 PM	Originally posted by Vorpal Warhammer I don't like the fact that it doesn't give you subtypes. It seems strange that Alter Self'ing into an Aquatic Elf doesn't give you the aquatic subtype, and therefore doesn't let you breathe water. Water Breathing is a level higher, but has a much longer duration and can be split with and/or cast on other people. :mad: But you can Alter Self into a Locatah which breathes water. :) However, IMO it is balanced to allow the Aquatic Elf subtype form to be taken with Alter Self.
Vorpal Warhammer 03-11-04, 03:41 PM	Originally posted by Shadowfax7 But you can Alter Self into a Locatah which breathes water. :) However, IMO it is balanced to allow the Aquatic Elf subtype form to be taken with Alter Self. Nope. Locathah breathe water because they have the (aquatic) subtype. Alter Self doesn't change your subtype, so it doesn't give you the ability to breathe water. It sucks. :mad:
Shadowfax7 03-11-04, 04:07 PM	Originally posted by Vorpal Warhammer Nope. Locathah breathe water because they have the (aquatic) subtype. Alter Self doesn't change your subtype, so it doesn't give you the ability to breathe water. It sucks. :mad: Uhmmm.....true. My mistake. In that case why would anyone Alter Self into a Locatah. I mean who wants to be cold, clammy and wet, but NOT be able to breathe water :rolleyes:
d_nychus 03-11-04, 04:09 PM	Disguise?
Bramir 03-11-04, 05:45 PM	Keep in mind that alter self is no longer an illusion, so it cannot be seen through by things such as true seeing. That said, one of the main purposes of this spell, is, I think, to disguise yourself as something other than a spellcaster. A goblin, with a little shortbow, for example is not nearly as threatening to intelligent enemies as a human or elf in wizards robes.
sorclight 03-11-04, 05:53 PM	Bramir, True Seeing explicitly says that it sees "polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things" which means that it DOES see the true from of an alter self spell recipient, however, if alter self shouldn't be required to combat a true seeing spell... If you are facing opponents that can use the true-seeing spell, you should be worried about more things than whether or not they know what kind of creature you are.
Bramir 03-11-04, 06:03 PM	Originally posted by sorclight Bramir, True Seeing explicitly says that it sees "polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things" which means that it DOES see the true from of an alter self spell recipient, however, if alter self shouldn't be required to combat a true seeing spell... If you are facing opponents that can use the true-seeing spell, you should be worried about more things than whether or not they know what kind of creature you are. My bad. You are correct. However, at most, even in a powerful group of adversaries, there may be one person with true seeing. While your disguise probably will not hold up very long, a few rounds without the enemy concentrating attacks on your wizard character is a huge advantage. The duration is 1 minute/level, so it can be cast before combat. It is a decent defensive spell, as rather than pointing you out for the bad guys (mirror image), or being susceptible to a low level divination (invisibility), it can only be seen through by a 5th or 6th level spell.
Bramir 03-11-04, 06:24 PM	Also, true seeing is only effective out to 120 ft., and a wizard can certainly be effective from greater than that range. See invisibility is effective as far as the user can see...
The Voice of Sauron 03-11-04, 11:50 PM	Originally posted by Vorpal Warhammer Nope. Locathah breathe water because they have the (aquatic) subtype. Alter Self doesn't change your subtype, so it doesn't give you the ability to breathe water. It sucks. :mad: As I understand the spell description, though, you CAN give yourself gills provided you don't do too much else. Though even that can be potentially lifesaving if your DM is fond of something like this: DM: "As you walk into the room, iron sheets drop through all the doorways, trapping you inside." PC Fighter: "I'm going to try and force one open," DM: "As you run to one of the doors, the room begins filling with water..."
beaver1024 03-12-04, 12:46 AM	Originally posted by The Voice of Sauron As I understand the spell description, though, you CAN give yourself gills provided you don't do too much else. Though even that can be potentially lifesaving if your DM is fond of something like this: DM: "As you walk into the room, iron sheets drop through all the doorways, trapping you inside." PC Fighter: "I'm going to try and force one open," DM: "As you run to one of the doors, the room begins filling with water..." This thread is referring to 3.5 Alter Self which is significantly different (read: useless) from the 3.0 Alter Self.