Alter Self [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Alter Self [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Maliseth Tyranis
12-05-07, 04:21 PM Can this be used to look like a specific person with the +10 disguise bonus?
Seeker95
12-05-07, 04:57 PM In my game, yes*. Just as any other disguise can. But looking like a specific person is still a very specific DC. Alter self just lets you take an additional +10 to the effort.

*You will probably find folks who disagree. But I find it foolish to rule that a magical disguise cannot accomplish what plain old skill ranks in disguise can.
mvincent
12-05-07, 06:25 PM Can this be used to look like a specific person with the +10 disguise bonus?Yes. It provides a bonus to your disguise skill, and the disguise skill can definitely be use to impersonate someone.
ArcTan
12-05-07, 06:37 PM Yes. It lets you modify your appearance in the new form to anything within the "normal range" for that species. I would say that it *wouldn't* let you look like a particularly abnormal member of the species, though. (Obvious example -- anyone who's special enough to have a template, like an animal so big and ferocious it counts as Dire.)
Seeker95
12-05-07, 07:03 PM I would say that it *wouldn't* let you look like a particularly abnormal member of the species, though.Where do you draw the line?
A human with a hunchback?
A human with a hand with six fingers?
Two different colored eyes?
A missing hand?
A missing leg?
A leper?

At what point is someone particularly abnormal?

For my game, I would rule that if there is a legitimate target form (i.e., same type) and that person really does possess a specific feature, you can mimic that feature with alter self. Whether you succeed depends on the DC of attempting to mimic a specific target. Alter self gives you the +10.

Your Dire example would require that the caster be of the [animal] type in the first place. If so, then I don't think *looking like* [dire] targets is outside the realm of possibilities. From a stats perspective, it will still be a normal statted specimen of the creature.
ArcTan
12-05-07, 08:25 PM Like I said before, anything significant enough to impose a mechanical difference is "abnormal", since the stat block defines what is normal. (Normal Human stats allow a Human to wield two weapons in two hands, taking appropriate penalties unless they have the right feats. A Human who lacks the ability to wield a weapon in his left hand because it's been chopped off is therefore abnormal.)
mathew99
12-05-07, 08:26 PM you can't turn into anything with a template
that's one of the basic lines you'd draw it at, the rest would be up do your DM's descretion with your disguise chek.
you could always buy materials to mold a sixth finger with.
Pitiless_Interfector
12-05-07, 08:37 PM Where do you draw the line?
A human with a hunchback?
A human with a hand with six fingers?
Two different colored eyes?
A missing hand?
A missing leg?
A leper?

At what point is someone particularly abnormal?

http://www.boobpedia.com/butler/images/3/37/Chelseacharms1.jpg
Seeker95
12-05-07, 09:41 PM A Human who lacks the ability to wield a weapon in his left hand because it's been chopped off is therefore abnormal.We find yet another reason for each of us to be glad the other is not our Dungeon Master. You would find me too permissive in areas it does not affect ongoing game balance, and I would find you to be a straight-jacket in areas where such strict rulings seem unnecessary.
Maliseth Tyranis
12-06-07, 09:59 AM Ok, if you can use it to look like a specific person and alter self is a transmutation spell, would the Church Inquisitors ability to see through Illusion grant him a will save or would he just use the +4 bonus on spot to see through Disguises?
Tordak
12-06-07, 10:53 AM Alter self is not an illusion, disguise self is (it's a glamer). Seeing through illusion doesn't help (although true seeing would), but could grant a bonus to see through disguise (opposing spot to the disguise check).
HawkTheOne-Handed
12-06-07, 03:53 PM Does this change your voice as well? Imagine you are a female caster and turn into Arnold Schwarzennegar. Are you Arnie with a girly voice or Arnold with a male sounding voice (if you can't mimic accents, you are bonked)?
mvincent
12-06-07, 03:59 PM Does this change your voice as well? It appears so:
"If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components"

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maliseth Tyranis 12-05-07, 04:21 PM	Can this be used to look like a specific person with the +10 disguise bonus?
Seeker95 12-05-07, 04:57 PM	In my game, yes. Just as any other disguise can. But looking like a specific person is still a very specific DC. Alter self just lets you take an additional +10 to the effort. You will probably find folks who disagree. But I find it foolish to rule that a magical disguise cannot accomplish what plain old skill ranks in disguise can.
mvincent 12-05-07, 06:25 PM	Can this be used to look like a specific person with the +10 disguise bonus?Yes. It provides a bonus to your disguise skill, and the disguise skill can definitely be use to impersonate someone.
ArcTan 12-05-07, 06:37 PM	Yes. It lets you modify your appearance in the new form to anything within the "normal range" for that species. I would say that it wouldn't let you look like a particularly abnormal member of the species, though. (Obvious example -- anyone who's special enough to have a template, like an animal so big and ferocious it counts as Dire.)
Seeker95 12-05-07, 07:03 PM	I would say that it wouldn't let you look like a particularly abnormal member of the species, though.Where do you draw the line? A human with a hunchback? A human with a hand with six fingers? Two different colored eyes? A missing hand? A missing leg? A leper? At what point is someone particularly abnormal? For my game, I would rule that if there is a legitimate target form (i.e., same type) and that person really does possess a specific feature, you can mimic that feature with alter self. Whether you succeed depends on the DC of attempting to mimic a specific target. Alter self gives you the +10. Your Dire example would require that the caster be of the [animal] type in the first place. If so, then I don't think looking like [dire] targets is outside the realm of possibilities. From a stats perspective, it will still be a normal statted specimen of the creature.
ArcTan 12-05-07, 08:25 PM	Like I said before, anything significant enough to impose a mechanical difference is "abnormal", since the stat block defines what is normal. (Normal Human stats allow a Human to wield two weapons in two hands, taking appropriate penalties unless they have the right feats. A Human who lacks the ability to wield a weapon in his left hand because it's been chopped off is therefore abnormal.)
mathew99 12-05-07, 08:26 PM	you can't turn into anything with a template that's one of the basic lines you'd draw it at, the rest would be up do your DM's descretion with your disguise chek. you could always buy materials to mold a sixth finger with.
Pitiless_Interfector 12-05-07, 08:37 PM	Where do you draw the line? A human with a hunchback? A human with a hand with six fingers? Two different colored eyes? A missing hand? A missing leg? A leper? At what point is someone particularly abnormal? http://www.boobpedia.com/butler/images/3/37/Chelseacharms1.jpg
Seeker95 12-05-07, 09:41 PM	A Human who lacks the ability to wield a weapon in his left hand because it's been chopped off is therefore abnormal.We find yet another reason for each of us to be glad the other is not our Dungeon Master. You would find me too permissive in areas it does not affect ongoing game balance, and I would find you to be a straight-jacket in areas where such strict rulings seem unnecessary.
Maliseth Tyranis 12-06-07, 09:59 AM	Ok, if you can use it to look like a specific person and alter self is a transmutation spell, would the Church Inquisitors ability to see through Illusion grant him a will save or would he just use the +4 bonus on spot to see through Disguises?
Tordak 12-06-07, 10:53 AM	Alter self is not an illusion, disguise self is (it's a glamer). Seeing through illusion doesn't help (although true seeing would), but could grant a bonus to see through disguise (opposing spot to the disguise check).
HawkTheOne-Handed 12-06-07, 03:53 PM	Does this change your voice as well? Imagine you are a female caster and turn into Arnold Schwarzennegar. Are you Arnie with a girly voice or Arnold with a male sounding voice (if you can't mimic accents, you are bonked)?
mvincent 12-06-07, 03:59 PM	Does this change your voice as well? It appears so: "If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components"