Alter Self/Polymorph - Undead/Construct? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alter Self/Polymorph - Undead/Construct? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lafarallin
06-21-07, 12:37 PM Having some serious issues here with alter self spell and polymorph line as a warforged character.

Having a type: construct and subtype: living construct...not sure exactly how this would all work. The same could be said for an undead character.

I've heard a lot of views on how this would work but I'd like to hear some non-house rules if there are any. If there aren't I guess just knowing there aren't is good enough.

The big argument regarding alter self (as a construct ) is could you become an effigy creature?

The main issue with polymorph is it states you turn a willing subject into another living creature. This kind of assumes you are a living creature to begin with. It then states the creature you become can be the same type you are. This kind of contradicts itself in the example of construct and/or undead.

Just curious how others view this and if there are official rulings concerning such situations.
runestar
06-21-07, 12:52 PM The main issue with polymorph is it states you turn a willing subject into another living creature. This kind of assumes you are a living creature to begin with. It then states the creature you become can be the same type you are. This kind of contradicts itself in the example of construct and/or undead.

Just assume they are not mutually exclusive. Sorta like drawing 2 circles overlapping each other, and the common area shared is what you can work with.

Yes, you can turn into another creature of the same type as you, so long as that choice does not contradict the 1st one (must be living). So constructs and undead are not valid choices as they are not living (which by definition, must have a con score).:)
Lafarallin
06-21-07, 02:22 PM Just assume they are not mutually exclusive. Sorta like drawing 2 circles overlapping each other, and the common area shared is what you can work with.

Yes, you can turn into another creature of the same type as you, so long as that choice does not contradict the 1st one (must be living). So constructs and undead are not valid choices as they are not living (which by definition, must have a con score).:)

So basically a warforged wizard could only use alter self to assume the form of the handful of living constructs out there. That is it...making this spell pretty worthless for them?

Not saying that as contradictory, just asking for an exact clarification. Alter self actually says nothing about (living creature), so technically you could take the form of a construct with 5 HD or less. This is then pointed to as the basis for polymorph, which however states turns one willing creature into another living creature (which assumes the subject was living to begin with).

So alter self allows a warforged to become an Animated Table for example (both constructs). However, polymorph clearly says willing subject into another living creature.

Basically is this just a problem introduced by unforeseen warforged race? If so is it house rule time? I really see the issue as "alter self" is the basis for the polymorph line of spells; however, due to wording (which was done before warforged ever existed) they add a restriction to "polymorph" which "alter self" doesn't even have. This seems like more of a new creation not being planned for in a spell definition....or am I completely off base here?
ArcTan
06-21-07, 11:32 PM Having some serious issues here with alter self spell and polymorph line as a warforged character.

Having a type: construct and subtype: living construct...not sure exactly how this would all work. The same could be said for an undead character.

I've heard a lot of views on how this would work but I'd like to hear some non-house rules if there are any. If there aren't I guess just knowing there aren't is good enough.

The big argument regarding alter self (as a construct ) is could you become an effigy creature?

Actually, now that I look back on it, *no*, you can't. Effigy is a template. Alter self never lets you take a form with a template.

The main issue with polymorph is it states you turn a willing subject into another living creature. This kind of assumes you are a living creature to begin with. It then states the creature you become can be the same type you are. This kind of contradicts itself in the example of construct and/or undead.

No, it just means that Outsiders can turn into other Outsiders and Elementals can turn into other Elementals. The Target: line says "Target: Willing *living creature* touched". You can't target something that's not a living creature, period.
ArcTan
06-21-07, 11:35 PM So basically a warforged wizard could only use alter self to assume the form of the handful of living constructs out there. That is it...making this spell pretty worthless for them?

Incorrect. Alter self does *not* have the "living creature" limitation on it. A Vampire can use it to turn into other Undead, and a Warforged can use it to turn into other Constructs. However, a Warforged *cannot* use polymorph on himself at all.

Not saying that as contradictory, just asking for an exact clarification. Alter self actually says nothing about (living creature), so technically you could take the form of a construct with 5 HD or less.

Yes. The best uses for this would be to become an Animated Object in order to spy on people, or to become a Warforged Scout or Warforged Charger if you need to be hard to hit or to become a hard hitter.

This is then pointed to as the basis for polymorph, which however states turns one willing creature into another living creature (which assumes the subject was living to begin with).

There's no "assumption". The Target: line clearly says "Willing living creature touched".

This is a clear *difference* between alter self and polymorph. There's nothing un-kosher about different spells having different effects even when one is based on the other. That's kind of the point.

So alter self allows a warforged to become an Animated Table for example (both constructs). However, polymorph clearly says willing subject into another living creature.

Basically is this just a problem introduced by unforeseen warforged race? If so is it house rule time? I really see the issue as "alter self" is the basis for the polymorph line of spells; however, due to wording (which was done before warforged ever existed) they add a restriction to "polymorph" which "alter self" doesn't even have. This seems like more of a new creation not being planned for in a spell definition....or am I completely off base here?

It's not "wording". It's a very, very clear ruling. It's not new with Warforged, either. There've been NPC Vampire Wizards with the ability to cast polymorph since Strahd von Zurovich. The rules are very clear on this matter, and they make plenty of sense. A Vampire can turn into low-powered (under 5 HD) Undead but can't turn into anything else, because of the limits of his Undead nature. How is that a problem?
Lafarallin
06-21-07, 11:58 PM There've been NPC Vampire Wizards with the ability to cast polymorph since Strahd von Zurovich. The rules are very clear on this matter, and they make plenty of sense. A Vampire can turn into low-powered (under 5 HD) Undead but can't turn into anything else, because of the limits of his Undead nature. How is that a problem?

Because according to polymorph he couldn't do what you're saying he did. He is undead, he can not target himself with polymorph and can not become undead because it clearly says one living creature.
ArcTan
06-22-07, 12:02 AM Because according to polymorph he couldn't do what you're saying he did. He is undead, he can not target himself with polymorph and can not become undead because it clearly says one living creature.

I meant he can target himself with alter self. (The distinctions between polymorph-that-works-on-you and polymorph-that-works-on-others were different in older editions, but a modern version of Strahd would be able to use alter self on himself but *not* polymorph.)
Lafarallin
06-22-07, 12:08 AM I meant he can target himself with alter self. (The distinctions between polymorph-that-works-on-you and polymorph-that-works-on-others were different in older editions, but a modern version of Strahd would be able to use alter self on himself but *not* polymorph.)

Oops, misunderstood what you meant. We're like going back and forth on multiple threads so got a bit confused myself. Sorry. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lafarallin 06-21-07, 12:37 PM	Having some serious issues here with alter self spell and polymorph line as a warforged character. Having a type: construct and subtype: living construct...not sure exactly how this would all work. The same could be said for an undead character. I've heard a lot of views on how this would work but I'd like to hear some non-house rules if there are any. If there aren't I guess just knowing there aren't is good enough. The big argument regarding alter self (as a construct ) is could you become an effigy creature? The main issue with polymorph is it states you turn a willing subject into another living creature. This kind of assumes you are a living creature to begin with. It then states the creature you become can be the same type you are. This kind of contradicts itself in the example of construct and/or undead. Just curious how others view this and if there are official rulings concerning such situations.
runestar 06-21-07, 12:52 PM	The main issue with polymorph is it states you turn a willing subject into another living creature. This kind of assumes you are a living creature to begin with. It then states the creature you become can be the same type you are. This kind of contradicts itself in the example of construct and/or undead. Just assume they are not mutually exclusive. Sorta like drawing 2 circles overlapping each other, and the common area shared is what you can work with. Yes, you can turn into another creature of the same type as you, so long as that choice does not contradict the 1st one (must be living). So constructs and undead are not valid choices as they are not living (which by definition, must have a con score).:)
Lafarallin 06-21-07, 02:22 PM	Just assume they are not mutually exclusive. Sorta like drawing 2 circles overlapping each other, and the common area shared is what you can work with. Yes, you can turn into another creature of the same type as you, so long as that choice does not contradict the 1st one (must be living). So constructs and undead are not valid choices as they are not living (which by definition, must have a con score).:) So basically a warforged wizard could only use alter self to assume the form of the handful of living constructs out there. That is it...making this spell pretty worthless for them? Not saying that as contradictory, just asking for an exact clarification. Alter self actually says nothing about (living creature), so technically you could take the form of a construct with 5 HD or less. This is then pointed to as the basis for polymorph, which however states turns one willing creature into another living creature (which assumes the subject was living to begin with). So alter self allows a warforged to become an Animated Table for example (both constructs). However, polymorph clearly says willing subject into another living creature. Basically is this just a problem introduced by unforeseen warforged race? If so is it house rule time? I really see the issue as "alter self" is the basis for the polymorph line of spells; however, due to wording (which was done before warforged ever existed) they add a restriction to "polymorph" which "alter self" doesn't even have. This seems like more of a new creation not being planned for in a spell definition....or am I completely off base here?
ArcTan 06-21-07, 11:32 PM	Having some serious issues here with alter self spell and polymorph line as a warforged character. Having a type: construct and subtype: living construct...not sure exactly how this would all work. The same could be said for an undead character. I've heard a lot of views on how this would work but I'd like to hear some non-house rules if there are any. If there aren't I guess just knowing there aren't is good enough. The big argument regarding alter self (as a construct ) is could you become an effigy creature? Actually, now that I look back on it, no, you can't. Effigy is a template. Alter self never lets you take a form with a template. The main issue with polymorph is it states you turn a willing subject into another living creature. This kind of assumes you are a living creature to begin with. It then states the creature you become can be the same type you are. This kind of contradicts itself in the example of construct and/or undead. No, it just means that Outsiders can turn into other Outsiders and Elementals can turn into other Elementals. The Target: line says "Target: Willing living creature touched". You can't target something that's not a living creature, period.
ArcTan 06-21-07, 11:35 PM	So basically a warforged wizard could only use alter self to assume the form of the handful of living constructs out there. That is it...making this spell pretty worthless for them? Incorrect. Alter self does not have the "living creature" limitation on it. A Vampire can use it to turn into other Undead, and a Warforged can use it to turn into other Constructs. However, a Warforged cannot use polymorph on himself at all. Not saying that as contradictory, just asking for an exact clarification. Alter self actually says nothing about (living creature), so technically you could take the form of a construct with 5 HD or less. Yes. The best uses for this would be to become an Animated Object in order to spy on people, or to become a Warforged Scout or Warforged Charger if you need to be hard to hit or to become a hard hitter. This is then pointed to as the basis for polymorph, which however states turns one willing creature into another living creature (which assumes the subject was living to begin with). There's no "assumption". The Target: line clearly says "Willing living creature touched". This is a clear difference between alter self and polymorph. There's nothing un-kosher about different spells having different effects even when one is based on the other. That's kind of the point. So alter self allows a warforged to become an Animated Table for example (both constructs). However, polymorph clearly says willing subject into another living creature. Basically is this just a problem introduced by unforeseen warforged race? If so is it house rule time? I really see the issue as "alter self" is the basis for the polymorph line of spells; however, due to wording (which was done before warforged ever existed) they add a restriction to "polymorph" which "alter self" doesn't even have. This seems like more of a new creation not being planned for in a spell definition....or am I completely off base here? It's not "wording". It's a very, very clear ruling. It's not new with Warforged, either. There've been NPC Vampire Wizards with the ability to cast polymorph since Strahd von Zurovich. The rules are very clear on this matter, and they make plenty of sense. A Vampire can turn into low-powered (under 5 HD) Undead but can't turn into anything else, because of the limits of his Undead nature. How is that a problem?
Lafarallin 06-21-07, 11:58 PM	There've been NPC Vampire Wizards with the ability to cast polymorph since Strahd von Zurovich. The rules are very clear on this matter, and they make plenty of sense. A Vampire can turn into low-powered (under 5 HD) Undead but can't turn into anything else, because of the limits of his Undead nature. How is that a problem? Because according to polymorph he couldn't do what you're saying he did. He is undead, he can not target himself with polymorph and can not become undead because it clearly says one living creature.
ArcTan 06-22-07, 12:02 AM	Because according to polymorph he couldn't do what you're saying he did. He is undead, he can not target himself with polymorph and can not become undead because it clearly says one living creature. I meant he can target himself with alter self. (The distinctions between polymorph-that-works-on-you and polymorph-that-works-on-others were different in older editions, but a modern version of Strahd would be able to use alter self on himself but not polymorph.)
Lafarallin 06-22-07, 12:08 AM	I meant he can target himself with alter self. (The distinctions between polymorph-that-works-on-you and polymorph-that-works-on-others were different in older editions, but a modern version of Strahd would be able to use alter self on himself but not polymorph.) Oops, misunderstood what you meant. We're like going back and forth on multiple threads so got a bit confused myself. Sorry. :)