Post/Author/DateTime	Post
was_fired 06-23-04, 09:41 PM	I'm not a fan of any death effect which lacks can't be blocked so I have been going over ways to modify vorpal to still be a powerful enchantment but not a death to BBEGs since the law of the game dictates that BBEGs must die faster than any other foe. How about about: Vorpal The vorpal enchantment doubles the critical multiplier of your weapon (note that this uses the D&D system doubling) so a x2 weapon becomes a x3, a x3 becomes a x5, and a x4 becomes a x7. In addition you are capable of scoring a critical hit against foes which are normally immune to them. This does not allow abilities which do not function on foes which are imune to criticals to function such as sneak attack. Enchantment Cost: +5
lanilifar 06-23-04, 11:06 PM	That's nifty, but I don't think it is still worth a +5 bonus. Although the ability to crit those not able to be critted is pretty neat and may make it worth the +5. What do you do with other instant kill effects like finger of death, dominate person, etc.? Maybe you could simply add a Fort save to the Vorpal ability. (DC 25?)
was_fired 06-23-04, 11:36 PM	I don't mind most death effects since there are at least two defenses to each one. Finger of Death and the like have a SR, a fort/will save and can be completely negated by deathward and a fair number of races special traits. Power word kill has SR, a HP cap, can be negated by protection from alignment spells, deathward, and mind blank. Disintigrate has a fort save, SR, and can be blocked by a load of hitpoints. Stone to Flesh can be negated by SR, a fort save, and reversed by a standard action as you can cast flesh to stone or polymorph any object. My main problem with this version is I am not sure if it is still worth a +5. Maybe a +4, but I don't know if it's +5 worthy which is my current goal.
Deep Blue 9000 06-23-04, 11:58 PM	I think its fine at +5. It'd be weak on its own but with improved critical or keen, doubling the crit modifier is huge. A keen scythe would be 19-20/x7 and it can crit immune critters to boot!
DungeonMaster 06-24-04, 12:18 AM	Originally posted by was_fired I'm not a fan of any death effect which lacks can't be blocked Try the fortification enchantment of armor. It negates any critical hit. Vorpal only works on a critical hit. Problem solved. Generally I don't suggest nerfing the high level warrior's arsenal. When clerics can ask their god for favors and they do actually reply in kind, druids can shapechange into dragons and wizards wish reality as they want being able to slice something's head off is not a real game breaker.
TheDarkLord 06-24-04, 12:25 AM	IMHO, both my players and I have just disregarded vorpal and fortification as in the DMG as an enhancment for non-epic levels. Instead we have the vorpal weapon at +6 to enhancemnt (epic), and then we have light (15%), medium (30%), heavy(60%), Superior(90%) (epic) fortification. The reason i did this with Fortification was that it was the only thing that stopped vorpal, and without the Vorpal there was no need for a 100% crit blocking ability.. but thats just in my world.. Vorpal really has no flavor other than being "Uber slashing death" weapon...
Edymnion 06-24-04, 12:25 AM	Originally posted by DungeonMaster Try the fortification enchantment of armor. It negates any critical hit. Vorpal only works on a critical hit. Problem solved. Was waiting for someone to say that, actually. Vorpal does not work on a critical hit anymore. Its an effect that activates on a natural 20, and requires a critical confirmation to confirm that it activates. 3.5 makes it very clear that when an ability does this, you still roll to see if it activates, regardless of whether or not you could have criticaled on the target or not. See the Mace of Disruption for a good example. Sorry, but ever since they changed Vorpal to work only on a Natural 20, it can no longer be blocked by Fortification.
the Horc 06-24-04, 12:48 AM	Originally posted by Deep Blue 9000 I think its fine at +5. It'd be weak on its own but with improved critical or keen, doubling the crit modifier is huge. A keen scythe would be 19-20/x7 and it can crit immune critters to boot! Scythes have a crit multiplier of x4. x7 if you have Dragondoom and are facing a dragon maybe. But Edymnion is also right.
Deep Blue 9000 06-24-04, 03:48 AM	Whoops, I meant to say a VORPAL keen scythe.
DungeonMaster 06-24-04, 09:29 AM	Sorry Edymnion I thought this was a 3rd edition thread? 3.5 vorpal isn't any more dangerous than a save-or-die spell, it's very weak for it's enchantment cost. 3rd edition vorpal can be very deadly.
Kyuketsukiouji 06-24-04, 09:42 AM	3.0 vorpal was underpriced. If effectively gave an Epic Feat (Devastating Critical), with no save, for +5. It should have been at least +7.
Mantel_DeMenglamaar 06-24-04, 01:56 PM	Originally posted by Kyuketsukiouji 3.0 vorpal was underpriced. If effectively gave an Epic Feat (Devastating Critical), with no save, for +5. It should have been at least +7. It was also impossible. You needed 'Death Spell' to create a vorpal weapon, and outside of errata, no such spel existed in 3e. I still hold to the requirement for Fortification Armor against Vorpal stuff. Vorpal weapons are supposed to be two things. Rare. And TERRIFYING.
IceFractal 06-24-04, 02:03 PM	Price for something that doubles the crit multiplier: +1 But wait, I hear you saying, that's far, far, underpriced, its just way broken! No, it isn't, Keen is +1 and this has the same impact as Keen A 19-20/x2 weapon is equal to a 20/x3 weapon and an 18-20/x2 weapon is equal to a 20/x4 weapon, do the math if you don't believe me: Say a longsword: 19-20/x2 4.5 (avg damage) + (4.5 (avg extra damage from crit) * .1 (chance of crit)) = 4.95 20/x3 4.5 (avg damage) + (9 (avg extra damage from crit) *.05 (change of crit)) = 4.95 So we agree that the crit doubling property is only worth +1, and I argue that the "crit against undead and stuff" property is only worth +2, +3 at max. So this "lesser vorpal" power should be worth +3, or +4 at max.
tarkin 06-24-04, 02:17 PM	Yes, but he did NOT use the correct "doubling method". Using WoTC's method: Double a x3 is a x4, double a x4 is a x5, double a x5 is a x6. The made up "doubling" method he invented is wierd, not supported by anything else, and is NOT the equivelent of keen, so it should NOT be a +1
was_fired 06-24-04, 09:16 PM	The average damage change would be the same as keen Tarkin. Keen doubles the threat range a weapon so a 20/x2 weapon would do X + X/20 damage on average. The weapon when keened would do X + X/10. When this is applied it would deal X + 2*X/20. The effect which is doubled is the effect of the critical hit. A x2 critical hit does the weapons damage once more, a x3 does it a twice more so the additional damage is x2 in the case of a x3 weapon or x3 in the case of a x4 weapon. This is what was doubled. The two factors which I believe make this at least a +4 that it stacks with keen and improved critical so the above weapon once keened and made vorpal would be deal X + X/5 damage, four times the effect due to critical as the original, and the fact it allows you to crit creatures which are normally imune to critical hits which become more and more prominant as you level.
Etiquette_Gnome 08-13-04, 04:08 AM	I don't like the Vorpal quality myself, killing something on a confirmed natural 20 is a bit much when saves or HD or anything else isn't taken into account. What I've done with Vorpal is to keep it at its +5 enhancement bonus, but to change its power. The critical multiplier for any weapon will be increased by 3 (standard 20/x2 weapon becomes a 20/x5). While yes, the mechanical effects of increasing the multiplier is equal to increasing the threat range an equal amount, it can stack with keen. Also, I've house-ruled that keen stacks with Improved Critical again, making any further increase to a weapon's effectiveness that much greater. You need to also consider that Power Attack, with a two-handed weapon, is actually better served with an increase to the multiplier than to the threat range. Because of stacking effects, and that increasing the threat range is already firmly established, the cost for increasing the multiplier needs to be higher. I've gotten the opinion of several of my players, and they agree with the +5 bonus cost to increase the multiplier by three. One player just got a +1 Keen Vorpal Adamantine Greatsword, and she's loving this whole 17-20/x5 business. I suspect that she'll take Improved Critical next level too...
Failut 08-13-04, 08:23 AM	Darn doulbe posts..
Failut 08-13-04, 08:24 AM	Originally posted by Etiquette_Gnome I don't like the Vorpal quality myself, killing something on a confirmed natural 20 is a bit much when saves or HD or anything else isn't taken into account. What I've done with Vorpal is to keep it at its +5 enhancement bonus, but to change its power. The critical multiplier for any weapon will be increased by 3 (standard 20/x2 weapon becomes a 20/x5). While yes, the mechanical effects of increasing the multiplier is equal to increasing the threat range an equal amount, it can stack with keen. Also, I've house-ruled that keen stacks with Improved Critical again, making any further increase to a weapon's effectiveness that much greater. You need to also consider that Power Attack, with a two-handed weapon, is actually better served with an increase to the multiplier than to the threat range. Because of stacking effects, and that increasing the threat range is already firmly established, the cost for increasing the multiplier needs to be higher. I've gotten the opinion of several of my players, and they agree with the +5 bonus cost to increase the multiplier by three. One player just got a +1 Keen Vorpal Adamantine Greatsword, and she's loving this whole 17-20/x5 business. I suspect that she'll take Improved Critical next level too... oooohhh.. can I have a keen vorpal adamantine scimitar in your game? If have have improved crit I can have a weapon that is 12-20/x5! woot! that is a crit on pretty much every other attack! Then I just need another one and, BINGO! dual scimitars of death dealing! Sorry could not resist. I like how 3.5 vorpal works out. Plays out well in a game. never had any issues with it or the new Keen/improved Crit changes.
Draco Argentum 08-13-04, 09:48 AM	Originally posted by was_fired The average damage change would be the same as keen Tarkin. Yep, Tarkin is wrong. Its a bad idea for an enchantment though. Since keen and this vorpal multiply their effect rather than add scimitars are going to come out ahead of longswords. (60% crit damage vs. 40%)
KittenWarrior 08-13-04, 07:12 PM	I've already posted something simialr in another thread, but here it is again: While a crit multiplier increase statistically gives the same increase in average damage as an increae in threat range, the latter is still more valuable. Despite Consider these two hypothetical weapons: A. crit on a 20, multiplier x20 B. crit on 2-20/multiplier x2 both weapons will deal 1.95 x base damage on average, but which one would you prefer? Weapon B will strike for twice base damage virtually every round, while with weapon A you have a 1 in 20 chance of finishing the creature off in one blow.. Increasing multipliers increases randomness which is a bad thing, unless you happen to be significantly weaker than your opponent. Cheers, KW
Draco Argentum 08-13-04, 10:00 PM	Originally posted by KittenWarrior both weapons will deal 1.95 x base damage on average Only if you can hit on a 2. Most people can't do that with all of their attacks so extreme critical ranges are usually not going to give great average damage.
Etiquette_Gnome 08-14-04, 04:28 AM	Originally posted by Failut can I have a keen vorpal adamantine scimitar in your game? If have have improved crit I can have a weapon that is 12-20/x5! Sure, go ahead. For a weapon that costs over a 100 thousand, that limits the level you can have such toys (15th or so). I'd rather see something die from actual damage rather than seeing 5% of all hits automatically kill a target. The Fortification debate would be unneccessary too. Keep in mind that having a character focused on dealing criticals suffers from situational usefulness, namely its power being gone against a large number of creature types.
KittenWarrior 08-14-04, 05:02 PM	Originally posted by Draco Argentum Only if you can hit on a 2. Most people can't do that with all of their attacks so extreme critical ranges are usually not going to give great average damage. Yes, obviously. My point however, was to illustrate that in general, increasing threat range is better than increasing multiplier.. I trust that came across allright..? Cheers, KW
Simetrical 08-15-04, 12:23 AM	Keen doubles the threat range a weapon so a 20/x2 weapon would do X + X/20 damage on average. The weapon when keened would do X + X/10. When this is applied it would deal X + 2*X/20. ~was_fired And the same is true for a 20/x3 weapon. That would do X + 2X/20 damage, or X + X/10. If keen, it would do X + 2X/10, or X + X/5. If it became 20/x4, as normal doubling would make it, it would do X + 3X/20 damage, or 25% less. If it became 20/x5, however, it would do X + 4X/20, or X + X/5, same as keen. Increasing multipliers increases randomness which is a bad thing, unless you happen to be significantly weaker than your opponent. ~KittenWarrior However, on the other hand, increasing multipliers always gives you a benefit, no matter what the circumstances. Increasing threat ranges might not always make a difference—if you can only hit on a 18, you've lost the benefit of the keen on your rapier, where you wouldn't have lost the benefit with the proposed vorpal enchantment. I'll agree that this is outweighed by the increased randomness, however, at least as long as the ending range isn't bigger than 15-20 or so.
Draco Argentum 08-15-04, 03:28 AM	Originally posted by KittenWarrior Yes, obviously. My point however, was to illustrate that in general, increasing threat range is better than increasing multiplier.. I trust that came across allright..? It came across, its just that the answer isn't that simple. A x7 multiplier makes a CDG insane for example. It also provokes the massive damage rule more easily.