Post/Author/DateTime	Post
StormKnight 10-22-04, 10:16 AM	Considering offering some additional spellcasting options, and wanting feedback on how these will work and balance. Wizards: Wizards may choose to be Memorization casters, in which case they work exactly as normal. Or, they may be Dynamic casters. A dynamic caster must spend the normal time studying to recharge her spells, but does not need to select spells at that time. Instead, a dynamic caster must take a standard action to charge a spell. This draws attacks of opportunity just like casting a spell would, and any options available for casting a spell apply to charging a spell (so a havoc mage could charge a spell while attacking, you can charge on the defensive to prevent AoO, and so on). Once charged, a spell may be cast normally. You may only keep one spell charged at a time. Charging a second spell will override the old one, using up the casting as though you had cast it. You may however take an action to release a charged spell, in which case the casting is not drained. Meta magic does not need to be applied until the spell is actually cast. Thus, you might decide to charge Magic Missile, but when you cast decide you want a maximized magic missile. If a wizard is adept at a spell, she may charge it without drawing AoO or requiring hand gestures or words - at that point, just concentration is needed. Divine Casters: A Divine caster may be a vessel, in which case she prays for and casts spells normally. Or she may choose to be a channel. A channel must spend the normal time in prayer/meditation to recharge casting, but does not need to pick spells at that time. Like the dynamic wizard, a channel must spend an action to channel a spell, preparing it for use. However, there are a few differences: 1) Channeling a spell does not draw AoO, nor is it visibly noticeable. 2) The channeled spell must be cast immediately on the next round, or the opportunity is lost - no casting is used, but the caster must channel again before she can cast a spell. It can't be saved like a charged spell can. 3) You don't need to select what spell you will cast until you actually cast it. You could choose to channel intending to bless the fighter, then decide you would rather cast a protection spell on yourself. Spontaneus spells do not need to be channelled - you can cast those freely. So a cleric can cast cure spells without needing to channel first. Or, you can choose to be a blessed one. The blessed must meditate to charge their castings, but otherwise work like a sorcerer. They receive a number of spells known equal to the number of castings they have, plus any spontaneus spells the class would normally receive. Castings may be chosen freely from those spells, but other spells cannot be cast at all. On a extra houserule for all types of magic, meta-magic on spontaneus spells does not increase the casting time. So, will this work? The concept behind dynamic mages and channelers is that they will have a great deal more flexibility, but with only half the casting speed, their effectiveness in combat will a lot lower. It seems like a reasonable tradeoff. Does this sounds playable/balanced?
Captain Casualty 10-22-04, 10:31 AM	Couple of questions 1) Sorcerors, are you ignoring them or just rubbing there face in the upgraded wizard/cleric? 2) How many spells can a caster memorise in order to later place in slots? 3) how often can they change them? It seems to me that this is a bump (and maybe a massive bump) in spellcaster flexibility and power. Fine if thats what you want to do. May i suggest if you do not want to be so blatant that this alternate spellcasting be limited somehow ie take a meta-magic feat in order to do it.
StormKnight 10-22-04, 11:21 AM	Couple of questions 1) Sorcerors, are you ignoring them or just rubbing there face in the upgraded wizard/cleric? Well, the concept is that the balance should be relatively the same. Yes, a wizard gets a huge boost in flexibility, and can now choose spells as needed like a sorcerer. But, the need to spend an extra action to prepare each spell should really downplay the wizard's ability in combat, and their need to "announce" castings a turn in advance will leave the sorcerer an edge of subtelty. The sorcerer should still be the winner in terms of raw power and combat ability. The blessed divine caster meanwhile gains sorcerer ability in terms of short term flexibility, but loses a lot of overall flexibility as they can no longer draw on the whole divine spell list. 2) How many spells can a caster memorise in order to later place in slots? 3) how often can they change them? I'm not sure I'm following you here...if you are referring to 'charging' the spells, you can only have one spell charged at a time. So, let's say you've got 'Fireball' readied. If you suddenly decide you really need to cast 'Feather Fall', you need to either: a) Spend an action to charge Feather Fall, thereby losing fireball entirely and marking off a casting box as though you had cast it. or b) Spend one action to release Fireball, and then another action to charge Feather Fall. More time consuming, but it doesn't cost anything. It seems to me that this is a bump (and maybe a massive bump) in spellcaster flexibility and power. Fine if thats what you want to do. May i suggest if you do not want to be so blatant that this alternate spellcasting be limited somehow ie take a meta-magic feat in order to do it. Well, this is what I'm trying to figure out. Is it a bump in power, or does the added casting time cancel out the benefit? I'm trying to keep it about the same. I really wouldn't want it as a feat as the concept is its supposed to be a whole different style of casting - you either do it one way or the other from day one of casting spells. The whole reason for this, by the way, is sort of a condition of getting my group to give D&D a try again. I want to give it another try, they aren't so sure. One of the things they've said will really help with them giving it another try is having another option than the 'memorized' spellcasting, which no one (myself included) likes.
StormKnight 10-25-04, 09:00 AM	Well, I see you can get a spontaneus divine caster with the 'Favored Soul', so I think I'll drop the Blessed One - too similair. But, nobody has any helpful ideas on whether or not the extra turn to cast will balance out being able to choose spells?
Captain Casualty 10-25-04, 10:16 AM	Ok not been clear Or, they may be Dynamic casters. A dynamic caster must spend the normal time studying to recharge her spells, but does not need to select spells at that time. Now the way i read that what this means is that they essentially become sorcerors who get to choose there spell list each day. So my question was how often do they HAVE to re memorize (daily/never Etc). Secondly how often do they have to re-energize the charges(daily/never Etc)? Is a spell burnt by using it in a charged slot or is just the charge burnt? Ie A wizard has three first level slots and charges one To MM. his target is dropped before that and instead he wants to sleep another bunch. He loses in addition to the wasted time a) his charge only b) his spell only and therefore cannot MM later or c) his charge and his slot? is there a d? You may only keep one spell charged at a time. Charging a second spell will override the old one, using up the casting as though you had cast it. You may however take an action to release a charged spell, in which case the casting is not drained. Probably explained there but me being dense and all spell it out. Instead, a dynamic caster must take a standard action to charge a spell. This draws attacks of opportunity just like casting a spell would, and any options available for casting a spell apply to charging a spell (so a havoc mage could charge a spell while attacking, you can charge on the defensive to prevent AoO, and so on). Once charged, a spell may be cast normally. Let me ask my question about holding charge a diffrent way then. Wizard sees dark tunnel mouth-charges a spell (MM for example) and wanders down hole, later sees a target. He has not discharged the spell so can he cast it instantly effectively using pre planning to cast it as a quickened spell? If he can how long can he hold it to do this? is there any mechanism for it such as concentration checks to hold a charge while walking or for a number of rounds equal to Int/Wis bonus? May be cheesy but somebody will try it. So, will this work? The concept behind dynamic mages and channelers is that they will have a great deal more flexibility, but with only half the casting speed, their effectiveness in combat will a lot lower. It seems like a reasonable tradeoff. Does this sounds playable/balanced? maybe. The thing is it will probably tend to do wierd things to spell lists. Since (except in the special case of a held charge being used as an effective quicken magic) none of the "quick" spells will be used. On the other hand full round spells (summon thingy) will be relatively a lot less onerous as there is already a delay built in. Take a lot of playtesting but my opinion is that providing I do not get wierd answers to my questions above that it is worth trying. After all a radically different spell list is not necesarilly a bad thing... Just be ready to jump on abuse or roll back if it results in mage puree
StormKnight 10-25-04, 01:05 PM	Captain Casualty, Let's see if I can explain things any better :) Say you've got a first level wizard, who I think (no books handy and I've got a poor memory, so these numbers may be off) gets to cast 3 0-level and 1 1st level spell in a day. We'll say you've got an INT bonus and get an extra 1st level spell. You wake up in the morning and must spend the normal amount of time studying your spellbook. At the end of that time, you have now refreshed your ability to cast 3 level 0 and 2 level 1 spells. Right now, you do not need to make any sort of decisions about what those spells are. You prepare to go into a cave that you think is filled with orcs, so you want to have a Sleep spell ready. You spend one action to charge Sleep (no problem on time here, you've not in combat or anything). You now have that spell ready. You walk into the cave and meet orcs, you can then cast that sleep exactly as if casting a normal spell - taking a standard action, drawing AoO and so on. Let's say you do so. You now have 2 level 0 castings and 1 level 1 casting left. Next round, you decide a Burning Hands would be in order. First, you need to take a standard action to charge burning hands, drawing AoO as if you were casting a spell. But, the rest of the party finishes off the orcs before your next turn. Now you've got burning hands charged. On the other hand, lets say you went into the cave and found that the orcs had been killed and raised as zombies, so your sleep spell is useless. What you really want is a Magic Missile. So you can do one of two things: 1) Spend a round to charge magic missile. Now, you will have to mark off a casting for sleep, just as if you had cast it. 2) Spend a round to release sleep, then another round to charge magic missile, then finally one more round to cast your magic missile. This takes three rounds, but only uses up the magic missile casting. So, lets see, stray other questions: After being charged, the spell still takes a standard action to cast, so it is not 'quickened' for free. Recharge your castings takes the normal amount of time for studying spellbooks/praying for spells. I fully intend that you wizards can hold one charged spell as long as you don't go to sleep or get knocked out. You can walk around all day with it if you like. Note that this doesn't apply to divine casters, who draw power and then MUST use it next turn. If a divine caster does not use a spell after channeling power, they don't lose the casting, but they must channel again to be able to cast the spell. Did I manage to make that all make sense?
teclis 10-25-04, 02:10 PM	your first post did left the dynamic caster mechanic vague, but now I think I understand. Yes, reducing the number of spells a wizard can cast over time balances out their gain in flexibility, IMO, they become much less useful in combat and way more useful out. second: how do quickened spells work in this sytem? will you dissallow quicken? or could you hold a quicken charge in addition to your normal charge. this would make it somewhat like psionics, with their psionic focus.
Kyuketsukiouji 10-25-04, 02:32 PM	This seems to me to actually be too weak. At higher levels, it actually turns the wizard into a poor sorcerer. You have less spells per day, you know more, but since you can only cast one every two rounds, your versatility is pretty useless. You need some mechanism to allow your Dynamic Caster (and you should really try to come up with a better name for them, like Spellweaver or something) to charge more than one spell at once, and/or to charge spells faster (MEA charge and quicken charge as feats, maybe?). This is starting to sound like a completely new core class to me, on further reflection.
Captain Casualty 10-26-04, 04:38 AM	ok thanks for the clarification. How would items like Spell storing work? Would they work for this Spell charger mage? and would ther be alternate items for them. Ring of charge storing? If so would they be used for extra castings, spell speed(since the ring can give you a pre charge maybe you do not need to spend the time charging) or both? Oh and by the way normally play a fighter, to me charging a spell has a much diffrent meaning! :cool:
StormKnight 10-26-04, 08:51 AM	second: how do quickened spells work in this sytem? will you dissallow quicken? or could you hold a quicken charge in addition to your normal charge. this would make it somewhat like psionics, with their psionic focus. When you charge a spell, you don't need to decide what meta-magic you apply to it. So, if you knew Quicken, you could spend an action charging magic missle, then immediately cast is as quickened in the same round. Or, if your magic missile was already charged, you could cast is with quicken as a swift action. I'm also removing the restriction that meta-magic on spontaneus magic makes it a full round action. This seems to me to actually be too weak. At higher levels, it actually turns the wizard into a poor sorcerer. You have less spells per day, you know more, but since you can only cast one every two rounds, your versatility is pretty useless. You need some mechanism to allow your Dynamic Caster (and you should really try to come up with a better name for them, like Spellweaver or something) to charge more than one spell at once, and/or to charge spells faster (MEA charge and quicken charge as feats, maybe?). This is starting to sound like a completely new core class to me, on further reflection. The wizard still has the extra feats and ability to learn new spells easily! I'm trying to maintain them as distinct - a wizard is more subtle and out of combat, a sorcerer can be more direct. But I don't want a new core class - I just want to tweak the existing classes as little as possible. I agree though, I need to call it something better. I don't have in mind that its a whole different 'kind' of wizard though - the two would study at the same wizard's guild and such, they just approach it in different ways.
Kyuketsukiouji 10-26-04, 10:37 AM	If quicken allows you to cast in the same round as you charge, then that takes care of the speed issue. But does that mean your charge wizards don't pay the metamagic cost? If that's the case, you just broke it the other way, since I'll be casting Maximised Empowered Quicken Fireball out of level 3 slots to my heart's content...
StormKnight 10-26-04, 10:52 AM	If quicken allows you to cast in the same round as you charge, then that takes care of the speed issue. But does that mean your charge wizards don't pay the metamagic cost? If that's the case, you just broke it the other way, since I'll be casting Maximised Empowered Quicken Fireball out of level 3 slots to my heart's content... Er...perhaps I said something poorly there. You still have to pay the cost. If, for example, you decided to quicken your fireball (quicken being a +2 level meta-magic, right?) you would need to use up a level 5 spell slot, not a level 3 spell slot. Its just that you don't have to decide until you actually cast it. (Had to quit abruptly before finishing my last reply, so I'm following up here) How would items like Spell storing work? I'll have go look up exactly what a Spell storing item does :) But my intent is that such items will work exactly like they normally do, still storing a specific spell. So, a dynamic caster with a scroll still has to decide what spell goes on that scroll, they don't get to use it as just a 'blank' charge. ...but since you can only cast one every two rounds, your versatility is pretty useless. Hm. Perhaps this is just the people I play with, but my group tends to prize versatility pretty highly! I think there are also some mitigating factors in that a wizard who's casting a spell every turn will have burned up all her spells after a single encounter or two anyway! :) To tell the truth, I'm not nearly as worried about the option being underpowered as if it is overpowered. This is an option that the players who hate memorized castings (er, that would be the whole group) can take, so they could always go with the default system if this seems to weak. But if anyone else has simple suggestions for how to get rid of memorized castings, I'd love to hear them! Thanks for all the feedback!
Vanigo 10-26-04, 09:46 PM	Er...perhaps I said something poorly there. You still have to pay the cost. If, for example, you decided to quicken your fireball (quicken being a +2 level meta-magic, right?) you would need to use up a level 5 spell slot, not a level 3 spell slot. Its just that you don't have to decide until you actually cast it. +4. That quickened fireball is going to take a 7th level spell slot. You might want to houserule it lower for dynamic and channeling casters; it'd go a long way toward making this playable. Hm. Perhaps this is just the people I play with, but my group tends to prize versatility pretty highly! I think there are also some mitigating factors in that a wizard who's casting a spell every turn will have burned up all her spells after a single encounter or two anyway! :)That's what scrolls are for - versatility and being able to cast more spells a day than you otherwise would. The gold and experience costs are nothing next to halving your combat effectiveness. To tell the truth, I'm not nearly as worried about the option being underpowered as if it is overpowered. This is an option that the players who hate memorized castings (er, that would be the whole group) can take, so they could always go with the default system if this seems to weak. But if anyone else has simple suggestions for how to get rid of memorized castings, I'd love to hear them! Thanks for all the feedback! Well, you don't have to worry about it being overpowered. There are a couple ways to modify memorization in Unearthed Arcana that you might want to check out. Basically, you memorize spells (unless you're a sorcerer or a bard), but you don't forget spells when you cast them. Instead, you either spend spell points, or have to wait a period of time before you can cast another spell of the same level again.
StormKnight 10-27-04, 10:21 AM	+4. That quickened fireball is going to take a 7th level spell slot. You might want to houserule it lower for dynamic and channeling casters; it'd go a long way toward making this playable. That's what scrolls are for - versatility and being able to cast more spells a day than you otherwise would. The gold and experience costs are nothing next to halving your combat effectiveness. Well, you don't have to worry about it being overpowered. There are a couple ways to modify memorization in Unearthed Arcana that you might want to check out. Basically, you memorize spells (unless you're a sorcerer or a bard), but you don't forget spells when you cast them. Instead, you either spend spell points, or have to wait a period of time before you can cast another spell of the same level again. I glanced at UA. Basically the system in there is "memorize spells, then spend spell points to cast them." To me, this is the worst of both worlds; you still have to memorize spells, but you now have spell points to keep track of, and since you can freely select among spells of different levels rather than having limited slots of each, you are likely to find "optimal" spells and use only those. I'm still sort of amazed people consider this underpowered; we'll have to play it and see I suppose.
Kyuketsukiouji 10-27-04, 10:32 AM	The casting delay is a serious power loss. Consider: They nuked Haste and Timestop because it was too powerful to allow a caster to cast 2+ spells a round. That right there should be an indication that 1 spell /2 rounds is a *very* bad hit. In a spell battle, 1 spell/2 rounds means you're dead. You cast one spell, I cast one, then you do nothing while I cast a spells, and so on... It'll hurt towards the middle levels, I'm sure. At first it won't hurt, because you don't have enough spells to cast too many in a fight anyways, but around level 5-10, you'll notice the pain.
StormKnight 10-27-04, 11:01 AM	The casting delay is a serious power loss. Consider: They nuked Haste and Timestop because it was too powerful to allow a caster to cast 2+ spells a round. That right there should be an indication that 1 spell /2 rounds is a *very* bad hit. In a spell battle, 1 spell/2 rounds means you're dead. You cast one spell, I cast one, then you do nothing while I cast a spells, and so on... It'll hurt towards the middle levels, I'm sure. At first it won't hurt, because you don't have enough spells to cast too many in a fight anyways, but around level 5-10, you'll notice the pain. What may be needed is to increase the number of spells a caster can charge as they go up in level. One difference may also be that games I have run in the past (in other game systems) are normally very high in "adventuring" and numerous other obstacles than combat; in such situations, it is extremely hard to predict what spells will be useful, and thus the value of flexibility increases more. The upcoming game is likely to be a lot more combat oriented, so maybe opinions will change. I should note that in general I feel that divine casters get much more out of this than arcane casters do, with their greater spell selection and generally less direct-offensive orientation. A Healer, for example, should find this a great boon; when last we had a healer he always just ended up choosing basic healing because there was no way to know which specialty healing spells will be needed. So, other suggestions for how to remove memorization while keeping things balanced? Because really, while the flexibility is a slight issue (again, much more for divine casters than arcane casters), the real problem is the memorization system. I just can't think of anything other than delayed casting time that's fairly easy to implement.
Kyuketsukiouji 10-27-04, 11:44 AM	Gaining more "charge" slots as you get better seem to me to way to go. If I can keep 2 or 3 spells charged at once, I can keep some good spells charged for a bit, and charge others as I need them. If you are familiar with the Roger Zelazny "Amber" novels, this approach would be similar to the one used by the character "Merlin". e.i.: Charge a spell, keep it "hanging" until you need it, and set it off when you need to use it. Since I can drain charged spells, I could "recycle" the charged spells if I find myself in a situation where I need to change my readied spells. There should also be a time span after which a charged spell becomes "stale".
StormKnight 10-27-04, 06:07 PM	So, perhaps add something like: For wizards: When you get the ability to cast level 3 spells, you also gain the ability to hold 2 charged spells at a time. When you get the ability to cast level 6 spells, you also gain the ability to hold 3 charged spells at a time. And when you can cast level 9 spells, you can hold up to 4 charged spells. For divine casters: When you can cast level 3 spells, you can cast a spell once per day without needing to channel. When you can cast level 6 spells, you can cast twice a day without channeling. At level 9 spells, cast without channeling 3 times a day.
Captain Casualty 10-28-04, 06:09 AM	So, other suggestions for how to remove memorization while keeping things balanced? Because really, while the flexibility is a slight issue (again, much more for divine casters than arcane casters), the real problem is the memorization system. I just can't think of anything other than delayed casting time that's fairly easy to implement. Ok there are other possible systems. A friend of mine ran a campaign where there were no xp and very little gold costs to create scrolls. The kicker was that you COULD NOT just cast spells. Instead you had to cast from pre prepared scrolls. (he loved sorcerors and thought this made them even cooler as they did not need scrolls) The material requirements were also included on the scrolls and formed the main cost. Usually you cast the spell and the scroll would crumble to ash in your hand. This had versatility (as people would scribe multiple copies of just about every spell they can think of) and it had a built in limitation of casting in that you only had so many scrolls. He eventually called it quits because of getting a new job in CERN but his players enjoyed it. Their were a few points he made. 1) Get fireproof paper - the first fireball can ruin your casters whole day 2) Give them down time to rescribe 3) Enforce encumberance - if you don't they look blankly at you when you tell them you cannot have 17 to the power 45 magic missile scrolls 4) Be prepared for market consequences - scrolls are everywhere 5) Consider making read magic and scribe scroll the only arcane requirements 6) Do not enforce rules for paper cuts 7) Meta magic feats were enforced on the scribing process. Whether this works for you depends on what it is you do not like about the memorization system. As for the whole debate about under or overpowered it worked in his world because everybody could do it. A lot of people have commented on the power of your origanal proposal, some claiming the flexibility is a killer and the others saying the casting time is a killer. I stick with my first point - it needs to be tested. Frankly I have no idea how it will play. A lot of your ideas seem to be because the players might not like it. Whilst the fun of the game is co-operative play there are reasons for the mechanics and changing them frankly gets you into this kind of debate.
StormKnight 10-28-04, 10:26 AM	Cap, The scroll idea is interesting, though I don't think it would really work for me. It doesn't really work with divine casters, and divine casters is really where the problem is centered. A lot of your ideas seem to be because the players might not like it. It sort of goes beyond "not like it" into "we'll only play if you can get rid of the stupid spell memorization" :) And I can't really argue, because I don't like it either!
ksbsnowowl 10-28-04, 01:12 PM	So, other suggestions for how to remove memorization while keeping things balanced? Because really, while the flexibility is a slight issue (again, much more for divine casters than arcane casters), the real problem is the memorization system. I just can't think of anything other than delayed casting time that's fairly easy to implement.I've recently revamped my arcane magic system. Whereas you took the wizard class and gave it flexibility with increased casting time (making it more like a sorcerer), I took a sorcerer and gave him the option to cast spells from a spellbook with increased casting time (giving him some of the spell versatility of a wizard). Have a look at it HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=275173). Maybe it'll give you some new ideas of how to achieve what you're looking for in a magic system.
StormKnight 10-28-04, 02:49 PM	Here's the next idea I'm toying with, based on comments so far. Basically this is just a slight revision, but makes for much less of a power hit. A Divine caster may choose to be a Vessel (normal rules) or a Channel (rules below). A Wizard may choose what style she uses: Formal (normal rules) or Primal (rules below). A Channel/Primal caster must pray/study to recover castings normally, but does not need to select spells at that time. In order to cast spells, such a caster must first use a Channel action. Channeling is a standard action, and is treated in all respects as if the caster were casting a level 0 spell with VS components, except that a casting is not spent UNLESS metamagic is used on it. Once a caster has sucessfully channeled, they may cast spells freely. However, every round that the caster does not cast a spell, she must make a concentration check to retain the channel. On a failed roll, the channel is lost and she must take the channel action again to be able to cast spells. The DC for this check is 10 for the first round, and increases by 10 each consecutive round. So, lets say a wizard gets into a fight. She wants to cast spells right away and knows the quicken feat, so she can go ahead and channel, using quicken and needing to mark off a level 4 spell to do so. She can then cast spells normally, starting right that round. She uses a fireball, then a sleep spell next round. The next round, a foe gets annoyed with her casting and manages to stun her. She spends the next action recovering, so must roll a DC 10 check. She makes it and everything is fine. Next round, those foes have been dispatched, so she has nothing she immediately wants to cast but would like to maintain the channel in case there are immediate suprises. She must roll at DC 20 (2 consecutive rounds without casting). She fails the roll, thus losing the channel, and she will need to channel again before she can cast more spells. By the way, the objections to the memorization system are: 1) It is very tedius and annoying to have to record the current spell selection and applied meta-magic feats every game day. 2) With pre-selected spells, it is difficult to impossible to select situational spells, leading to standardized selections of the "most useful" spells and a lot of more interesting spells never being used. I will note again, this complaint is much less about wizards (who can compensate for #2 at least with scrolls and leaving spell slots open) and much more about divine casters who have no such options. (Though complaint #1 applies in either case).
Vanigo 10-28-04, 09:05 PM	Actually, divine casters can scribe scrolls if they take the feat. The new system looks interesting, but I think you might have made it too powerful. Now you've got all the added versatility, and very little of the cost. You lose one action at the beginning of combat (or one 4th level spell slot if you've got Quicken Spell), but not a whole lot else. At lower levels, losing a cantrip might be significant, but it's not that big a deal. Of course, casting outside of combat would be tougher, since you'd have to blow a cantrip (or whatever the lowest spell level you've got left is) every time you needed to cast another spell or two, but that's easily offset with a bag of pearls of power (1st).
Kyuketsukiouji 10-28-04, 11:33 PM	I like this revised system even less than the original one. Basically, a caster wastes a round at the beginning of a fight, and they've got the best of both Wizardry and Sorcery. Doesn't work for me at all.
Captain Casualty 10-29-04, 07:45 AM	The new proposed system looks intresting and is (at least to me) much clearer. If I was to criticise I would argue that that you should lose castings for unspent channels. Maybe differentiate between forced and unforced dissipation? Maybe a Meta'd slot always counts still. The party by the way. Why is this such a big deal? is it one player or all of them? What sort and level of party has every member complaining about the memorization rules? No fighters? No Rogues? Seriously though I think that this is now a workable system and needs very few amendments if any. What i would actually be most interested in now is a play testing report. Otherwise we can keep arguing about how many sorcerors will kill themselves over ther lack of use and how many clerics can dance on the head of a pin etc.
StormKnight 11-01-04, 11:00 AM	What sort and level of party has every member complaining about the memorization rules? Well, no party at all. That's the point. They won't try it unless I change spell memorization :) Last time we played we had: 1 Fighter - obviously, no spell problem rules there. 1 Warmage - who is a spontaneous caster. No problem. Except the player really would have preferred to have a wizard but wasn't willing to put up with having to memorize spells. 1 Ranger - who got annoyed with the memorizing as soon as she got spells. 1 Healer - who truly has a useless selection of abilities when you have to pre-pick them. At any rate, I think for the moment, the plan is to go with the one action to charge, then cast (keeping it the same for arcane and divine). Charging will count as a level 0 spell casting but will not use a spell slot. If this seems to weak, we'll add in bonuses at higher levels.