Alternate Spellpoint System? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternate Spellpoint System? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mordaedil
12-04-05, 08:04 PM Hi all. Please bear with me, as this is my first post here...

I do not own the Unearthed Arcana supplement yet, however I plan to purchase it. In the meantime, I've been heavily occupied with playing D&D on the computer, through games such as Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil and my all-time favorite, Neverwinter Nights.

In playing Neverwinter Nights, which allows such a "fun" thing as online servers for people to play against/with eachother, I came to discover that the primary D&D rules often made the casters gods for ten seconds, and then weaklings who had to run or rest. When such a system as the HCR is introduced, an unfun tedium called the waiting game in a corner of a dungeon came into play. In my many days hoping this would somehow be resolved I came upon writing down a magic point system, reflecting the hitpoints system and additionally providing a more defining add-on, with random skill points.

Let me know what you think, after reading this next part.

Figuring sorcerers would have the most 'power' I concidered giving their class a d12 "Hit Die" in magic, let's say Mana Die. Wizards and druids gain similar amounts of spells per day casting, but clerics and specialized wizards gain even more. So, d10 for clerics and spec. wizards and d8 for druids and general wizards. I figured bards next, would get d6 Mana Die, while rangers and paladins would get a d4 Mana Die. Now, amount of mana is generated from the Mana Die roll result and added with prospective casting ability modifier.

Finally, I just wanted to throw something more in there, so they could define their characters better than with a set amount of skill points and move up to more random skill points, and once again use the same idea... This could probably need some tuning, so feedback would be appreciated.

This is the table I wrote:

Barbarian:
HP: d12 SP: d8 MP: -

Bard: Arcane(Song, Charisma)
HP: d6 SP: d10 MP: d6

Cleric: Divine(Gods, Wisdom)
HP: d8 SP: d4 MP: d10

Druid: Divine(Nature, Wisdom)
HP: d8 SP: d8 MP: d8

Fighter:
HP: d10 SP: d4 MP: -

Monk: Divine(Ki, Wisdom)
HP: d8 SP: d8 MP: d6

Paladin: Divine(Gods, Wisdom)
HP: d10 SP: d4 MP: d4

Ranger: Divine(Nature, Wisdom)
HP: d8 SP: d10 MP: d4

Rogue:
HP: d6 SP: d12 MP: -

Sorcerer: Arcane(Spirit, Charisma)
HP: d4 SP: d4 MP: d12

Wizard: Arcane(Knowledge, Intelligence)
HP: d4 SP: d4 MP: d8

Wizard Specialist: Arcane(Knowledge, Intelligence)
HP: d4 SP: d4 MP: d10

As you may have noticed, I gave the monk Mana Die. I figured their abilities could be somewhat limited to their Ki, and not just constantly useful. Unsure how to tackle this, but these are things I'd like comments on.

Thank you for reading this far.
Mordaedil
12-05-05, 09:41 AM No comments?
pquekadl
12-05-05, 05:20 PM Current spell levels per day at level 20
Sorcerer: 270
Wizard: 180
Cleric: 240
Druid: 195
Bard: 84
Ranger and Paladin: 30

The above calculations don't include 0 lvl spells or bonus spells. On a side note, your system doesn't address either of those.

Spell levels at lvl 20 using your system (assuming average roles)
Sorcerer: 130
Wizard and Druid: 90
Clerics and spec. Wizards: 110
Bard: 70
Ranger and Paladin: 50

In conclusion, this system will overpower the ranger and paladin, give the bard a slight boost, and NERF THE HELL OUT OF EVERYTHING ELSE.

Any caster who runs out of useful spells after the first combat of the day is being played poorly. If you really want a spell point system, then pick up psionics.

I don’t mean to bite your head off, but this system needs so much work it’s not funny.

The rolling for skill points wouldn’t be to bad, but be warned that under this system characters will have an average of half their level more skill points than normal. The rogue on the other hand will lose 1.5 skill points per level, and needs something to make up for it.
Mordaedil
12-06-05, 01:02 PM Oh sorry, I forgot to mention. The spells are cast at 5 mana per spell level, making level 9 spells cost 45 mana however cantrips costs 1 mana point.

Also, don't forget you get to add casting modifiers to the mana points. So, let me see...

Sorcerers with 16 cha at level 1, and 21 cha at level 20:
Starts with 15 mana, has max 340 at level 20 with no items.

Clerics with 16 wis at level 1, and 21 wis at level 20:
Starts with 13 mana, has max 300 at level 20 with no items.

Wizards with 16 int at level 1, and 21 int at level 20:
Starts with 11 mana, has max 260 at level 20 with no items.

Bards with 14 cha at level 1, and 19 cha at level 20:
Starts with 8 mana, has max 200 at level 20 with no items.

Paladins with 14 wis at level 1, and 14 wis at level 20:
Starts with 6 mana, has max 120 at level 20 with no items.

Thus:
Sorcerers gets 7 level 9 spells
Clerics gets 6 level 9 spells
Wizards 5 level 9 spells
Bards gets 6 level 6 spells
Paladins gets 6 level 4 spells

And they can't cast anymore. This still doesn't work?
Incognito2me
12-06-05, 01:50 PM Still lots of nerfage... a 20th level wizard could cast those level 9 spells AND a whole lot of other spells (every other level of spells available) in a normal spellcasting system.
Mordaedil
12-06-05, 02:13 PM That is true, but how many of thoose are a wizard truly casting as a level 20 caster? I doubt a caster often uses his level 5 or below spells much besides thoose that have a specific useage, such as knock, once he gets his hands on 6th level and above. In this case I also didn't account for magically enhanced abilities, but remember each time an ability modifier increases, you get your level in mana as bonus. As it is not unusual for a level 20 wizard to have 30 intelligence, we can assume he has about 360 mana points, allowing easily 8 castings of level 9 spells. A lot more than what a wizard normally gets.
Incognito2me
12-06-05, 04:59 PM That's a big assumption, saying wizards won't be using 5th level and lower spells. It's not the fact that they won't use them (I know i'd still be waving around 5th level and possibly lower even then. Prestidigitation will never get old. :D )

I suppose it could work, but i'd probably object to having it used in my campaign all the same.
pquekadl
12-06-05, 05:33 PM I use my lower level slots all the time.

Compared to how many slots per day a level 20 wizard should have a wizard with 8 9th level slots and nothing else is crap. Casters will run out of spells faster with this system than they do normally. It effectively worsens the problem you were trying to fix.
Mordaedil
12-06-05, 06:44 PM Not if the mana regenerates that is. Which is one of the things I know from the Unearthed Arcane, as Amazon.com is offering thoose pages as a preview of thoose rules. Of course, I think thoose rules might a bit off in comparison to my system.

I'm not entirely sure why I made up these rules, they are a true nightmare to use in PnP, so I would never use it there myself. The place I do see a use for it, would be as an alternate rule on Online D&D games, such as NWN. Sadly, it wouldn't work unless I made a game myself using the rules. I just wanted to know if you felt it could work, though I guess I got my answer.

Thanks! You have all truly been helpful!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mordaedil 12-04-05, 08:04 PM	Hi all. Please bear with me, as this is my first post here... I do not own the Unearthed Arcana supplement yet, however I plan to purchase it. In the meantime, I've been heavily occupied with playing D&D on the computer, through games such as Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil and my all-time favorite, Neverwinter Nights. In playing Neverwinter Nights, which allows such a "fun" thing as online servers for people to play against/with eachother, I came to discover that the primary D&D rules often made the casters gods for ten seconds, and then weaklings who had to run or rest. When such a system as the HCR is introduced, an unfun tedium called the waiting game in a corner of a dungeon came into play. In my many days hoping this would somehow be resolved I came upon writing down a magic point system, reflecting the hitpoints system and additionally providing a more defining add-on, with random skill points. Let me know what you think, after reading this next part. Figuring sorcerers would have the most 'power' I concidered giving their class a d12 "Hit Die" in magic, let's say Mana Die. Wizards and druids gain similar amounts of spells per day casting, but clerics and specialized wizards gain even more. So, d10 for clerics and spec. wizards and d8 for druids and general wizards. I figured bards next, would get d6 Mana Die, while rangers and paladins would get a d4 Mana Die. Now, amount of mana is generated from the Mana Die roll result and added with prospective casting ability modifier. Finally, I just wanted to throw something more in there, so they could define their characters better than with a set amount of skill points and move up to more random skill points, and once again use the same idea... This could probably need some tuning, so feedback would be appreciated. This is the table I wrote: Barbarian: HP: d12 SP: d8 MP: - Bard: Arcane(Song, Charisma) HP: d6 SP: d10 MP: d6 Cleric: Divine(Gods, Wisdom) HP: d8 SP: d4 MP: d10 Druid: Divine(Nature, Wisdom) HP: d8 SP: d8 MP: d8 Fighter: HP: d10 SP: d4 MP: - Monk: Divine(Ki, Wisdom) HP: d8 SP: d8 MP: d6 Paladin: Divine(Gods, Wisdom) HP: d10 SP: d4 MP: d4 Ranger: Divine(Nature, Wisdom) HP: d8 SP: d10 MP: d4 Rogue: HP: d6 SP: d12 MP: - Sorcerer: Arcane(Spirit, Charisma) HP: d4 SP: d4 MP: d12 Wizard: Arcane(Knowledge, Intelligence) HP: d4 SP: d4 MP: d8 Wizard Specialist: Arcane(Knowledge, Intelligence) HP: d4 SP: d4 MP: d10 As you may have noticed, I gave the monk Mana Die. I figured their abilities could be somewhat limited to their Ki, and not just constantly useful. Unsure how to tackle this, but these are things I'd like comments on. Thank you for reading this far.
Mordaedil 12-05-05, 09:41 AM	No comments?
pquekadl 12-05-05, 05:20 PM	Current spell levels per day at level 20 Sorcerer: 270 Wizard: 180 Cleric: 240 Druid: 195 Bard: 84 Ranger and Paladin: 30 The above calculations don't include 0 lvl spells or bonus spells. On a side note, your system doesn't address either of those. Spell levels at lvl 20 using your system (assuming average roles) Sorcerer: 130 Wizard and Druid: 90 Clerics and spec. Wizards: 110 Bard: 70 Ranger and Paladin: 50 In conclusion, this system will overpower the ranger and paladin, give the bard a slight boost, and NERF THE HELL OUT OF EVERYTHING ELSE. Any caster who runs out of useful spells after the first combat of the day is being played poorly. If you really want a spell point system, then pick up psionics. I don’t mean to bite your head off, but this system needs so much work it’s not funny. The rolling for skill points wouldn’t be to bad, but be warned that under this system characters will have an average of half their level more skill points than normal. The rogue on the other hand will lose 1.5 skill points per level, and needs something to make up for it.
Mordaedil 12-06-05, 01:02 PM	Oh sorry, I forgot to mention. The spells are cast at 5 mana per spell level, making level 9 spells cost 45 mana however cantrips costs 1 mana point. Also, don't forget you get to add casting modifiers to the mana points. So, let me see... Sorcerers with 16 cha at level 1, and 21 cha at level 20: Starts with 15 mana, has max 340 at level 20 with no items. Clerics with 16 wis at level 1, and 21 wis at level 20: Starts with 13 mana, has max 300 at level 20 with no items. Wizards with 16 int at level 1, and 21 int at level 20: Starts with 11 mana, has max 260 at level 20 with no items. Bards with 14 cha at level 1, and 19 cha at level 20: Starts with 8 mana, has max 200 at level 20 with no items. Paladins with 14 wis at level 1, and 14 wis at level 20: Starts with 6 mana, has max 120 at level 20 with no items. Thus: Sorcerers gets 7 level 9 spells Clerics gets 6 level 9 spells Wizards 5 level 9 spells Bards gets 6 level 6 spells Paladins gets 6 level 4 spells And they can't cast anymore. This still doesn't work?
Incognito2me 12-06-05, 01:50 PM	Still lots of nerfage... a 20th level wizard could cast those level 9 spells AND a whole lot of other spells (every other level of spells available) in a normal spellcasting system.
Mordaedil 12-06-05, 02:13 PM	That is true, but how many of thoose are a wizard truly casting as a level 20 caster? I doubt a caster often uses his level 5 or below spells much besides thoose that have a specific useage, such as knock, once he gets his hands on 6th level and above. In this case I also didn't account for magically enhanced abilities, but remember each time an ability modifier increases, you get your level in mana as bonus. As it is not unusual for a level 20 wizard to have 30 intelligence, we can assume he has about 360 mana points, allowing easily 8 castings of level 9 spells. A lot more than what a wizard normally gets.
Incognito2me 12-06-05, 04:59 PM	That's a big assumption, saying wizards won't be using 5th level and lower spells. It's not the fact that they won't use them (I know i'd still be waving around 5th level and possibly lower even then. Prestidigitation will never get old. :D ) I suppose it could work, but i'd probably object to having it used in my campaign all the same.
pquekadl 12-06-05, 05:33 PM	I use my lower level slots all the time. Compared to how many slots per day a level 20 wizard should have a wizard with 8 9th level slots and nothing else is crap. Casters will run out of spells faster with this system than they do normally. It effectively worsens the problem you were trying to fix.
Mordaedil 12-06-05, 06:44 PM	Not if the mana regenerates that is. Which is one of the things I know from the Unearthed Arcane, as Amazon.com is offering thoose pages as a preview of thoose rules. Of course, I think thoose rules might a bit off in comparison to my system. I'm not entirely sure why I made up these rules, they are a true nightmare to use in PnP, so I would never use it there myself. The place I do see a use for it, would be as an alternate rule on Online D&D games, such as NWN. Sadly, it wouldn't work unless I made a game myself using the rules. I just wanted to know if you felt it could work, though I guess I got my answer. Thanks! You have all truly been helpful!