Alternate Turn Undead rules - Request for comments [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternate Turn Undead rules - Request for comments [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nom
06-14-04, 11:06 PM Several people (not least Sean K. Reynolds (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/opinions/turningundead.html)) have suggested that the existing Turn Undead mechanic is out of step with the rest of the d20 mechanics.

Here's a stab at an alternative.

A cleric can attempt to turn up to 2d6 + cleric level + Cha modifier HD of undead, or a minimum of 1 creature. Undead with fewest HD are affected first. Among undead with equal HD, those closest to the cleric are affected first. Ties are determined randomly (or by another suitable method). Already turned undead are ignored unless the cleric chooses to include them.

Each target undead must resist turning or be turned. The DC is 10 + cleric level + Cha modifier. The target undead may add their HD to the roll.

If the undead fails its roll by 10 or more, it is destroyed.

Basically, it uses the same mechanic as sleep, except the Will save is replaced by a caster level vs HD check. I suppose I could use a Will save vs DC 10 + cleric level / 2 + Cha, the same as for a supernatural ability.

Thoughts?
Seeker95
06-15-04, 07:59 AM An element I disagree with (meaning: I would change if I were in charge) in BOTH the original and the new version is the "lowest level affected first" clause.

If the cleric is facing a vampire lord and thirty of his skeleton and zombie minions, why wouldn't he want to target just the BBEG?

On the proposed change, the problem I see with this is that at higher levels, the opponents can avoid turning more easily than with current methods. The save tends to remain constant (since cleric level and "appropriate" primary opponent HD scale equivalently).
dantedarkstar
06-15-04, 08:18 AM Personally I wouldn't have problems with

d20+cleric level+Cha modifier vs 10+HD+Wis modifier

Why ?

1.It has to be cleric level, NOT caster level (since it's class ability, not spellcasting).
I realize there was cleric level written, but few lines further it was referred to as caster level. I just point out it has to be cleric level, absolutely no caster level.
2.Undead has to add some ability modifier too, or at very high levels the turning will get automatic because ability modifiers constantly increase, giving one side bonus while another nothing.
3.Will save vs DC 10+half level+Cha mod gives possibility of turning far too powerful undead, but will have significantly lessened efficiency at higher levels.

What could be bad is the possibility of turning far more powerful undead that you normally could. No, I don't have really problem with that.

As for commanding/destroying, fail by 10 is not good also, since you could concievably get control of creature more powerful than you. I would still limit destruction/control to half HD of cleric. If you have that few, you get controlled/destroyed if clerics succeeds. Similiar to many other HD-dependant effects.
Nom
06-15-04, 10:07 AM Yeah, definitely cleric level. For a cleric it's the same, but caster level causes problems when we deal with PrCs or Paladins (level -3 vs level / 2).

The advantage of Will save with DC 10 + level/2 + Cha is that it uses a pre-existing mechanic with a known save. The notable disadvantage is that it makes the die roll more valuable and level/HD less valuable. It also slightly weakens undead with class levels with a poor will save (undead HD have a good will save).

I don't think "fail by 10" is an overly problematic mechanic. In order to fail by 10, the undead needs to have a Will save that is at least 11 points lower than the cleric (or perhaps roll a natural 1). If anything, "fail by 10" is too weak.

Example: Consider an Owlbear skeleton (MM pg 226) against a 5th level and 10th level cleric respectively, and assume a +2 Cha bonus for the cleric.

Existing rules:
* At 5th, turning requires a 10 or better, which means 8 or better (65%) on the die.
* At 10th, turning is automatic (level -4 is still 6), as is destruction.

Will save:
* At 5th, turning DC is 14, against a +4 Will: 45% chance to fail the save. Destruction is impossible (except a natural 1).
* At 10th, turning DC is 17, against a +4 Will: 60% chance to fail the save. Destruction on 1-2 (10%).

Level check:
* At 5th, turning DC is 17, against 5 HD (Wis is +0): 55% chance to fail the check. Destruction on 1 (5%).
* At 10th, turning DC is 22, against 5 HD: 80% chance to fail the check. Destruction on 1-6 (30%).
An element I disagree with (meaning: I would change if I were in charge) in BOTH the original and the new version is the "lowest level affected first" clause.

If the cleric is facing a vampire lord and thirty of his skeleton and zombie minions, why wouldn't he want to target just the BBEG?A good question. I think the main reason is meta-game: to force characters fighting a BBEG undead + spawn to turn/kill the spawn first rather than just going for the big boss and then mopping up the minions.
On the proposed change, the problem I see with this is that at higher levels, the opponents can avoid turning more easily than with current methods. The save tends to remain constant (since cleric level and "appropriate" primary opponent HD scale equivalently).I don't think this is true. Current methods can only turn up to level +4, with an expected result of level +1. A quick skim of the MM reveals that most undead have more HD than their CR, and many have turn resistance on top of this. If anything, a DC check is more likely to affect high level undead, since the range is level -10 +Cha to level +10 +Cha.

Another difference is that the Cleric's result is static and the targets' results are variable. Under the current system, a level 7 cleric trying to turn two wraiths (CR 5, HD 5 / 7 with turn resistance) will turn either both (on a d20 roll of 8+, assuming +2 Cha) or neither. If each undead makes the check, it's possible that one of each will be turned.
primemover003
06-15-04, 04:31 PM Originally posted by Seeker95
An element I disagree with (meaning: I would change if I were in charge) in BOTH the original and the new version is the "lowest level affected first" clause.

If the cleric is facing a vampire lord and thirty of his skeleton and zombie minions, why wouldn't he want to target just the BBEG?

Well Turns aren't targetted thinghs... it's a burst. So it would effect closest first. As for weakest first... The higher HD undead is the real challenge of the encounter. To target them first is anti-climatic.
Nom
06-27-04, 09:34 AM Ok, here's the wording of the rule I'm going to try in my game. Anyone see any glaring errors or potential confusions?
Turn undead is a supernatural ability. Area of effect is a 60 ft. burst. Up to 2d6 + cleric level + Cha modifier HD of hostile undead in the area of effect are affected. Undead with fewest HD are affected first. If two or more undead have the same HD then those closest to the cleric are affected first. Each affected undead must make a Will save against a DC of cleric level / 2 + Cha modifier. Undead that fail must flee. Undead that fail by 5 or more or roll a natural '1' must make a second Will save (against the same DC) or be destroyed. An undead's turn resistance (if any) adds to the Will save but not to HD calculations.

Undead that may be considered friendly to the cleric or have already been turned are not considered potential targets unless the cleric deliberately chooses to include them; this decision may be made separately for each non-hostile undead in the area of effect.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nom 06-14-04, 11:06 PM	Several people (not least Sean K. Reynolds (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/opinions/turningundead.html)) have suggested that the existing Turn Undead mechanic is out of step with the rest of the d20 mechanics. Here's a stab at an alternative. A cleric can attempt to turn up to 2d6 + cleric level + Cha modifier HD of undead, or a minimum of 1 creature. Undead with fewest HD are affected first. Among undead with equal HD, those closest to the cleric are affected first. Ties are determined randomly (or by another suitable method). Already turned undead are ignored unless the cleric chooses to include them. Each target undead must resist turning or be turned. The DC is 10 + cleric level + Cha modifier. The target undead may add their HD to the roll. If the undead fails its roll by 10 or more, it is destroyed. Basically, it uses the same mechanic as sleep, except the Will save is replaced by a caster level vs HD check. I suppose I could use a Will save vs DC 10 + cleric level / 2 + Cha, the same as for a supernatural ability. Thoughts?
Seeker95 06-15-04, 07:59 AM	An element I disagree with (meaning: I would change if I were in charge) in BOTH the original and the new version is the "lowest level affected first" clause. If the cleric is facing a vampire lord and thirty of his skeleton and zombie minions, why wouldn't he want to target just the BBEG? On the proposed change, the problem I see with this is that at higher levels, the opponents can avoid turning more easily than with current methods. The save tends to remain constant (since cleric level and "appropriate" primary opponent HD scale equivalently).
dantedarkstar 06-15-04, 08:18 AM	Personally I wouldn't have problems with d20+cleric level+Cha modifier vs 10+HD+Wis modifier Why ? 1.It has to be cleric level, NOT caster level (since it's class ability, not spellcasting). I realize there was cleric level written, but few lines further it was referred to as caster level. I just point out it has to be cleric level, absolutely no caster level. 2.Undead has to add some ability modifier too, or at very high levels the turning will get automatic because ability modifiers constantly increase, giving one side bonus while another nothing. 3.Will save vs DC 10+half level+Cha mod gives possibility of turning far too powerful undead, but will have significantly lessened efficiency at higher levels. What could be bad is the possibility of turning far more powerful undead that you normally could. No, I don't have really problem with that. As for commanding/destroying, fail by 10 is not good also, since you could concievably get control of creature more powerful than you. I would still limit destruction/control to half HD of cleric. If you have that few, you get controlled/destroyed if clerics succeeds. Similiar to many other HD-dependant effects.
Nom 06-15-04, 10:07 AM	Yeah, definitely cleric level. For a cleric it's the same, but caster level causes problems when we deal with PrCs or Paladins (level -3 vs level / 2). The advantage of Will save with DC 10 + level/2 + Cha is that it uses a pre-existing mechanic with a known save. The notable disadvantage is that it makes the die roll more valuable and level/HD less valuable. It also slightly weakens undead with class levels with a poor will save (undead HD have a good will save). I don't think "fail by 10" is an overly problematic mechanic. In order to fail by 10, the undead needs to have a Will save that is at least 11 points lower than the cleric (or perhaps roll a natural 1). If anything, "fail by 10" is too weak. Example: Consider an Owlbear skeleton (MM pg 226) against a 5th level and 10th level cleric respectively, and assume a +2 Cha bonus for the cleric. Existing rules: * At 5th, turning requires a 10 or better, which means 8 or better (65%) on the die. * At 10th, turning is automatic (level -4 is still 6), as is destruction. Will save: * At 5th, turning DC is 14, against a +4 Will: 45% chance to fail the save. Destruction is impossible (except a natural 1). * At 10th, turning DC is 17, against a +4 Will: 60% chance to fail the save. Destruction on 1-2 (10%). Level check: * At 5th, turning DC is 17, against 5 HD (Wis is +0): 55% chance to fail the check. Destruction on 1 (5%). * At 10th, turning DC is 22, against 5 HD: 80% chance to fail the check. Destruction on 1-6 (30%). An element I disagree with (meaning: I would change if I were in charge) in BOTH the original and the new version is the "lowest level affected first" clause. If the cleric is facing a vampire lord and thirty of his skeleton and zombie minions, why wouldn't he want to target just the BBEG?A good question. I think the main reason is meta-game: to force characters fighting a BBEG undead + spawn to turn/kill the spawn first rather than just going for the big boss and then mopping up the minions. On the proposed change, the problem I see with this is that at higher levels, the opponents can avoid turning more easily than with current methods. The save tends to remain constant (since cleric level and "appropriate" primary opponent HD scale equivalently).I don't think this is true. Current methods can only turn up to level +4, with an expected result of level +1. A quick skim of the MM reveals that most undead have more HD than their CR, and many have turn resistance on top of this. If anything, a DC check is more likely to affect high level undead, since the range is level -10 +Cha to level +10 +Cha. Another difference is that the Cleric's result is static and the targets' results are variable. Under the current system, a level 7 cleric trying to turn two wraiths (CR 5, HD 5 / 7 with turn resistance) will turn either both (on a d20 roll of 8+, assuming +2 Cha) or neither. If each undead makes the check, it's possible that one of each will be turned.
primemover003 06-15-04, 04:31 PM	Originally posted by Seeker95 An element I disagree with (meaning: I would change if I were in charge) in BOTH the original and the new version is the "lowest level affected first" clause. If the cleric is facing a vampire lord and thirty of his skeleton and zombie minions, why wouldn't he want to target just the BBEG? Well Turns aren't targetted thinghs... it's a burst. So it would effect closest first. As for weakest first... The higher HD undead is the real challenge of the encounter. To target them first is anti-climatic.
Nom 06-27-04, 09:34 AM	Ok, here's the wording of the rule I'm going to try in my game. Anyone see any glaring errors or potential confusions? Turn undead is a supernatural ability. Area of effect is a 60 ft. burst. Up to 2d6 + cleric level + Cha modifier HD of hostile undead in the area of effect are affected. Undead with fewest HD are affected first. If two or more undead have the same HD then those closest to the cleric are affected first. Each affected undead must make a Will save against a DC of cleric level / 2 + Cha modifier. Undead that fail must flee. Undead that fail by 5 or more or roll a natural '1' must make a second Will save (against the same DC) or be destroyed. An undead's turn resistance (if any) adds to the Will save but not to HD calculations. Undead that may be considered friendly to the cleric or have already been turned are not considered potential targets unless the cleric deliberately chooses to include them; this decision may be made separately for each non-hostile undead in the area of effect.