Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zulkir of Abjuration 12-31-04, 11:43 PM	I don't like the way that Epic spells are set up. I have made an alternative, one that actually makes sense in FR. Mystra set up the band on 10+ spells after the Fall of Netheril to prevent overpowered spells from hurting the world or the Weave (or her). This made a major problem for high level casters that, with this ban, have reached the limits of mortal power. The Arcanists who fled to Halruaa began to research new ways to expand their power. This is what most historians believe began research into Circle Magic, Cooperative Casting, Twin Spells, and other metamagics. This research eventually led to a break through that approached the power of the Old Magiks. In the technique the caster would combine spells of a similar nature and twist them to magnify one another, creating something new and enormously powerful. The way it works is the caster must cast all the component spells. Instead of activating the spells combine once they are all cast. This is beyond the normal capabilities of a spell caster and thus the caster must make a Spellcraft check equal to the total number of spell levels used (+1 for cantrips) plus or minus any special modifications. If the caster fails the check he takes backlash ability damage as a result of the magic fizziling. The casting is considered continous, so if the casting is interupted all spells involved are lost. For Example: Kossuth's Fiesty Lizzard Component Spells: Summon Monster I-IX, Gate Spellcraft DC: 47 Failure Damage: 1d4 Wis, 1d4 Con A Half-Fire Elemental Great Red Wyrm is summoned to fight for the caster as per Summon Monster. This may be a little bit unbalanced, but you get the idea. The caster may have to add in the Planner Binding spells as well, or the age of the dragon may be reduced. Casting this ritual is a major risk. Once this ritual is cast the caster looses a spell at every spell level and an extra one at level 9. The caster also risks serious ability score damage if he fails. However this spell is still worth the risk. If you don't use Epic skill rules, this spell can't be cast by anyone under 40 (rough estimate). More Examples: Shoon's Mortal Bane CS: Finger of Death, Circle of Death, Power Word: Kill, Wail of the Banshee, DC: 30 Failure: 1d6 STR, 1d8 WIS Regardless of failure or success the intense Necromatic magic involved drains 2d4 CON damage. If the caster dies from this damage then he becomes a vampire. Undead are obviously immune, this is intentional because they are immune to death magic as well. This spell is the most powerful death spell known on Faerun. One creature is targeted. Any creature with less than 100 hp and/or 10 hit-die dies automaticly. To avoid death the target must make a Will, Fort, and Reflex saves. If the target makes all three saves the target still takes damage equal to (caster level)d4. Immunity to death magic means the target is considered to make the 3 saves. Those who die by this ritual become vampires bound to the caster. Aznar Thrul's Big Boom CS: one spell of each level with the Fire descripter, Dimension Door DC: 41 Failure: 3d4 CON This ritual was a gift from Kossuth. It takes a piece of the Plane of Fire and shapes it into a destructive blast. As the Fireball spell except that the damage done is (caster level)d10, the radius is (caster level)*10ft, and no save. Because the fire comes from the hottest region of the Plane of Fire and is divine creatures native to the Plane of Fire and immune to fire take half damage. Creatures immune to fire not from the Plane of Fire take full damage, and no fire resistance is applicable. Creatures vulnerable to Fire take *4 damage. Zalathorm's Omnipotent Eye CS: one spell of each level of the Divination School DC: 38 Failure: 1d6 Wis The caster sees all in all directions in a 100ft radius. The caster sees through all non-ritual illusions, transmutations, otherwise magical, and mundane disguises. The name, gender, creature type (Fey, Undead, ect.), age, alignment, plane of origin, aproximate power, and magical protections are all known to the caster. The caster is aware of magical fields in the area and their exact effects. The abilities and number of charges of all non-artifact items in the area are known. The caster gains a +5 insight bonus to all rolls. Akhlaur's Legion of the Fallen CS: Summon Undead I-IX, Animate Dead, Wish DC: 52 Failure: 2d4 Wis This spell transforms 10*(caster level) number of corpses into zombies or skeletons as per animate undead. They remain animated for a number of days equal to caster level. Deus ex Machina CS: two spells of each level DC: 30 (lessened) Failure: 1d4 each stat Special: Casting time: 1 action This spell grants the caster three wishes (or instead of a wish two lesser wishes) as free actions each round for the next three rounds. All effects disapear within a number of days equal to caster level. Elminster's Inpolite Unwelcomeing CS: Banishment, Dismissal, Gate, Dimensional Anchor DC: 28 Failure: 1d4 Int This ritual opens a Gate and forces all Outsiders and summoned creatures in the area (1 mile* cater level radius) back to their homeplane or dismisses them. No save. Creatures banished this way can not return for a year and a day. Elminster made this after the tragedy of Myth Drannor so that no army from another plane could harm Troil again. Some believe that this ritual could banish an avatar or a demigod if it was focued on the one being. Telamont's Shadow World CS: 15 spells with the shadow descripter, Wish DC: 100 (increased) Failure: 1d12 Wis, 1d12 Con This was a gift to Telamont from Shar when he came to the Prime Material. This spell temorarily merges part (1 mile radius centered on caster) of the current plane with the Shadow Deep Void (a mysterious region in the heart of the Shadow Plane that merges with parts of the Abyss). No light is exists. Only the caster can see. Even Devils can not see through the true darkness. The caster can use Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration at will inside the sphere. All spells with the shadow descripter are given a +10 to caster level. Creatures not protected when the spell ends maybe transported to the Demi Plane of Shadows when the spell ends. The spell ends after 1 hour/caster level. This should give you a general idea of what I am thinking about. Inorder to cast these spells the caster must take the Ritual Casting spell. To learn a ritual the caster must use a skill point (like learning a language). The rules are obviously incomplete, but I am working on it. What do you think?
Ellena 01-01-05, 06:29 AM	at a glance the skillpoint requirment is unfair. Wizards have skillpoints otu the wazoo. Sorcerors, on the other hand, can barely manage their core skills ( under point buy they *HAVE* to be human just to have their class' 3 essential skills)
Aracor 01-01-05, 10:32 AM	Sorcerors, on the other hand, can barely manage their core skills ( under point buy they *HAVE* to be human just to have their class' 3 essential skills) Wha? I'm confuzzled. In point buy, you can choose exactly what to put where. If you want more skill points, you can simply buy a higher intelligence. You might be saying that you CHOOSE to only put a few points into intelligence, but that's your choice. Keep in mind that you don't necessarily need all of your skills maxed, either. Once again, that's just a choice that most people choose to make. ~Aracor
Zulkir of Abjuration 01-01-05, 05:13 PM	Hmmm...I admit when I was making this I was thinking of wizards, but I ment this for all casters. The reason it takes skill to learn a ritual is because a ritual is so very complex. The caster has to understand the component spells and the nature of magic itself so completely that its on par with learning a language. The way I thought of it a caster would would only know a few rituals. A caster would not go around collecting them like they do spells. A ritual is the trump card of 25+ level archmages. A caster should only know one ritual for every five levels beyond 20. Larloch who seperates with artifacts like they are nothing should only have four rituals. Elminster should have two or three (because he is a Chosen). Manshoon should have one. Gromph and Vanderghast should know none. Think about that. Sorcerors also have an incredible advantage with rituals as they don't have to prepare for them. Think about how redundant it is for a wizard to go to battle with Summon Monster I-IX and Gate...You could say that its worse for a sorceror, but this means a sorceror could cast the ritual multiple times a day without breaking a sweat. Imagine a level 30 sorceror with two Half Fire Elemental Great Red Wyrms...It gets easier for sorcerors when they have rituals like Zalathorm's Omnipotent Eye where they need one Divination at each level. A ritual like Deus ex Machina has Sorceror all over it. That would just be evil. Cast three DeM's to use almost the spells per day. That gives you 27 wishes without an XP cost (the effects are temporary). Come to think of it their should be a way to limit how many times a day a caster can cast a ritual. Maybe all rituals should do ability score damage. Failure doubles the damage. If it is still a problem the character could take a feat. The feat should give the chracter the spell, ability score damage reduction, reduced spellcraft DC, ect. Heres some more ideas... Vassal of Lolth CS: Gate, Summon Monster IX, Web, Darkness, Wish/Miracle DC: 32 Damage: 1d6 Char This ritual is used by clerics and wizards in Lolth's service. It merges the material and the Demon Web Pits temporarily. The area of 1 mile/caster level radius from the point of casting is affected by the Darkness and Web spells. The caster has all the abilities of the Half-Demon and Drider templates while in the area. If the caster leaves the spell ends. The spell lasts for one day/caster level. The caster controls several servents of Lolth including two Fiendish Hudge Monstorous Spiders, two demon spiders (i forget their names but they are true demons), and one yotchol. Servents of Lolth summoned in the area stay till the spell ends. Any non Lolthite casting this spell will have the servents of Lolth turn on her. Priestesses in the area may be given missions to kill the caster. If a male casts this spell the male may die, may left alone, or most likely be transported to the Demon Web Pits to be judged by Lolth. The male caster may be transformed into a drider and sent into the Underdark, join the harem/body guard of Lolth as a half-demon/drider with all previous abilites, may be tortured, could receive a gift, or what ever else The Spider Queen decides. Indestructable Chains of Binding and Imprionment of Azuth CS: Imprisonment, Prismatic Sphere, Anti-Magic Field, Forcecage, Spell Turning, Wish, Dimensional Lock, Soul Bind, Temporal Statis, Binding, Alarm DC: 83 Failure: Spell Being Reversed on the caster This ritual was used by Azuth to bind Sevarus. The ritual is a mulilayered, redundant imprisonment spell with protections of its own. The target is trapped in two gems. The caster can communicate with the imprisoned creature. Any comand given to it carries with it a geas and suggestion as if cast by the caster. The caster is aware of anyone within 10ft of the gems. To break the ritual the breaker must unite the two gems. The gems will fuse when the imprioned creature's name is called. The breaker then must bypass the Spell Turning, Anti-Magic Field, Prismatic Sphere, Dimensional Lock, Forcecage, Binding, Imprionment, Soul Bind, and Temporal Statis in that order as per their spell descriptions. To finalize the breaking the breaker must cast Wish and say the password that the caster has designated. The unimprisoned prisoner will be reimprioned unless the gem is destroyed in a Sphere of Annihilation within one lunar cycle. Azuth created this spell when he was the mortal Magister. Azuth thought this spell truely unbreakable. Sevarus discovered the process through divination, and proved him wrong by freeding one of Azuth's original enemies. This was what started their vendetta.
Zitchas 01-01-05, 05:43 PM	I would say that this is a good addition, on top of the current system. The current epic spell casting system tends to require sacrifices (Usually XP and/or costly components), and your sytem using less complex and quite widely available spells meshed together to form epic equivalent spells, with associated risks and penalties. One thing you don't make overly clear is concerning the stat damage. Is that permenent, semi permenent (lasts untill you recieve heal or some similar magical healing), long term temporary (just untill you get the chance to rest) or temporary (lasts for a couple mins to an hour or two). I think having them as semi permenent (for severe cases) and various degrees of temporary are quite suitable. I don't think they're quite powerfull enough to require you to run a serious risk of suffering 2d4 permement con damage. A f air number of arcane spell casters would have trouble taking that much temporary damage, let alone permenent. Another option to include is what happnes when an Epic spell is woven into the ritual? Along the same lines, what about multiple Epic spells? Something along the lines of a minor destructive epic spell (Vengefull Gaze of the Gods without the backlash penalty) combined with an epic abjuration spell to create an extremely damaging effect that would normally rage over a rather large area, except contained and concentrated within this sphere. Usefull for picking out extremely tough small groups of oponents in difficult situations (in the middle of a crowd of hostages, or other things one doesn't want damaged), or maybe using it to create a time delayed version of the former destructive spell... Another good option is to add is fatigue, exhaustion, daze, and similar effects. While some of those are long term or preparatory spells, things like the Aznar Thrul's Big Boom are the sort of spells reserved for special ocasions and/or finishing off oponents. As such, things like this tend to be the "final blow", and tend to get a bit more effort put into them by the caster, and consequently are fatigued for a bit afterwards. On a similar vein, the allseeing eye spell would be a very good candidate for a short duration daze. Suddenly knowing almost everything about everything within 1000' of you is going to distract you more than a bit from things happening in the here and now. The +5 circumstantial bonus will counteract the penalties of being dazed or distracted, for the most part. Of course, once it wears off a minute or two later the caster's going to have a very strong upperhand, due to their very comprehensive knowledge.
Zulkir of Abjuration 01-01-05, 08:14 PM	Thanks for the replies. I think I didn't make something clear. All the components of the spells involved are components of the ritual. So for example Azuth's Little Jail has quite a lot of components. But yes, most rituals don't have any components. All stat damage is temporary as per the DMG. Sorry for not making it clear. The reason that Shoon's Mortal Bane does so much CON damage is to one, discourage nonundead from using it a lot (as a roleplaying thing), have the element of "realism" where this spell has such tremendous power that it damages everything it touches, and finally to force casters to protect themselves from this spell. Think about that. The spells are so powerful that preparations must be made to protect the caster (wish con +1, endurance, ect.). That is just plane cool and makes them more of a big deal, a trump card instead of another fireball. Says a lot about what level you are playing at. I like your idea with the fatigue and daze. I was thinking of representing kind of the same thing but in stat damage. Your way though. Putting Epic Spells in the rituals could be interesting, certainly powerful. I haven't considered using rituals to reduce the power of a spell before. Interesting implications.
Zitchas 01-01-05, 11:39 PM	I wasn't really thinking of reducing the power, really, but instead concentrating it. Take Vengefull Gaze of the Gods. Probably the ultimate "Let's-do-lots-of-damage" type spell. Given that we're SUPOSED to be creative with epic spells, create a version that's more along the lines of a supermassive fireball, except that isn't big enough to start causing backlashs at the caster. Now, such a spell would be extremely usefull for dealing with armies, even high level creature armies, wouldn't it? (I know it certainly is for me). Now, I happen to come across a situation that needs such insane levels of power, but I need to concentrate it. By combining my custom made army killer with either an epic abjuration type spell and some lower level abjurations (to modify the original abjuration to make it a containment instead of a shield)... Presto, the original is now concentrated. Most likely doing even more damage, but in a much more restricted area. On top of that, since there's a shield keeping everything in, NPCs with evasion probably won't get their full saves, since Along the same lines of thought, use the abjuration spells to create a tube containing the destructive spell, with the open ends on each side facing into the wall on either side in a hall or doorway (or ceiling and floor) for a pretty good way to blow out corridors... It's a prime method of diversifying the spell structure, and also a good way of diversifying those Epic spells we pay so much to research. When you really start thinking about it, the posibilities are endless... An entirely new field of research! *grin* I'm liking this idea more and more as I think about it. Although it could very well be a DM's nightmare, as the rule system doesn't have any real guidelines to deal with it: Note to self(and others): Think up a bunch of common such combinations and clear with DM about effects and costs before hand...
Zulkir of Abjuration 01-02-05, 12:34 AM	Rituals that are a little different... Broken Phobia CS: Cause Fear, Scare, Fear, Phatasmal Killer, Symbol of Fear, Weird DC: 25 Damage: 1d4 Wis Special: Material: Ashes from a being killed by Phantasmal Killer (or Weird) while under a fear effect They say that you can see something so scary that nothing will scare you ever again. That is the purpose of this ritual. The caster must first make a Will save or become frightened. If the person becomes frightened they recieve a -4 to saves against Phantasmal Killer. The caster then must survive a Phantasmal Killer spell. If the caster survives he is insane. The caster makes a Will save each day to relieve the insanity. Once the insanity is cured the caster is immune to all fear effects. The caster understands fear so well that a caster may choose to inflict a fear effect when ever he makes a successful intimidate check. The caster gains a +2 caster level and insight bonus to all fear effects.
Zulkir of Abjuration 01-02-05, 09:37 PM	Halaster's Everlive CS: False Life, Wish, Clone, Soul Bind, Teleport, Limited Wish, Water Breathing, Simularcum DC: 50 Damage: 3d4 Con damage This ritual is what gives Halaster of Undermountain his longevity. The caster is now immune to aging, drowning, and hunger. The caster's soul is transplanted into a gem so that he will not pass into the outerplanes when he dies, can not have his soul stolen, or harmed by death magic. Destroying the gem returns the soul to the caster. If the caster's hp reaches zero or less he instantly gains 50 temporary hit points and a +6 enchantment bonus to constitution. The hp and constitution faids at a rate of 1/day and can not be healed. This effect can happen once per day. If the caster dies, a clone is activated at a predetermined location. This effect can be activated once per tenday. If the caster dies again the caster is affected by a reincarnation into a predetermined form at a predetermined location. The caster can select any form with an LA equal to his or less. A simularcum is released from the site his clone was released. This effect can be activated once per month. If the caster dies again he is stabalized at 0 hitpoints and teleported to a predetermined location. At each predetermined location the caster must have his symbol as per arcane mark written in his own blood at least 3ft by 3 ft.
Atarmalake Stormspire 01-03-05, 11:12 AM	I dont see this working all that well with the Sorcerers class... What sorcerer is going to have access to 'Summon Monster I-IX, Gate' or 'Summon Undead I-IX, Animate Dead, Wish' Unless the Sorc is only specializing in that area of expertise they will not have the ability to work these extra strong rituals. Just my 2 cents :twocents: Lake
Zitchas 01-03-05, 12:17 PM	Some of those most deffinitly wouldn't work too well, no. But some of them could work very well indeed. Just like in regular spells, the sorcerer will have the advantage in being able to cast more of them, but the wizard will have the advantage of vocabulary. Specialist wizards are the ones who will truly benefit from this, although most pure wizards (ones who don't diversify off into ES or miscelaneous other cool, powerfull PrCs that don't emphasise pure casting ability and power.
Zulkir of Abjuration 01-03-05, 04:11 PM	Its true that some of these would be very hard for a sorceror to cast. Remmeber that roleplaying wise these are things that are more precious than artifacts. In the game world the amount that a wizard has should be on par with what a sorceror can cast. But sometimes roleplaying isn't good enough. One problem that arrises with this new system is that the current model of spell progression in all classes uses epic spells. They learn spell slots all the way up to 20th and then it just stops. This is one reason that I didn't like Epic Spells. In a spell progression that assumes rituals and metamagiced spells as the 20+ weapons of spell casters the spell casters continue to get spell slots in low levels and also get free 9+ slots. This means that a 30th level caster can cast more rituals than a 20th level caster. That would not happen under the previous spell slot progression. When a sorceror reaches 20th level spell selection would then be geared to being able to cast rituals since those low level slots are now irrelevent. Under this system spell caster would through metamagiced high level spells at each other and a few powerful rituals come in to play every now and then. Another solution is a caster could use scrolls to cast rituals. This would give great flexability, but would also mean that the sorceror is reliant on another for the scrolls. A possible option that already exists is that the caster could use limited wish and wish to simulate the spells he is missing. Expensive in xp, but still possible. A final option is giving the caster options of spells. Maybe a caster could subsitute come create undead spells for summon undead or planar binding for summon monster.
Zitchas 01-05-05, 01:40 PM	So under this revised system, after surpassing 20th, spell casting classes would continue to gain spells of all levels, but at a reduced rate. For example, at 20th you also get +1 spell slots in lvl 0 spells. At 21st you get +1 in lvl 1 spells, at 22nd you get +1 in 2nd, etc. Thus by 29th level, you have one more spell slot of each level than a 19th level caster does. (ignoring bonus spells from PrCs, Int, items, etc) It's not a great progression, but it does add to your spellcasting power and repetoire as well. For socerers, one would assume that they would get the extra slot and possibly an extra spell "known" per level, although this seems significantly too powerfull compared to the wizard. Maybe an extra spell known at each odd level, of the apropriate level to the spell slot gained. If progressing farther, they gain the extra spell on the even levels for 30 through 39. Another question: Would these ritual spells count require a 20 int (or cha, as apropriate to the class?). (As per epic spells) If they were cast co-operatively, would the end result apply to the caster "in control"? And who would that be? The caster in the group who cast the highest level contributing spell, or any designated member? Furthur, would the ability score requirement apply to each member of the group, or only to the "lead"? I would assume that the reqs would apply to each member as the spell they cast (eg. Someone contributing a lvl 1 spell only needs 11), with the epic requirements being on the leader. Another idea is adding in some feats specific to rituals. Namely two-three that come to mind, based heavily on the counterspelling feats. Ritual Substitution: When casting a ritual you may substitute a spell of the same school of higher level. This does not affect the ritual DC or end effect. Improved Ritual Subsitution: When casting a ritual you may substitue a spell of the same school of the same level or of a higher level. This does not affect the ritual DC or end effect. Requires Ritual Substitution. Epic Ritual Substitution: When casting a ritual you may substitute any spell of the same level or of a higher level. This does not affect the ritual DC or the end effect. Requires Improved Ritual Substitution For example, casting the Fiesty lizard, it's quite understandable that a sorcerer may not have bothered to keep Monster Summoning I and II around, so with the 1st feat he could subsitute two castings of Monster Summoning III in for them. Likewise a wizard who doesn't want to memorize those two spells. Linear progression of spells like this is what I meant by Type. Although now I'm thinking that many/most spells don't have obvious progressions like that, so it might be best to just leave it with "school" instead of type and school. Edit: now changed to just school for simplicity. Although changing it like that now makes the 3rd feat a bit too powerfull, in my opinion. With the first two it opens a lot of them up to socrerers and wizards with low spell vocabularies, but with all three it opens ALL the rituals up to them. I'm thinking limit it to spells from a related school. Or at least baring certain spell schools from being valid substutions. Summoning spells could NOT be replaced by Illusion, abjuration, evocation Evocation could not be replaced by necromancy, abjuration, summoning Illusion could not be replaced by summoning, necromancy. etc. You get the idea, I'm sure. Might also want to throw something in for Divination along the lines of "Divination spells may be substituted for by any spell of any school except illusion, so long as the spell is two or more levels higher than the one being substituted for. Likewise, Universal spells may be substuted for by any spell of any school, so long as the spell is of a higher level". Both these apply only to those who have the 3rd feat, as earlier feats don't open up cross-school substitution. Alternatly, maybe change Epic Ritual Substitution to read: "When casting a ritual you may substitute a spell of the same school of a single level lower, or of a higher level. This does not affect the ritual DC or end effect. Requires Improved Ritual Substitution" This change gets rid of the risk of all the problems that cross-school substitution could cause. This last option also provides the chance for a 4rth feat "Increased Substitution Range", which would add a single closely related school to the valid substitutions. (predetermined, eg Summoning would get conjuration or Necromancy, Evocation would probably get illusion or conjuring, Necromancy gets summoning, illusion gets evocation or conjuring, etc. (It would be a single choice, just I'm not sure exactly how it'd work out.
ShinQuickMan 01-05-05, 02:46 PM	These seem like pretty neat ideas (though I hardly know how epic levels work to begin with). Perhaps such a method could be used to cast nonepic-level spells (unless something like that already exists).
Zitchas 01-06-05, 06:25 AM	It probably could be, and it would deffinitly add more complexity and variety to the game, but that's a downside in and of itself. We already have very large numbers of spells at all levels (especially if you include all the expanded books such as Unearthed Arcana and the various Complete books), but we have very few epic spells. Likewise, we have this power gap beyond 20th level. On a very real level, the only difference betwen a 20th lvl wizard and a 40th is about a half dozen feats and a few stat increases, with no real change in actual spell power or overall ability. Possibly minor changes due to spellcasting ability boosts, but that's not exactly a whole lot. This improved system is designed to fill that hole. The downside (and the reason it shouldn't expanded too much into the none-epic levels is that almost every ritual is a DM adjudicated spell that requires the DM to make arbitrary calls as to what the limits and/or effects are, without any real guidance from official rule books, which adds to the DM's workload substantially.
grishenko 01-06-05, 09:03 AM	Wouldn't Death Ward be a problem for that "ability damage" danger? Just have the cleric give you Death Ward before you begin casting and you suddenly have no risk of damage...
Zitchas 01-06-05, 12:08 PM	Quite possibly, yes. The point is to make it riskier for none-undead to cast it, not to make it impossible. And Getting buff spells like that cast on you is deffinitly a good way to minimize risk, which is certainly acceptable. Alternatively, you could either try to make whichever stat is at risk be substantially higher than normal to mimize the effect (belt of constitution, Gloves of Dex, whatever apropriates. There's lots of said items).
Dreamknight 01-06-05, 10:48 PM	First, let me say that I like this idea a lot. I think it could be excellent. But I need some guidelines because I'm not especially good at adjudication (I've had little to no practice with it.) And players will want to create their own massive spell rituals. Create a new enclave similar to that of the Netherese, repair and enhance the Mythal of Myth Drannor whilst banishing all those who should not be there, turn armies of undead into dust, bind abominations… that kind of thing. Of course, the argument could be made that a new DM shouldn't be playing with epic levels (just to make sure no one takes offense, I'm referring to myself, as a new gamer).
Zitchas 01-07-05, 01:17 PM	Well, heading into the Epic levels does tend to complicate things quite a bit as it is, without adding variants to it. On the practical side, your players come up with a spell effect they want, and a quasi reasonable idea of what spells it should be composed of. The more powerfull the effect, the more spells it should take, and the higher the spellcraft DC. You then extract the cost of developing such a ritual from them (probably similar to researching normal epic spells, among other things). Your job is essentially to make sure that the expended ressources and spells is sufficient to balance the effect they want. You also have to rule when a spell is TOO powerfull. For example, if they want to make a spell that can essentially dire charm an entire city of a couple thousand people simultaneously, I'd rule it as either too powerfull, periode, or needing massive spell requirements. As in something along the lines of about three enchantment type spells per level (so about twenty seven spells there), and a regular epic level enchantment, plus the ritual spell. And the DC would probably be up around mid 50s to low sixties, assuming an average city. Seeing as it's assumed an automatic will save fail for every single one of those citzens... (who wants to roll out a couple thousand will saves for one spell....?) I'd also rule that if there's any high level NPCs (above lvl 10) in said town they get a save, probably vs whatever the save DC was for the epic level enchantment. Actually, when I get right down to it, it would be a rare day that I judged a spell absolutly too powerfull to let them contemplate. I would, however, make some spells come with such insane spell requirements that if they did manage to pull it off, they'd deserve it. (eg. Total Continental Domination: Dominates the entire continent to the caster's will. Probably need somewhere around a hundred or two enchantment spells, along with a dozen epic enchantments, and the entire thing would have a spellcraft DC equivalent to the dozen epic ones combined.) But yes, you wanted guidelines. I don't think I can really give much of a guideline for component spells, but I'd think the Spellcraft DC should be about equivalent to about half to full value of the total levels worth of spells involved. As a rough guideline. I'm sure someone can think of something better, though. Also compare to the effects of the listed Epic spells in the various core books (and especially epic level handbook), spells with similar effects and costs should have similar DCs.