Alterself <> Familiar [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alterself <> Familiar [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Varrik
04-27-04, 11:14 PM Hey, I did a search but didn't see anything, so please forgive me if this has already been discussed.

1) You can cast spells with range of "self" on your familiar, right?

2) Alterself is such a spell.

3) Your familiar is a magical beast.

Ergo, you can use this spell to turn your familiar into a fighting machine!! (Or at least really a really good support character.)

Let me know if you think this is a viable strategy.

and

What sorts of things one can turn a familiar into.....

(sorry if I've got this wrong, I'm on vacation and don't have my books with me to verify.)
Thanks!!
Ilium
04-28-04, 12:11 PM Works for me. This particular spell is fairly limited. Hit dice of the new form are limited to 5 or your caster level, whichever is lower, and the familiar basically doesn't get any special abilities/qualities except for armor and natural weapons.

I don't think it's broken and, in fact, I think it's cool.

Have to talk to my DM... :D
ehrin
04-28-04, 01:21 PM Just keep in mind that your new fighting machine will have to drag your wizard/sorcerer into Melee with it to be effective. The master and familiar must remain within 5 feet of each other for shared spells to remain effective.

So, your mage will be taking a lot of potential risk to have his familiar out there in melee.
Goreg Skullcrusher
04-28-04, 01:21 PM This is definately for the Wizard that's looking for style points. Why have a dog familiar, when you can get a Blink Dog? Cat? Psh, Krenshar. :D

Also, wolf --> Worg and lizard --> Shocker Lizard are fun too.
glenw77
04-28-04, 03:37 PM Originally posted by ehrin
Just keep in mind that your new fighting machine will have to drag your wizard/sorcerer into Melee with it to be effective. The master and familiar must remain within 5 feet of each other for shared spells to remain effective.

So, your mage will be taking a lot of potential risk to have his familiar out there in melee.

"Additionally, the master may cast a spell with a target of ?You? on his familiar (as a touch range spell) instead of on himself."

He only has to stay in 5feet if he want the spell to affect both of them. He can just cast it on the familiar and let it do its own thing
ehrin
04-28-04, 04:07 PM SRD:
Share Spells: At the master’s option, he may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) he casts on himself also affect his familiar. The familiar must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit.
If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the familiar if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the familiar again even if it returns to the master before the duration expires. Additionally, the master may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch range spell) instead of on himself.

The key word is additionally. To me, that means "in addition to", which means, in addition to the above rules, the caster can also cast the spell solely on the familiar (but the restrictions still apply). Is that an incorrect interpretation?
glenw77
04-28-04, 04:31 PM I believe that if they intended for it to be taken that way, then they would place the "You" range before listing the events that can deactivate the spell. It does not make sense, in my opinion, for them to tell you what you can do, then tell you what ends the effect, than add an addendum to the previous.

Also, "Any spell that he cast on himself" inherently implies that "You" spells are included. Another reason why it does not make sense for them to skip a few sentences before saying additionally if that is their intention.

I think if they ment to imply that you could choose to cast the spell only on the familiar and not yourself than they would have worded it differently. Also, I see little value in casting a spell only on your familiar and not yourself if the famiar must still remain within 5ft.

Oh...Yeah! Here it is

Tome and Blood, last paragraph on the subject, Pg 11, stipulates if you put the "You" spell specifically on the familiar, it stays with it for the whole duration of the spell.

There we go.
coofpsychycic
04-28-04, 04:58 PM morphing is illegal if you asked me

the familiar can be a battle icon,with effective spell work as
noted as directly effecting,from the caster,however summoning,or say a delayed casting,or alterself are disregaurded

also as a free action the extra's for familiars allow it the potential while not taking away,because of harsher spells being disallowed

if the familiar lives,as lvls go,then the radius etc for effects to stay gets better,also having some necessary spells available to it,that cost what the spell caster doesn't want to pay,for the next round of spells that will make use of a special expensive spell
ehrin
04-28-04, 06:51 PM thank you Glenw77!

that helps a lot!
Varrik
04-28-04, 09:49 PM Thanks for the responses.

And thanks to glenw77 for clearing that up for us.

Yes, I am aware of the limitations inherent in the Alterself spell.
But if you combine it with improved familiars, elemental familiars, alignment familiars, (un)holy familiars, I think the combinations of things you could get could be quite handy or surprising.

There must be some magical beasts or elementals with some serious natural armor or natural attacks out there.

The familiar in these cases acts as an semi-independent agent.
remember too that the familiar can use magic items, and in particular wands without having hands.

I think there is serious strategic value in this.
And for only a second level spell.

Any other thoughts?
Vaalingrade Ashland
04-28-04, 10:26 PM The only thing going through my mind right now is playing a sorcerer with Tenser's Transformation, proficient with the Greatsword and has a cat familar that he alters into a krenshar....

By the Power of Greyskull! I have the Power!

*cough*

Sorry. I think its a pretty nice use of the spell, balanced by the 5' 'leash'.
NightScreamer20
04-28-04, 10:54 PM Well I saw this and decided I could test this on you guys.

Spell Leash
This appears to be an ordinary black collar with a 30 ft. rope leash. However, when placed on a Wizard's or Sorcerer's familiar the collar becomes nothing more than a fine golden necklace, and the leach vanishes completely. Whilst wearing the collar the familiar may up to 30 ft. away from its master and still keep the abilities of a spell cast upon it that would otherwise stop. However, the familiar may not move more than 30 ft. away from the caster, as if an invisible force holds it back. Only a master may remove a familiar's collar. If the master who placed the collar upon the familiar is killed or vanishes from the plane his familiar is currently on, the collar falls off the familiar and going back to its original state.
Faint Transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item; animate rope, mage hand; Price 4,500(?) gp;
NightScreamer20
04-28-04, 10:54 PM -sorry duplicated-

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Varrik 04-27-04, 11:14 PM	Hey, I did a search but didn't see anything, so please forgive me if this has already been discussed. 1) You can cast spells with range of "self" on your familiar, right? 2) Alterself is such a spell. 3) Your familiar is a magical beast. Ergo, you can use this spell to turn your familiar into a fighting machine!! (Or at least really a really good support character.) Let me know if you think this is a viable strategy. and What sorts of things one can turn a familiar into..... (sorry if I've got this wrong, I'm on vacation and don't have my books with me to verify.) Thanks!!
Ilium 04-28-04, 12:11 PM	Works for me. This particular spell is fairly limited. Hit dice of the new form are limited to 5 or your caster level, whichever is lower, and the familiar basically doesn't get any special abilities/qualities except for armor and natural weapons. I don't think it's broken and, in fact, I think it's cool. Have to talk to my DM... :D
ehrin 04-28-04, 01:21 PM	Just keep in mind that your new fighting machine will have to drag your wizard/sorcerer into Melee with it to be effective. The master and familiar must remain within 5 feet of each other for shared spells to remain effective. So, your mage will be taking a lot of potential risk to have his familiar out there in melee.
Goreg Skullcrusher 04-28-04, 01:21 PM	This is definately for the Wizard that's looking for style points. Why have a dog familiar, when you can get a Blink Dog? Cat? Psh, Krenshar. :D Also, wolf --> Worg and lizard --> Shocker Lizard are fun too.
glenw77 04-28-04, 03:37 PM	Originally posted by ehrin Just keep in mind that your new fighting machine will have to drag your wizard/sorcerer into Melee with it to be effective. The master and familiar must remain within 5 feet of each other for shared spells to remain effective. So, your mage will be taking a lot of potential risk to have his familiar out there in melee. "Additionally, the master may cast a spell with a target of ?You? on his familiar (as a touch range spell) instead of on himself." He only has to stay in 5feet if he want the spell to affect both of them. He can just cast it on the familiar and let it do its own thing
ehrin 04-28-04, 04:07 PM	SRD: Share Spells: At the master’s option, he may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) he casts on himself also affect his familiar. The familiar must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the familiar if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the familiar again even if it returns to the master before the duration expires. Additionally, the master may cast a spell with a target of “You” on his familiar (as a touch range spell) instead of on himself. The key word is additionally. To me, that means "in addition to", which means, in addition to the above rules, the caster can also cast the spell solely on the familiar (but the restrictions still apply). Is that an incorrect interpretation?
glenw77 04-28-04, 04:31 PM	I believe that if they intended for it to be taken that way, then they would place the "You" range before listing the events that can deactivate the spell. It does not make sense, in my opinion, for them to tell you what you can do, then tell you what ends the effect, than add an addendum to the previous. Also, "Any spell that he cast on himself" inherently implies that "You" spells are included. Another reason why it does not make sense for them to skip a few sentences before saying additionally if that is their intention. I think if they ment to imply that you could choose to cast the spell only on the familiar and not yourself than they would have worded it differently. Also, I see little value in casting a spell only on your familiar and not yourself if the famiar must still remain within 5ft. Oh...Yeah! Here it is Tome and Blood, last paragraph on the subject, Pg 11, stipulates if you put the "You" spell specifically on the familiar, it stays with it for the whole duration of the spell. There we go.
coofpsychycic 04-28-04, 04:58 PM	morphing is illegal if you asked me the familiar can be a battle icon,with effective spell work as noted as directly effecting,from the caster,however summoning,or say a delayed casting,or alterself are disregaurded also as a free action the extra's for familiars allow it the potential while not taking away,because of harsher spells being disallowed if the familiar lives,as lvls go,then the radius etc for effects to stay gets better,also having some necessary spells available to it,that cost what the spell caster doesn't want to pay,for the next round of spells that will make use of a special expensive spell
ehrin 04-28-04, 06:51 PM	thank you Glenw77! that helps a lot!
Varrik 04-28-04, 09:49 PM	Thanks for the responses. And thanks to glenw77 for clearing that up for us. Yes, I am aware of the limitations inherent in the Alterself spell. But if you combine it with improved familiars, elemental familiars, alignment familiars, (un)holy familiars, I think the combinations of things you could get could be quite handy or surprising. There must be some magical beasts or elementals with some serious natural armor or natural attacks out there. The familiar in these cases acts as an semi-independent agent. remember too that the familiar can use magic items, and in particular wands without having hands. I think there is serious strategic value in this. And for only a second level spell. Any other thoughts?
Vaalingrade Ashland 04-28-04, 10:26 PM	The only thing going through my mind right now is playing a sorcerer with Tenser's Transformation, proficient with the Greatsword and has a cat familar that he alters into a krenshar.... By the Power of Greyskull! I have the Power! cough Sorry. I think its a pretty nice use of the spell, balanced by the 5' 'leash'.
NightScreamer20 04-28-04, 10:54 PM	Well I saw this and decided I could test this on you guys. Spell Leash This appears to be an ordinary black collar with a 30 ft. rope leash. However, when placed on a Wizard's or Sorcerer's familiar the collar becomes nothing more than a fine golden necklace, and the leach vanishes completely. Whilst wearing the collar the familiar may up to 30 ft. away from its master and still keep the abilities of a spell cast upon it that would otherwise stop. However, the familiar may not move more than 30 ft. away from the caster, as if an invisible force holds it back. Only a master may remove a familiar's collar. If the master who placed the collar upon the familiar is killed or vanishes from the plane his familiar is currently on, the collar falls off the familiar and going back to its original state. Faint Transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item; animate rope, mage hand; Price 4,500(?) gp;
NightScreamer20 04-28-04, 10:54 PM	-sorry duplicated-