Am I alone? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Am I alone? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Twink_007
12-16-05, 09:59 PM Am I the only one that doesn't know the wisdom of knowing which kind of magic to use? Sometimes, my players up and protest to rotate DM duty because of mistakes in magic usage. please help.
Novacat
12-16-05, 10:10 PM Uh... I know how to use the magic system. So there.
BladeDrinker
12-16-05, 10:43 PM You mean you confuse Divine and Arcane casters? Umm, maybe your players are right . . .
Vanigo
12-16-05, 11:21 PM You're going to have to explain your problem a bit better than that, I'm afraid. To take some shots in the dark:
As BladeDrinker said, if you are getting arcane and divine spellcasting confused, that's... kinda pathetic. It's dead simple: wizards, sorcerers, and bards use arcane spells; clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers use divine. It says so right in the class descriptions, and probably several other places as well. PrCs state whether they use arcane or divine magic.
If you're having trouble knowing what classes cast what spells, that's also pretty bad. If anything, it's even simpler: each class has a spell list, and they can cast the spells on it. When you find a spell in another book, the spell clearly lists what classes can use it.
In the less embarrasing problem category, if you're having trouble knowing which version of a spell a magic item emulates... well, it's still pretty simple, but considerably more obscure. If wizards can cast the spell, it emulates the wizard version. If wizards can't cast the spell but clerics can, use the cleric version. If clerics can't use it either... there's a whole list you go down, and I can't remember it all off the top of my head.
Are you getting spontaneous spellcasters and prepared spellcasters confused? Sorcerers and bards are spontaneous spellcasters. This means that they know a fixed number of spells (which is not, as some people think, affected by charisma), and choose which ones they cast when they cast them. They can only cast a limited number of spells of each spell level a day (which is affected by charisma). Prepared spellcasters, i.e. any spellcaster who's not a sorcerer or a bard (as long as we're only talking about base classes in core), work a little differently. They have a limited number of spell slots of each spell level, and each day they can fill these slots with memorized spells. Later, they can cast these spells, which expends the spell slot. That spell slot is now empty, and can't be refilled until the next day.
Let's see, what else could you mean... no one could possibly mistake one spell level for another... are you just having your NPCs casting spells in tactically stupid ways? In that case, the best thing to do is just slow down and think about what you're doing. That and practice.
Or are you trying to use spells for things that make sense but aren't strictly allowed by the rules, like using a lightning bolt to electrocute everyone standing on a big metal plate? If that's the case, and you're the DM, go for it - just be fair and let your players be creative, too, and tell them that you'll be liberal about things like that.

Only other thing I can think of at the moment is you might just be completely lost and have no idea where to start.
Karn Dragonsbane
12-17-05, 08:40 AM Or perhaps you mean you don´t know which spell to use. That´s easy... it´s learnt with experience. Not Char´s, yours!
If I might suggest, try starting with a level 1 character. Seems you´re the DM, so yes, it´ll have to be rotated.
Karn Dragonsbane
12-17-05, 08:46 AM Sorry about the doublepost. I was just thinking...
There is another idea. You can run a campaign with all damaging spells and spell-likes banned from usage. It will not lose color, I assure you. The casters might still learn the spells, use their spellcraft skill to ID things and use item-creation feats, but they´ll have to rely on other tricks for winning fights. If your problem is so large, then I´m sure this medication won´t be worse than the disease.
Nephlite
12-17-05, 08:51 AM Am I the only one that doesn't know the wisdom of knowing which kind of magic to use? Sometimes, my players up and protest to rotate DM duty because of mistakes in magic usage. please help.
Try not to lean on Damage dealing spells: use other types.
1) Summons (if druid)
2) bad effect ones (like Grease helps rogues get Sneak attacks due to balance skill rules), ray of enfeeblement against big tough guys
3) Colorspray is useful most of the time due to fact effects never not working

So which type of casters do you have trouble with?
Sarge
12-18-05, 06:53 PM I'm not honestly surprised there would be some difficulty understanding the magic system, it's fairly complex. It took me a few months to truly grasp some of its finer points.

The first thing you need to understand is that arcane and divine is the important factor, not the class spell lists. Most people look over the bard spells for instance and think that is the full extent of what their bard can cast. This is just not true. A bard, being able to cast arcane spells, can cast any arcane spell. This means any wizard, sorcerer or bard spell, since those are all arcane spells.

Clerics who can cast divine spells can pick any spell from the divine lists: cleric, druid, paladin and ranger. Further you add the spells from your two domains directly to your spell list.

The individual class lists were made mostly just to help simplify things for people and offer a list of generic spells for each class. Remember though that the important distinction is arcane versus divine spell. Here's a simple list to help you figure out which is which.

Arcane: Bard, Wizard and Sorcerer lists
Divine: Ranger, Paladin, Cleric and Druid lists.

I hope that clarifies any problems you may have.

Happy gaming!
green_yawgmoth
12-18-05, 07:37 PM Sorry about the doublepost. I was just thinking...
There is another idea. You can run a campaign with all damaging spells and spell-likes banned from usage. It will not lose color, I assure you. The casters might still learn the spells, use their spellcraft skill to ID things and use item-creation feats, but they´ll have to rely on other tricks for winning fights. If your problem is so large, then I´m sure this medication won´t be worse than the disease.
Wait, what? :uh-huh: So, you're suggesting making the cleric and druid into 3/4 BaB fighters with healing, and wizard/sorcerers into item making NPCs, essentially. And this is your "fix" for not understanding magic? What ever happened to reading the PHB? It's really not that difficult a concept, as shown above.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Vanigo
12-18-05, 09:14 PM I'm not honestly surprised there would be some difficulty understanding the magic system, it's fairly complex. It took me a few months to truly grasp some of its finer points.

The first thing you need to understand is that arcane and divine is the important factor, not the class spell lists. Most people look over the bard spells for instance and think that is the full extent of what their bard can cast. This is just not true. A bard, being able to cast arcane spells, can cast any arcane spell. This means any wizard, sorcerer or bard spell, since those are all arcane spells.

Clerics who can cast divine spells can pick any spell from the divine lists: cleric, druid, paladin and ranger. Further you add the spells from your two domains directly to your spell list.

The individual class lists were made mostly just to help simplify things for people and offer a list of generic spells for each class. Remember though that the important distinction is arcane versus divine spell. Here's a simple list to help you figure out which is which.

Arcane: Bard, Wizard and Sorcerer lists
Divine: Ranger, Paladin, Cleric and Druid lists.

I hope that clarifies any problems you may have.

Happy gaming!
That's... completely wrong. Each class can cast only the spells on its class list. It's very simple to verify this in the case of divine casters:
Divine spellcasters do not require spellbooks. However, such a character's spell selection is limited to the spells on the list for his or her class (see Chapter 11: Spells). Clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers have separate spell lists.
It's pretty simple for sorcerers and bards, too:
Adding Spells to a Sorcerer's or Bard's Repertoire: A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his calss and never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a new level, consult Table 3-5: Bard Spells Known or Table 3-17: Sorcerer Spells Known to learn how many spells from the appropriate spell list in Chapter 11: Spells he now knows. (emphasis mine)
For wizards, I can only find one spot to confirm this:
A wizard casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to sorcerers and bards). which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192).It says they're the same type of spells available to sorcerers and bards (i.e. arcane), but this does not mean that they're the same individial spells, just that they're the same type. It's like saying the goldfish in this bowl are the same type as the goldfish in that bowl, which does not mean that both groups of fish are identical.
mvincent
12-19-05, 02:36 AM That's... completely wrong.Sarge appears to post incorrect information on purpose... to elicit outraged responses. I believe the board rules do not allow me to outrightly call someone a troll, but lets just say he seems to have remarkable regenerative powers.

As for the original poster: I'm not positive he's for real either, but he could probably give more details if he wants serious, thoughtful answers.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Twink_007 12-16-05, 09:59 PM	Am I the only one that doesn't know the wisdom of knowing which kind of magic to use? Sometimes, my players up and protest to rotate DM duty because of mistakes in magic usage. please help.
Novacat 12-16-05, 10:10 PM	Uh... I know how to use the magic system. So there.
BladeDrinker 12-16-05, 10:43 PM	You mean you confuse Divine and Arcane casters? Umm, maybe your players are right . . .
Vanigo 12-16-05, 11:21 PM	You're going to have to explain your problem a bit better than that, I'm afraid. To take some shots in the dark: As BladeDrinker said, if you are getting arcane and divine spellcasting confused, that's... kinda pathetic. It's dead simple: wizards, sorcerers, and bards use arcane spells; clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers use divine. It says so right in the class descriptions, and probably several other places as well. PrCs state whether they use arcane or divine magic. If you're having trouble knowing what classes cast what spells, that's also pretty bad. If anything, it's even simpler: each class has a spell list, and they can cast the spells on it. When you find a spell in another book, the spell clearly lists what classes can use it. In the less embarrasing problem category, if you're having trouble knowing which version of a spell a magic item emulates... well, it's still pretty simple, but considerably more obscure. If wizards can cast the spell, it emulates the wizard version. If wizards can't cast the spell but clerics can, use the cleric version. If clerics can't use it either... there's a whole list you go down, and I can't remember it all off the top of my head. Are you getting spontaneous spellcasters and prepared spellcasters confused? Sorcerers and bards are spontaneous spellcasters. This means that they know a fixed number of spells (which is not, as some people think, affected by charisma), and choose which ones they cast when they cast them. They can only cast a limited number of spells of each spell level a day (which is affected by charisma). Prepared spellcasters, i.e. any spellcaster who's not a sorcerer or a bard (as long as we're only talking about base classes in core), work a little differently. They have a limited number of spell slots of each spell level, and each day they can fill these slots with memorized spells. Later, they can cast these spells, which expends the spell slot. That spell slot is now empty, and can't be refilled until the next day. Let's see, what else could you mean... no one could possibly mistake one spell level for another... are you just having your NPCs casting spells in tactically stupid ways? In that case, the best thing to do is just slow down and think about what you're doing. That and practice. Or are you trying to use spells for things that make sense but aren't strictly allowed by the rules, like using a lightning bolt to electrocute everyone standing on a big metal plate? If that's the case, and you're the DM, go for it - just be fair and let your players be creative, too, and tell them that you'll be liberal about things like that. Only other thing I can think of at the moment is you might just be completely lost and have no idea where to start.
Karn Dragonsbane 12-17-05, 08:40 AM	Or perhaps you mean you don´t know which spell to use. That´s easy... it´s learnt with experience. Not Char´s, yours! If I might suggest, try starting with a level 1 character. Seems you´re the DM, so yes, it´ll have to be rotated.
Karn Dragonsbane 12-17-05, 08:46 AM	Sorry about the doublepost. I was just thinking... There is another idea. You can run a campaign with all damaging spells and spell-likes banned from usage. It will not lose color, I assure you. The casters might still learn the spells, use their spellcraft skill to ID things and use item-creation feats, but they´ll have to rely on other tricks for winning fights. If your problem is so large, then I´m sure this medication won´t be worse than the disease.
Nephlite 12-17-05, 08:51 AM	Am I the only one that doesn't know the wisdom of knowing which kind of magic to use? Sometimes, my players up and protest to rotate DM duty because of mistakes in magic usage. please help. Try not to lean on Damage dealing spells: use other types. 1) Summons (if druid) 2) bad effect ones (like Grease helps rogues get Sneak attacks due to balance skill rules), ray of enfeeblement against big tough guys 3) Colorspray is useful most of the time due to fact effects never not working So which type of casters do you have trouble with?
Sarge 12-18-05, 06:53 PM	I'm not honestly surprised there would be some difficulty understanding the magic system, it's fairly complex. It took me a few months to truly grasp some of its finer points. The first thing you need to understand is that arcane and divine is the important factor, not the class spell lists. Most people look over the bard spells for instance and think that is the full extent of what their bard can cast. This is just not true. A bard, being able to cast arcane spells, can cast any arcane spell. This means any wizard, sorcerer or bard spell, since those are all arcane spells. Clerics who can cast divine spells can pick any spell from the divine lists: cleric, druid, paladin and ranger. Further you add the spells from your two domains directly to your spell list. The individual class lists were made mostly just to help simplify things for people and offer a list of generic spells for each class. Remember though that the important distinction is arcane versus divine spell. Here's a simple list to help you figure out which is which. Arcane: Bard, Wizard and Sorcerer lists Divine: Ranger, Paladin, Cleric and Druid lists. I hope that clarifies any problems you may have. Happy gaming!
green_yawgmoth 12-18-05, 07:37 PM	Sorry about the doublepost. I was just thinking... There is another idea. You can run a campaign with all damaging spells and spell-likes banned from usage. It will not lose color, I assure you. The casters might still learn the spells, use their spellcraft skill to ID things and use item-creation feats, but they´ll have to rely on other tricks for winning fights. If your problem is so large, then I´m sure this medication won´t be worse than the disease. Wait, what? :uh-huh: So, you're suggesting making the cleric and druid into 3/4 BaB fighters with healing, and wizard/sorcerers into item making NPCs, essentially. And this is your "fix" for not understanding magic? What ever happened to reading the PHB? It's really not that difficult a concept, as shown above. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Vanigo 12-18-05, 09:14 PM	I'm not honestly surprised there would be some difficulty understanding the magic system, it's fairly complex. It took me a few months to truly grasp some of its finer points. The first thing you need to understand is that arcane and divine is the important factor, not the class spell lists. Most people look over the bard spells for instance and think that is the full extent of what their bard can cast. This is just not true. A bard, being able to cast arcane spells, can cast any arcane spell. This means any wizard, sorcerer or bard spell, since those are all arcane spells. Clerics who can cast divine spells can pick any spell from the divine lists: cleric, druid, paladin and ranger. Further you add the spells from your two domains directly to your spell list. The individual class lists were made mostly just to help simplify things for people and offer a list of generic spells for each class. Remember though that the important distinction is arcane versus divine spell. Here's a simple list to help you figure out which is which. Arcane: Bard, Wizard and Sorcerer lists Divine: Ranger, Paladin, Cleric and Druid lists. I hope that clarifies any problems you may have. Happy gaming! That's... completely wrong. Each class can cast only the spells on its class list. It's very simple to verify this in the case of divine casters: Divine spellcasters do not require spellbooks. However, such a character's spell selection is limited to the spells on the list for his or her class (see Chapter 11: Spells). Clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers have separate spell lists. It's pretty simple for sorcerers and bards, too: Adding Spells to a Sorcerer's or Bard's Repertoire: A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his calss and never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a new level, consult Table 3-5: Bard Spells Known or Table 3-17: Sorcerer Spells Known to learn how many spells from the appropriate spell list in Chapter 11: Spells he now knows. (emphasis mine) For wizards, I can only find one spot to confirm this: A wizard casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to sorcerers and bards). which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (page 192).It says they're the same type of spells available to sorcerers and bards (i.e. arcane), but this does not mean that they're the same individial spells, just that they're the same type. It's like saying the goldfish in this bowl are the same type as the goldfish in that bowl, which does not mean that both groups of fish are identical.
mvincent 12-19-05, 02:36 AM	That's... completely wrong.Sarge appears to post incorrect information on purpose... to elicit outraged responses. I believe the board rules do not allow me to outrightly call someone a troll, but lets just say he seems to have remarkable regenerative powers. As for the original poster: I'm not positive he's for real either, but he could probably give more details if he wants serious, thoughtful answers.