Am I understanding Sleet Storm correctly? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Am I understanding Sleet Storm correctly? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dag
03-18-08, 12:51 AM To preface the post let me say that I don't think the spell is over-powered, I have no desire to ban it from my game, I just want to make sure I'm understanding the spell properly as the sorcerer in my game uses it often. Any opinions or advice are appreciated.

It's a short description, so I'll tackle the spell one point at a time.

1 - Blocks all sight within and causes the ground to be icy. No problem there really, I'm assuming that creatures within the 40 foot radius storm cannot see, but those outside of the storm can see them and can target them with spells. Rogues get sneat attack (if within 30) and all blindness penalties apply.

2 - A creature can walkwithin or through the area of sleet at half normal speed with a DC 10 balance check. The key word being walk. So, if the opponent makes his DC 10 balance check he can walk at half speed. Walk implies to me that he can move his normal speed, no double move, no X3 or X4 run. I have been letting my monsters double move at half speed assuming that "hustle" might be considered a fast walk. My players haven't complained at all because of the double movement, but I'm wondering if I may be cheating them a bit or giving aid to the monsters that are contrary to what the spell allows. Any input on that?

I have been trying to be fair with my players, and since the spell causes blindness the monsters dont really know which route is the quickest to get out of the spell. I generally have them continue to move toward the party or retreat away from the party, unless they have allies outside of the storm to direct them.

The rest of the spell is self explanatory. No real issues or problems, just a DM wanting to make the right call or wanting to be set straight if he isn't.
Thanks.
Vegepygmy
03-18-08, 01:00 AM 1 - Blocks all sight within and causes the ground to be icy. No problem there really, I'm assuming that creatures within the 40 foot radius storm cannot see, but those outside of the storm can see them and can target them with spells.No, probably not. The rules for concealment (PHB, page 152) suggest that if your line of sight passes through a square that provides total concealment (i.e., blocks sight), your target has total concealment from you. It's not (usually) a one-way deal.

Rogues get sneat attack (if within 30) and all blindness penalties apply.If the target has concealment (even just normal 20% concealment, much less total concealment), a rogue is denied his sneak attack.

2 - A creature can walkwithin or through the area of sleet at half normal speed with a DC 10 balance check. The key word being walk. So, if the opponent makes his DC 10 balance check he can walk at half speed. Walk implies to me that he can move his normal speed, no double move, no X3 or X4 run.I disagree. "Walk" to me means at one-half speed, as stated in the spell description, not necessarily that you can't double move (or even Run with an appropriate Balance check).
Dag
03-18-08, 01:29 AM Vegepygmy, thanks for responding. You and I seem to disagree on the spell, and I'm not certain which of us is right, so I'll just respond to what you say and hopefully I'll be able to draw a more certain solution one way or the other that I can go with in my game.

No, probably not. The rules for concealment (PHB, page 152) suggest that if your line of sight passes through a square that provides total concealment (i.e., blocks sight), your target has total concealment from you. It's not (usually) a one-way deal.

Unlike spells like fog cloud and other such spells Sleet Storm doesn't say that it provides concealment, it says, "Driving sleet blocks all sight within it..." So I don't see it as a concealment issue, those creatures in the sleet are just blind, I assume because sleet and snow are whipping in their eyes not because the sleet is so heavy that it grants concealment. A more in depth description of this spell would have helped, as it could be taken either way. I sort of agree with you though, and I ruled it as you just mentioned in game until a player gave me his interpretation after the session and I was swayed.

If the target has concealment (even just normal 20% concealment, much less total concealment), a rogue is denied his sneak attack.

Same response as above.

I disagree. "Walk" to me means at one-half speed, as stated in the spell description, not necessarily that you can't double move (or even Run with an appropriate Balance check).

I thought the same as you at first, but the more I read the spell the word "walk" kept standing out to me. Because they specifically use the word "walk" rather than saying move at half speed or half movement I wondered if they truly meant walk.
The movements are divided into four categories (pg. 162 PHB), those categories are walk, hustle, run X3, and run X4. So I'm wondering if walk means walk. I think that the spell should allow for double movement or run if the balance check is made, but as it is written I have a hard time thinking that it does.

If the spell functions as you see it (and for all I know it does) then it is a very weak spell.
Vegepygmy
03-19-08, 12:37 AM If the spell functions as you see it (and for all I know it does) then it is a very weak spell.I disagree with that conclusion. Sleet storm is an excellent battlefield control spell for its level.
rimble
03-19-08, 10:37 AM Well, you're effectively blind, which causes half movement, and the floor is icy, which also requires Balance checks and half movement. Don't concentrate on the exact wording of the spells, but instead look at the conditions it is causing.

If someone were blind on a frozen lake, how do you think they should move?

I'd say you can use a Move Action to move half your speed after making the Balance check. If you want to move again with your Standard Action then you need to make another Balance check. If you can somehow still see via spells or other senses to negate the half-movement caused by blindness, then you could also use the Accelerated Movement option of the Balance skill to move quicker.

I'd probably give Concealment through and into the radius, and the Blind (and Balancing) condition to those within.
Rebel7284
03-19-08, 12:00 PM My understanding is that it grants concealment. It's not magical concealment, as it's the natural sleet/rain that causes it, but it's concealment never the less.
jaelis
03-19-08, 03:25 PM I agree... all squares within the effect block line of sight, and you can move half your speed using a move action and a balance check. I would rule it counts as difficult terrain, so you couldn't run or charge and you'd take penalties on tumble etc.
Tsuul
03-19-08, 03:46 PM I am going to echo Vegepygmy.

Blocks all sight, means all sight.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dag 03-18-08, 12:51 AM	To preface the post let me say that I don't think the spell is over-powered, I have no desire to ban it from my game, I just want to make sure I'm understanding the spell properly as the sorcerer in my game uses it often. Any opinions or advice are appreciated. It's a short description, so I'll tackle the spell one point at a time. 1 - Blocks all sight within and causes the ground to be icy. No problem there really, I'm assuming that creatures within the 40 foot radius storm cannot see, but those outside of the storm can see them and can target them with spells. Rogues get sneat attack (if within 30) and all blindness penalties apply. 2 - A creature can walkwithin or through the area of sleet at half normal speed with a DC 10 balance check. The key word being walk. So, if the opponent makes his DC 10 balance check he can walk at half speed. Walk implies to me that he can move his normal speed, no double move, no X3 or X4 run. I have been letting my monsters double move at half speed assuming that "hustle" might be considered a fast walk. My players haven't complained at all because of the double movement, but I'm wondering if I may be cheating them a bit or giving aid to the monsters that are contrary to what the spell allows. Any input on that? I have been trying to be fair with my players, and since the spell causes blindness the monsters dont really know which route is the quickest to get out of the spell. I generally have them continue to move toward the party or retreat away from the party, unless they have allies outside of the storm to direct them. The rest of the spell is self explanatory. No real issues or problems, just a DM wanting to make the right call or wanting to be set straight if he isn't. Thanks.
Vegepygmy 03-18-08, 01:00 AM	1 - Blocks all sight within and causes the ground to be icy. No problem there really, I'm assuming that creatures within the 40 foot radius storm cannot see, but those outside of the storm can see them and can target them with spells.No, probably not. The rules for concealment (PHB, page 152) suggest that if your line of sight passes through a square that provides total concealment (i.e., blocks sight), your target has total concealment from you. It's not (usually) a one-way deal. Rogues get sneat attack (if within 30) and all blindness penalties apply.If the target has concealment (even just normal 20% concealment, much less total concealment), a rogue is denied his sneak attack. 2 - A creature can walkwithin or through the area of sleet at half normal speed with a DC 10 balance check. The key word being walk. So, if the opponent makes his DC 10 balance check he can walk at half speed. Walk implies to me that he can move his normal speed, no double move, no X3 or X4 run.I disagree. "Walk" to me means at one-half speed, as stated in the spell description, not necessarily that you can't double move (or even Run with an appropriate Balance check).
Dag 03-18-08, 01:29 AM	Vegepygmy, thanks for responding. You and I seem to disagree on the spell, and I'm not certain which of us is right, so I'll just respond to what you say and hopefully I'll be able to draw a more certain solution one way or the other that I can go with in my game. No, probably not. The rules for concealment (PHB, page 152) suggest that if your line of sight passes through a square that provides total concealment (i.e., blocks sight), your target has total concealment from you. It's not (usually) a one-way deal. Unlike spells like fog cloud and other such spells Sleet Storm doesn't say that it provides concealment, it says, "Driving sleet blocks all sight within it..." So I don't see it as a concealment issue, those creatures in the sleet are just blind, I assume because sleet and snow are whipping in their eyes not because the sleet is so heavy that it grants concealment. A more in depth description of this spell would have helped, as it could be taken either way. I sort of agree with you though, and I ruled it as you just mentioned in game until a player gave me his interpretation after the session and I was swayed. If the target has concealment (even just normal 20% concealment, much less total concealment), a rogue is denied his sneak attack. Same response as above. I disagree. "Walk" to me means at one-half speed, as stated in the spell description, not necessarily that you can't double move (or even Run with an appropriate Balance check). I thought the same as you at first, but the more I read the spell the word "walk" kept standing out to me. Because they specifically use the word "walk" rather than saying move at half speed or half movement I wondered if they truly meant walk. The movements are divided into four categories (pg. 162 PHB), those categories are walk, hustle, run X3, and run X4. So I'm wondering if walk means walk. I think that the spell should allow for double movement or run if the balance check is made, but as it is written I have a hard time thinking that it does. If the spell functions as you see it (and for all I know it does) then it is a very weak spell.
Vegepygmy 03-19-08, 12:37 AM	If the spell functions as you see it (and for all I know it does) then it is a very weak spell.I disagree with that conclusion. Sleet storm is an excellent battlefield control spell for its level.
rimble 03-19-08, 10:37 AM	Well, you're effectively blind, which causes half movement, and the floor is icy, which also requires Balance checks and half movement. Don't concentrate on the exact wording of the spells, but instead look at the conditions it is causing. If someone were blind on a frozen lake, how do you think they should move? I'd say you can use a Move Action to move half your speed after making the Balance check. If you want to move again with your Standard Action then you need to make another Balance check. If you can somehow still see via spells or other senses to negate the half-movement caused by blindness, then you could also use the Accelerated Movement option of the Balance skill to move quicker. I'd probably give Concealment through and into the radius, and the Blind (and Balancing) condition to those within.
Rebel7284 03-19-08, 12:00 PM	My understanding is that it grants concealment. It's not magical concealment, as it's the natural sleet/rain that causes it, but it's concealment never the less.
jaelis 03-19-08, 03:25 PM	I agree... all squares within the effect block line of sight, and you can move half your speed using a move action and a balance check. I would rule it counts as difficult terrain, so you couldn't run or charge and you'd take penalties on tumble etc.
Tsuul 03-19-08, 03:46 PM	I am going to echo Vegepygmy. Blocks all sight, means all sight.